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Etoy: It's Not Over Yet

Posted by jamie on Thu Dec 30, 1999 12:45 PM
from the top-of-the-ninth dept.
Yesterday, while the management of eToys was faxing, calling, and emailing the media to get its story out, its legal team had sent a very different message. You probably saw our pointer to the Wired story which claimed the toy company had "given up." No such luck. The story behind the scenes was a little different. Click for more.

It's one thing to drop a lawsuit. It's another to "move away" from it. According to Chris Truax, the lawyer for the Etoy art group, which version the media heard depended on what time they were in touch with the eToys management. The initial version, he claims, was that eToys was dropping the suit. A later version was that they were "backing away" from the suit. A third version reassured the press that a precondition specified in the legal document was never intended to be a demand - only a request.

To see how the coverage changed throughout Wednesday, see the first Wired story, then the NYT/CNET story, the Yahoo/TheStandard story, and then the second Wired story.

The problem was that eToys.legal was not working from the same playbook as eToys.PR. The precondition, clearly a showstopper, also calls into question whether the giant toy firm has a clue about what is really at stake.

That precondition was:

"to give good faith consideration, as our neighbor on the Internet, to concentrating the profanity, nudity and violence that is sometimes part of the etoy corporation message on etoy corporation's other websites."

Asking artists to censor their work, of course, flies like a lead wheelbarrow. At the same time the company spokesman was saying "our intent was never to silence free artistic expression," their legal team was doing precisely that. The entire short letter in which this request was made was focused on finding a resolution to the perceived problem of "profanity, nudity, and violence," and concluded by noting that co-existence was possible if "etoy corporation will respond favorably to this proposal."

The later Wired story quotes eToys management as putting this spin on it:

"This is a simple, straightforward, good-faith effort on our part to resolve this matter. We are asking that they make good-faith efforts to put some of the material that kids and parents might find offensive on another part of the site."

They can repeat the words "good faith" all they like, but that doesn't make this any less censorship. Imagine operating as an artist, knowing that for the rest of your tenure with the Etoy art group you must work very carefully not to put material inappropriate for children too close to your homepage. One use of the F-word already led to this lawsuit; how hair-trigger would the lawyers be the second time around? You'd want to tone down your message, lest you be accused of working in "bad faith."

But maybe this letter was just badly worded; perhaps there was a miscommunication somewhere between the PR and the legal departments.

Or, maybe this whole episode was a cynical attempt to calm down the activist community and get the story out of the public eye.

Think about what eToys is really saying. They have cost the art group a fair amount of money in legal bills and have shut down their website for (to date) a month. Now they say they want to walk away as long as Etoy does the same.

If someone came onto your property, stole your computer - and then a month later, after you'd spent thousands of dollars trying to get it back, offered to return it on the condition that you promised not to sue - would you be inclined to accept that condition?

How would you feel if they asked you to make a "good-faith effort" not to use your computer to write any "profanity"?

Chris Truax stopped short of saying whether Etoy would or would not continue their defensive countersuit if eToys' original suit were dropped, saying only "if the suit is dropped unilaterally, that's a very positive step." In my talks with him, he has seemed committed to finding a way to settle this matter without resorting to a knock-down, drag-out court battle, and he has said he'd like to help eToys management to educate themselves about being good netizens.

But he also pointed out several times that "the devil is in the details." And, of course, he's right. This whole mess won't be over until it's over.

It's a shame that the courts are still seeing issues like these at the end of 1999; those in positions of power should have learned about being good netizens by now. Etoy's story isn't all that unusual. While the art group has been under fire, there have been simultaneous attacks on the scholarly arts organization Leonardo and a computer club which happens to share the same initials as the BBC. Stay tuned.

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  • by SEWilco (27983) on Thursday December 30 1999, @07:54AM (#1432039) Homepage Journal
    That web site had a lady's ankle visible! Horrors!
  • by SLOfuse (68448) on Thursday December 30 1999, @07:57AM (#1432040)
    Even if etoy.com was a hard core porn site, etoys should have no moral or legal rights to do what they did. etoy.com is not bound by US laws. At most, US authorities might someday take it upon themselves selectively ban "incoming" material thru filtering techniques etc (which in itself would be a horrendous state of affairs), but there is no justification for suspending registration of the etoy.com domain. THEY HAVE NO FUCKING JURISDICTION. (Now slashdot will have to shut down for offensive language.)
  • by scumdamn (82357) on Thursday December 30 1999, @08:00AM (#1432042)
    Etoy is in a position of strength. eToys' trademark application was overturned, Etoy was there first, eToys is backing down, it's time to fight the hell out of this in many ways. This should go to court, and eToys will almost definitely lose. Then Etoy could proceed with their lawsuit and have eToys by the short hairs. Imagine the dive Etoys' stock would take then. Etoy needs to fight this one to the extent possible. Many good things could come of it. Other corporations may reconsider bullying the little guys, a precedent just might be set, and Etoys would learn that they can't throw their little weight.com around just becaused they've IPO'd.
  • How many times is a big corperation (the #3 holiday toy seller) true to its word? Very rarely...

    Of course eToys will continue to attack eToy. The reasoning behind that statement is simple - The Calendar. eToys, does not want eToy active during the Holiday season because newbies on the internet may acidentally go there... So they will try and shut it down once and for all rather than just knock it out during every big sale period.

    Am I missing something?
  • Things like this will just keep popping up if we don't make an example of eToys. We need to raise such a big stink that the media picks up on it and eToys gets bad publicity. If they start loosing customers left and right they will listen, believe me. The unofficial rules of the net are made by us users as a whole.

    It is not enough that they drop the lawsuit. They have gotten what they wanted, to have etoy.com down for the xmas season. Next year they'll find some other excuse.
  • The root of this whole mess are the facts that EToys has money, NSI has control over DNS, and the US justice system has more than its reasonable share of ignorant jurisdiction over the Internet. It's a fact that if Etoy's and EToys' positions were reversed, that EToys' domain name would not have been impounded. This needs to be publicized outside of regular Internet news outlets to inform the public of yet another area of activity where money and influence yields undeserved/unnecessary/unethical power.
  • by bons (119581) on Thursday December 30 1999, @08:08AM (#1432051) Homepage Journal
    What remains of ETOY [146.228.204.72]
    Protest.net's overview of this mess [protest.net]
    RTMarks's etoy page [rtmark.com]
    ETOYS stock value [altavista.com] in the past month accoring to Alta Vista
    A better stock picture [yahoo.com] from yahoo.

    At this rate, ETOYS will be worthless soon enough. How low does it have to fall before it simply ceases to exist in it's current form? In this age of internet stocks being so highly valued how can ETOYS not realize the damage this has caused them? How can they be so blind?

    Perhaps they have forgotten that we talk to each other. Perhaps they have forgotten that we can hear all sides of the stories. perhaps they have forgotten that we could have been their market and their investors had they not done this.

    Perhaps they're just blind.

  • I'd ask if anyone was surprised at this, but judging from the posts yesterday, ("Oh yay, EToys has changed their mind, they're good guys again") I guess the answer is yes.

    EToys never claimed to be dropping the suit--only "backing off," which means, precisely, whatever they want it to. Trying to censor in good faith is apparently what they meant by backing off.

    If this is ever resolved satisfactorily, I urge everyone who has been boycotting EToys to _continue_ the boycott. They deserve (and have from the beginning) punitive measures brought against them for the damage they've done to the etoy group.

  • by reptilian (75755) on Thursday December 30 1999, @08:09AM (#1432054)
    The US didn't shut down the site, NSI did. They *do* have jurisdiction, as they're the ones that handle domain names. They didn't shut down the site completely, just supended the domain name. I'm not sure of the legal implications of this - it's an american company, under US jurisdiction, so I would assume that the US courts *do* have jurisdiction over .com/net/org TLDs, regardless of the geographical location of the site. If I were them, and I ever got the name back, I'd switch to a provider in another country ASAP.

    Man's unique agony as a species consists in his perpetual conflict between the desire to stand out and the need to blend in.

  • LO!
    This is the funniest SUBJECT line I've seen for a long time, never mind the message content.

    Oh, this is gonna make the laugh for a looong time. It's so Zippy.

    Ankles!

    :)
    Man, I need to take some time off.


    Pope
  • It really is unfortunate that things went in this direction. We all know that Etoy was there first, and the case should be very clear; things don't always work out the way you expect them.

    How so?

    I'd imagine that the claims of conspiracy (the Xmas fiasco) have quite a bit of merit, but somehow I predict that this will ring the same responses. Who's to say that EToys didn't *say* they were backing off to fix their public image, all while their legal department had a field day with Etoy. It is a possibility.

    Since this is an old issue, isn't there something we can do about it? Contacting Etoys with nice well-thought-out responses would always be nice, but I mean a more "fit to print" solution. We're a pretty big community, but the fact of the matter is that we're a specific group that is no target. But we do have access to other people. Why not have our own publicity campaign that actually releases the facts of this case, and tell as many friends as we can about what is going on.

    Our power will be completely wasted if we don't use it to hit them where it counts, and why they started this whole thing: In their pocketbook. The proposed boycott isn't enough if it's only us... we need more. This is enough indication that at least their legal department just doesn't get it.

    So make them.
  • by netpuppy (77874) on Thursday December 30 1999, @08:15AM (#1432058) Homepage
    How about a countersuit claiming product recognition problems and trademark dilution? If the domain name was there first, and the trademark status favors etoy, they should just go for the jugular and bring down etoys.com altogether.

  • Don't pretend that every side has been heard in full. Even on Slashdot. That's not to say there's editorial bias here - I don't believe there is - but, rather, that there's a limited amount of space and an unlimited number of opinions amongst the different sides. Something clearly won't fit.

    IF eToys argument is "hey, do what you like, but can you keep the stuff that's age-inappropriate off the public pages", then I don't see the problem. Anyone capable of setting up a web page is more than capable of setting up an .htaccess file, and anyone capable of thought is capable of deciding if something is "age-inappropriate".

    That's not censorship, as it doesn't tell anyone what they can do or say, it merely says "uh - can everyone agree to be mature about this?" I don't see anything the matter with that. It doesn't hurt to use your noggin.

    But that's a BIG "if", and the implication of the article was that their legal department didn't necessarily think the same way.

    If the eToys argument is that "you show what we say, and nothing more", then they deserve to be forced to eat Haggis, Black Pudding and mushy peas, with HP sauce. On National Television. Without throwing up. Even after being told what goes in them.

    I don't agree with censorship, but I don't have any problem with two web sites trying to find some kind of common ground so that they can talk this over like human beings.

  • by Deluge (94014) on Thursday December 30 1999, @08:16AM (#1432060)
    Off ZDNet (but of course)

    ETOYS DROPS SUIT AGAINST ARTISTS. Public outcry led toy site to abandon action against artists using eToy.com.

    Uh huh... "dropped" the lawsuit eh? Ya don't say. I wonder how much this "ad space" cost Etoys? :)

    ---

  • OK, suppose US courts do have jurisdiction over NSI. Does NSI have an AUP that controls the content of websites with .com, .net, .org TLD's? I don't think so. There are an awful lot of porn .com sites out there that are not being shut down.
    EVEN if etoy WAS a porn site (which it is not), it should not have been suspended. Etoys the toy company, effectively had it "shut down" and wants it to change or stay shut down FOR THAT REASON.
    (Of course that is they're "stated" reason.) Point is, they should not have that right because NO ONE ELSE has that right! (Regardless of ones opinions on porn.) [and the trademark thing is just plain stupid-there's no confusion of products.]
  • #include <snowball_effect.h>
    #include <std_disclaimer.h>

    In consideration to their stock, if this keeps up, eToys could be hit by a class-action lawsuit from shareholders.

    In the U.S. you can sue a company's management if they keep making decisions that run counter to sound business judgment--and in this case, it's pretty clear eToys management is acting out of personal motives rather than from any real judgment.

    Under U.S. law shareholders can lead a class-action lawsuit against management that willfully and stupidly loses their money--and that's what we've got here. Pretty soon it's going to be necessary to decide whether to join that suit, or to keep losing money...

    IMHO, they should drop this while they're still able.
    --
  • I have been to a few sites that basically have similar urls to a major company (plus or minus a few letters) and they have a little message saying that basically "are you looking for blah.com? well go there) and such with a link in bold. Then all you have to do is to have another large link that allows for the people who really wanted to go to etoy or whatever to go there if they want with just one more click. This would have solved the problem without the need for lost revenue. I don't know about you people but after the first few days of no utilities and no food in a cold dark house I would be looking at any solution.
  • This is why I keep pushing for the elimination of .com/org/net TLDs. Everything should go to geographical domains. Then we could make something resonable out of the trademark vs domain name conflicts. If you have the trademark in region X, then you can lay claim to the domain name; otherwise, don't bring any frivolous lawsuits into my courtroom. What's more, this would obey the decentralized spirit that was originally designed into the DNS system. The US would no longer have exclusive control over the damn thing. Put the top level servers under UN control (it's about time that organization did something useful anyway), then every country could handle allocation of domains in whatever way suits them.
  • Now, If someone told you that in 1997, Etoys bought every domain name they could muster with the letter E and the phrase "toy" or "toys", would it surprise you? No, perhaps not - It seems like a reasonably self-preserving business practice. However, If you knew you owned the domain E-toy.com and made efforts to shut down Etoy.com, Would it seem unreasonable for you to gain traffic to your own site by visitors mistyping E-toy instead of Etoy?

    Making gains off of another group's losses (that you created) seems incredibly unreasonable and dishonest to me. Perhaps we ought to encourage some kind of countersuit falling along these lines... Even with no chance to beat the financial backbone of Etoys' legal team, it would at least get the press riled up and put the spotlight on Etoys... :>
  • As someone else has already said (in this post, even) this has nothing to do with US jurisdiction. The courts didn't force the closure of www.etoy.com. eToys called up NSI, complained, and NSI brought down the site. They have every right, since they are the ones who registered www.etoy.com, but it is a horrible, tacky, spineless, etc. thing to do. NSI != USA

    etoy.com *was* registered before etoys.com, but the original basis of the lawsuit is that eToys bought the (since invalidated) TM from a company that registered said TM in 1990. In eToys' twisted reality, this was reason enough to pursue these actions. Thankfully, the courts are beginning to see just how silly this case is... so far.

    God, I hate playing devil's advocate...ick!

    BTW, the judge's reason for invalidation of the TM is just great: adding e to the front of a common word is not grounds for a TM. I hope this sets a good precedent to thwart all the other evil-minded companies out there!

    Eric
  • So basically just pick another domain registering company and get etoy up again. If the NSI wants to be vile about it then just go somewhere else. Exactly where is etoy operating from anyway?
  • eToys apparently still doesn't get it. Internet was never meant to be a shopping mall. Yes, commerce can succeed in this medium, but that does not neccesarily make this a shopping mall.

    Internet is a neighborhood. This means that there's a great variety of resources here. Sure, there's stores, and some of them make a lot of money. There are also gathering places, theatres (some of them pretty bleeding-edge, like etoy), workshops, and homes. This neighborhood has been here, and has grown, long before eToys ever came on the scene. Now, eToys is saying, "We want this neighborhood to become a shopping mall." And they'll tear down the whole damn neighborhood to do it.

    Ultimately what these companies want is not a bazaar, not a whole new world, not a new medium of communication; but a virtual suburb. Where everything is clean (or else), there are no angry people, no controversial opinions or expressions, and everyone is free, so long as what they want to do is make money. A virtual suburb that is safe for sheltered suburban children raised in good Mayburyish homes, where they can learn that Internet is safe, inoffensive, secure, protected. A virtual suburb where you don't find anything that might even vaguely disturb you. Where the music is soothing, the pictures are pretty, and you can make your dreams come true by entering your credit card number and expiration date. Don't worry, that information, along with all your other information, won't be handed off to anyone who might hurt you (just to other people who want to sell to you).

    There's just one problem. Even if they get their way, it's all pure bullshit. Internet is not secure, will never be secure. Real life is full of controversey, different ideas, and shocking truths. If they get shoved off of Internet, they'll just move to another network, albeit perhaps a more exclusive one (think back to the BBS days). Moreover, the information you hand out is not safe. The difference is, today, if it's not safe, you'll find out quickly. Tomorrow, if it's not safe, you may never find out. Not unless you're on one of those BBS'es. Or unless it's already too late.

    It doesn't have to turn out this way. We can win this fight. We're smart enough; together, we're rich enough; and we have enough to lose to keep us motivated in this fight.

    As a note, I noticed today that eToys stock is at a 52-week low. Maybe it's time eToys figured out a new strategy?

  • No-one sues anyone.
    EToys gives Etoy an apology and a large sum of money.
    In return, Etoy puts a prominent link to Etoys on their homepage, away from any "I-led-far-too-sheltered-a-life" material.
    Everybody gets on with their lives.

    After all, nothing compromises artistic integrity like a huge wad of cash...
  • I just would like to wonder why anyone actually bother with toys anyway? If you are involved with computers you most likely are not playing with that new Pikachu action figure instead of writing that new device driver for that video card you boss wants anyway.
  • IF eToys argument is "hey, do what you like, but can you keep the stuff that's age-inappropriate off the public pages", then I don't see the problem. Anyone capable of setting up a web page is more than capable of setting up an .htaccess file, and anyone capable of thought is capable of deciding if something is "age-inappropriate".

    The problem is that what's "age-inappropriate" isn't a simple decision. The US is very prissy about nudity. Europe isn't. Things which are totally accepted in Europe (Such as nude beaches, or nudity on television) are not accepted in the US. Go to a mediterrian resourt beach, and you will see topless women. Walk along the beach, and you'll probably end up in the nude section, and see naked people.

    Look at movies certifications around the world, and you will find very wide variations between difference countries. A single film can be considered acceptable for 7 year olds in France, but not acceptable for 17 year olds in the US.

  • Speaking frankly, and keep in mind I'm not a securities trader or a financial analyst or a lawyer or whatever...for a long time, eToys was worth more than Mattel and Hasbro combined. That's the two largest toy makers in the US. As of today, eToys is worth less than either Mattel or Hasbro, even if only by a little. This makes more sense. eToys's income is far, far less than that of either company, and eToys is less established. If you ask me, this is probably just a correction, and a much-needed one.

    It's true that their stock is almost at a 52-week low. But this doesn't necessarily mean that they're mishandling the business. I would be very surprised if investors started suing them over this.

  • There is neither a legal nor moral obligation to point someone to a similar sight, because they are confused. It is a nice thing to do, and some sights chose to voluntarilly do so. I'm sure, had etoys.com politely made such a request to etoy.com, rather than resort to judicial thuggary, the artists at Etoy would have at least given the request consideration.

    However, now that etoys.com have done what they've done, I suspect there will be an ice age in hell before any such link is created, and that is as it should be. We should continue the boycott, and do everything (legal) in our power to put those pricks out of business for good.
  • "I don't agree with censorship, but I don't have any problem with two web sites trying to find some kind of common ground so that they can talk this over like human beings."

    Talking things over like human beings doesn't include suing for and recieving an injunction against someone's livelihood, shutting them down, going so far as to remove their email access, and then sending a preliminary olive branch after your biggest retail season is over. I don't think etoys should be treated with any respect at this point, nor should they be able to mandate any terms of surrender. If justice were to be served, they would be shut down themselves for a month, just to even the score.



  • Why not just re-register etoy.com with a competing DNS registration service?
  • They have enough control to "hold" the domain name so that none of the other registrars can issue it. From one of the previous Wired articles [wired.com]:

    Network Solutions spokeswoman Sheryl Regan said the domain name registrar routinely shuts down contested domain names when court orders are issued.

    "We put a domain name on hold so no one has access to it," Regan said.


    And NSI is the incumbent registrar, which brings with it many advantages...
  • If I operate a convent bestiality porn site or I operate a site for Barney and his little friends makes no difference. If you give money to someone for a service then you are obgligated by law to give them that service or give a total refund. If a person is refused from being able to get a service that is open to others and the others are not under similar restrictions then you are in fact descriminating against them and that is also against the law and you can file a suit. I would also be suing NSI for their predatory and descriminatory actions.
  • by Frank Sullivan (2391) on Thursday December 30 1999, @08:46AM (#1432094) Homepage
    And when i wrote my protest mail to eToys.com, that's exactly what i told them... i am a parent of five year old twins, our family is well within the top 10% income bracket, and we regularly purchase goods online. And if they want a share of the hundreds of dollars a year i spend on toys, they need to drop their complaints against etoy.

    Which reminds me... i should send them another letter telling them that i won't be satisfied until they have unilaterally and unconditionally dropped everything against etoy.
    ---
    120
    chars is barely sufficient
  • You're right that they should have done a bit of research, first. That was stupid of them.

    However, they =DO= have every right to ask. The First Ammendment grants every man and woman (but not children, sadly) the absolute right to say or ask what they like, without interference. Whether you agree with the First Ammendment or not is irrelevent. It's there, so eToys has absolute right to whatever free speech they choose.

    They even have the right to expect eToy to comply. Expectations are in the mind, and there is no law against thinking what you like.

    What they =DON'T= have the right to do is to make people go along with those expectations. THAT is where their rights end and those of the other person begin. Your rights end where I begin.

    There is NOTHING illegal or immoral for eToys to go over to another company and say "hey, we can be mature about this, how about we work something out here." I'd call that bloody sensible, if you ask me! It's about time someone asked, rather than demanded at gunpoint or lawsuit-point. This =IS= the twentieth-century AD, and we ARE supposed to be more peaceful, civilised and enlightened than, say, Genghis Khan's mongul hordes.

    On the other hand, there's NOTHING civilised about threats or intimidation to make another person think (or pretend to think) the same as yourself, out of sheer terror.

  • by LeviLevi (114307) on Thursday December 30 1999, @08:49AM (#1432101)

    Please don't take this personally, but I believe it is exactly the kind of attitude potrayed in this post that allows the erosion of democracy and freedom to occur around events like this eToys vs. etoy business.

    Of course /. has editorial bias. /. is, in theory, run by humans. Humans have biases. /. puts a lot of effort into and does a very good job at keeping editorial bias to a minimum. I believe that's why it has the level of community participation it does.

    Why is it that we "don't hear all sides of the story" when (American) business or financial interests are threatened? Do you think we've heard "all sides of the story" surrounding the probable intentional bombing of of the Chinese embassy during the Kosovo conflict? Have we heard all sides of the story regarding the brutal police suppression of non-violent activists in Seattle recently? (Yes, I realize that there were some violent protestors as well. But also keep in mind that there are many eyewitness accounts of 'plant' activity. i.e. people purposefully trying to agitate the crowd and handcuffing them with plastic handcuffs when they join in.)

    It seems that when the equity income of pampered knowledge workers is in question, we "haven't heard all sides of the story". When we have undisputed facts regarding an attack on democracy and freedom, it's irrelevant.

    There are a couple of undisputed facts here:

    1. etoy was here first
    2. eToys extremely arrogant legal behavior toward etoy.

    Even assuming that eToy's argument is what you claim it is, do you honestly believe they have the right to that argument? I certainly don't. It would be an extremely slippery slope to allow corporation to police network content around their "domain neighborhoods".

    I also think we should be extremely wary of your assumption that "age-appropriateness" is a good thing. It has been proven time and again in other mediums that conrtols on information for the perceived benefit of the "innocent" are no subsitute for a supportive community. Look at the populatiry of (shudder) Christianity. To beg "the system" for controls on information to protect our progeny is shrugging off parental responsibility to an outside agency. We should be addressing the problems and concerns that are preventing parents from developing supportive communities in their homes (i.e. insane work hours, the engineering of materialistic market-mania in youth (Pokemon, etc.), etc.) rather than abdicating our responsibility to someone or something else and then bitching when it is ineffective.

  • I think a little trip over to lego [lego.com] would do just nicely or maybe toys r us [toysrus.com]. I don't know what to do about the "bright and shiny" part maybe some furniture polish on a oak cofee table might do the trick or perhaps pyrite I hear that works well for shiny and fooled a great deal of people :)
  • Hmmm...I own an avant garde theatre for a couple of years. You move in next door, open a toy store and then ask me to stop producing radical plays because it frightens some of the toystore customers.

    If eToys didn't want to be associated with etoy, they should have thought of that before spending millions marketing their asinine name.

  • I have one nefew and four nieces aged 2 through 10, for which I buy xmas presents every year. Etoys would have been the first place I would have checked, had it not been for their reprehensible behavior. Then there are 5 birthdays spaced throughout the year.

    As it is, they lost some $300 in xmas revinue from me alone. Add to that an additonal $400-$600 in birthday revinue in 2000. Multiply the resulting value by at least another 8-10 years, as in light of their most recent actions will never shop there, ever.

    Now, ask yourself: how many people in the artistic and technical communites either have children of their own, or siblings who do, who fall into the same category? The effect is magnified, inasmuch as geeks are significantly more likely than Joe Average to actually spend money online. It was incredibly stupid, indeed bordering on fiscal negligence if not outright self-sabatage, for etoys.com to alienate one of their most promising customer bases in the way that they have.

    With any luck both their financial report and stock value will reflect this for a long time to come.
  • by FreeUser (11483) on Thursday December 30 1999, @09:04AM (#1432112) Homepage
    Please consider demanding a public apology to Etoys as well. It is important that they be held accountable for what they've done and not just be able to slink anonymously away, only to come back and do something equally reprehensible another day.

    I am making my position to them (politely)clear in another window as I type this.
  • I remember a childhood story about a duck giving a snake a ride across the river in exchange for the snake agreeing not to bite the duck. Once on the other side the snake bites the duck and the duck in his dying breath asks why and the snake replies, because that is that nature of being a snake.

    Now we turn to big corporations and small organizations. Same story.
  • of course, that to shoud be a from.

    Please consider demanding a public apology from Etoys as well.
  • I agree that it's a subjective decision, but being subjective (and therefore varying between people) doesn't really change a person's ability to still make that decision.

    After all, what you call a headache is subjective and therefore at variance with what I call a headache, but we're still capable of accepting each other's definition and understanding what the other person means.

    I don't see why "age-inappropriate" should be any different. Sure, one person can very in their opinions with another, but if we respect that, we can STILL come to an understanding as to what "age-inappropriate" means. It means "that which is not appropriate for that age", and it will have that meaning for the most extreme conservative, the most open liberal, pagans, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.

    Sure, no two people will agree as to what actually -is- inappropriate, but that's not the issue. The request referred to "good faith", and (IMHO) that means "go by YOUR definition. If =you= aren't comfortable with 5 year olds seeing this, then why not put it somewhere where 5 year olds won't have access to it?"

    "Good Faith" almost -can't- mean "Use Our Definition", as that requires obedience & servitude, rather than the "we trust you to follow your beliefs" that "Good Faith" implies.

    As for .htaccess files, HTML pages and web servers - if a person doesn't understand what a web server is, how do they understand the idea of driving to a shop, faxing a resume, or sending a postcard to a friend?

    I agree that a lot of people are, ummm, clueless, but I've taught a lot of people too, and I've found that people have no problems understanding concepts that are familiar to them. Computerese scares people because it -seems- alien. The concept, though, beneath that is all very familiar stuff to these people.

    .htaccess files are simply files which let the system know who can access the file. For non-techies, this translates to: ".htaccess files are like bouncers. They restrict who can get in, often by name, invitation or appearance."

    (For techies, name = hostname or username, invitatation = cookie or certificate, appearance = browser type or capabilities)

    The definition of insanity is to try and do the same thing, time and time again, expecting different results. If you describe things too technically for Joe Bloggs, use ideas that Joe Bloggs -does- know, and show how they relate. It's easier on everyone, if people can learn in a way that works for them, rather than having everyone struggle uphill.

  • by Travoltus (110240) on Thursday December 30 1999, @09:18AM (#1432127) Journal

    According to eToys' [yahoo.com] stock history, they've dropped from almost $80/share to ~$25.50/share.

    Does anyone have a really credible analysis on this? I found some ideas over at the Red Herring [redherring.com]. Toys R Us is down to $14.13, $10 off its yearly high. The entire online toy purchasing industry is suffering from a lack of confidence, resulting (reportedly) from their inability to fill toy orders on time.

    While customers of other toy makers (Toys R Us) and KBKids professed (at a rate exceeding 40%) they wouldn't shop there again, the rate of terminal dissatisfaction with eToys is 12%.

    My prediction is that eToys' stock will rebound. The eToys death watch will be an excruciatingly slow event and will suffer quite an ugly setback as eToys (in my non-investor prediction) gets out of the hospital bed around early Spring, the time by which eToys will most likely have gotten their butts in gear with regards to meeting customer orders. They will either have more efficient fulfillment techniques, or customers will buy earlier, but in either case this major depressant upon their stock value will be lifted away by April.

    So is there cause for despair? Yes and no. Surely we cannot avoid eating a few crow feathers here and there when eToys' stock rebounds. But the way to keep the whole crow from being stuffed down, i.e. the way to keep their stock from rebounding too far, and perhaps even drag it down to sub-$20 levels, is rather clear.
    1) If you know of any online artist groups, inform them about the eToy vs eToys issue. The artist community does not suffer this crap very easily.
    2) If you know of any non-online artist groups of any sort - stores, galleries, you name it - let them know, also.

    There is the more drastic and difficult theory, also:
    3) Gather donations and fund an ad in USA Today, documenting the tragedy of eToys' attack on etoy.com. Express it as an attack on artistic free expression by means fraudulent legal tactics (false patent claims, etc.), under an atmosphere of judicial ignorance favoring the biggest-mouthed, deepest-pocketed lawyers. Call for a boycott on eToys.com.

    You have to find ways to create massive tides of bad press for eToys - this and this alone will create a major dampener on their stock value. This should start right now, while their stock is down, so as to depress the upcoming rebound as eToys prepares a mission plan to prevent their previous customer fulfillment failures from happening again.

    Now I've checked USA Today for their information on the costs of a full page ad [usatoday.com], and the rates are almost $11,000 for a 1/16 page ad, up to $81K for a full pager. It ain't cheap. Of course the bigger the ad the more people are going to notice it, but I think even at 1/16th page it is still going to cause major press, and grab the attention of a lot of people.

    What do y'all think?
  • Something like this was discussed prior to the lawsuit. Etoy wanted Etoys to pay for an advertisement is what it boiled down to. Hard to say if Etoy was trying to be helpful or not.
  • by tpck (66866) on Thursday December 30 1999, @09:20AM (#1432131)
    Ahem.

    We represent the interests of CrashDot.org Inc. & Co. It has come to our attention that your site, slashdot.org, may be willfully infringing upon our trademark(s) and intentionally misleading the public.

    CrashDot.org Inc. & Co. is an established e-commerce firm (as of Dec. 30th, 1999) with market capitilization of over $259.6 billion USD. As the premiere retailer of konkey widgets online, we have an obligation to our shareholders to protect our intelectual property from unlawful individuals such as yourself.

    We request that you take your website, slashdot.org, offline immediately and delete any and all files relating to the site in any manner whatsoever. You will also be responsible for removing each and every link on the Internet that points to slashdot.org or any of its pages. Failure to comply will result in a mega-huge monster of a lawsuit -- don't fuck with us, we've got more money than you do.

    If slashdot.org is not disabled within 12 seconds of this posting, we will contact Network Solutions Inc. and have them pull the plug. Then we will procede with the lawsuit.

    Please contact your legal department if you have any questions. (Don't bother with the PR department, they know nothing. Buncha monkeys think we've been keeping good relations with you folks for months, and have even offered to buy your domain name for a huge sum of cash. Ha, what morons.)

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year,
    The CrashDot.org Inc. & Co. Legal Team.

  • There is NOTHING illegal or immoral for eToys to go over to another company and say "hey, we can be mature about this, how about we work something out here." I'd call that bloody sensible, if you ask me! It's about time someone asked, rather than demanded at gunpoint or lawsuit-point.

    Hello?! McFly?!?! Have you been following the same story I have?

    eToys SUED eToy on the basis of TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT, got their domain (eToy's domain was older then eToys'!) SUSPENDED by NSI, and now you think eToys is being SENSIBLE because you think they're asking for consessions on issues which have NO RELEVANCE to the court case at ALL?!?!

    eToys has no legal or moral right to sue eToy for anything, let alone to be the content police of the net. I think you need a whack from the reality stick personally.

    -- iCEBaLM
  • by jetson123 (13128) on Thursday December 30 1999, @09:35AM (#1432142)
    Internet companies pick names all the time, and most of them try to make sure that there are no objectionable, pre-existing, confusable names.

    Many Internet companies, in fact, buy confusable domains outright. eToys should have tried to acquire the etoy.com domain name before they got started.

    Either eToys didn't do their homework, or they decided early on that they didn't care about the confusability issue. Either way, it's the responsibility of eToys, not etoy.com, no matter what etoy.com content is.

    Besides, the etoy.com content doesn't seem "adult" by European standards. Why should US hangups and prudishness dictate what the rest of the world can see on the Internet?

  • Don't pretend that every side has been heard in full. Even on Slashdot. That's not to say there's editorial bias here - I don't believe there is - but, rather, that there's a limited amount of space and an unlimited number of opinions amongst the different sides.

    No editorial bias on Slashdot? Excuse me? This is one of the most biased ``news'' outlets you'll ever see!

    And that's fine.

    People, even people who write for the news, should have opinions. That's their job. If their job was ``just the facts'' then we might as well all just read press releases instead.

    This notion of ``journalistic neutrality'' was invented by the wire services late last century in order to be able to sell their stories to both Democratic and Republican papers. They found that stories that didn't express opinions were saleable to a wider market, and so if they kept up the charade that both sides of an argument had merit, they made more money.

    Sometimes both sides of an argument don't have merit. Some times one side is just wrong. Analysis of current events is the most important part of journalism, and yet today people treat it like it's a bug rather than a feature.

    Getting the facts right is an important part of journalism, but so is spelling. Explaining what the facts mean is the most important part, and that usually can't be done without expressing an opinion. (Opinions being what is pejoratively refered to as ``bias'' by people who hold opposing opinions.)

  • This new story [wired.com] has some great lines from etoy.

    Apparently they're enjoying the situation and getting ready to launch an online game. There's a lot of really enjoyable things in this article. It brought a smile to my face to see the chaos that they have planned. A new web site, games, a music CD. I'm liking it!

  • by Froomkin (18607) <froomkin @ l a w . m i a m i .edu> on Thursday December 30 1999, @12:37PM (#1432190) Homepage

    I'm sorry, but on what exactly is e-toys case based? I don't see it.

    There are four families of possible causes of action. From what I've read in the papers (I have NOT seen any of the actual court documents) none of them works:

    1. The Lanham Act. But etoys have to overcome insurmountable difficulties here. First, the etoy people were there first.
      1. Trademarks are not retroactive. If etoy was there first, they win under the Lanham Act.
      2. Second, the two groups are in different lines of business. So the likelihood of confusion is tiny.
      3. Third, the etoy people are arguably non-commercial; the Lanham Act only applies to commercial uses of a name.
    2. State and federal anti-dillution law.
      1. I don't know anything about Cal. state anti-dillution law (if any), so I'll pass on that.
      2. Federal anti-dillution law only appplies to commercial users. Same issue as above.
      3. To prevail under federal dilution law, etoy would have to prove that their mark was "famous". While not impossible, it is a stretch.
      4. 15 USC 1125 only protects a famous mark if the dilutive use "begins after the mark has become famous." That is clearly not the case here.
    3. The cybersquatting bill only applies if the alleged squatter was acting in bad faith. That is clearly not the case here.
    4. This is not a case where unfair competition law applies.

    I think the judge was wrong to grant the injunction. Some combination of talk about securities fraud, other bad things, the xmas rush, the home town advantage, judicial error, whatever, produced the injunction. I don't see how it could have survived an appeal. Or am I missing some fact somewhere? Anyone seen the actual court papers?

    To my eye it's no wonder etoys is trying to drop the case.


    A. Michael Froomkin [mailto],
    U. Miami School of Law,POB 248087
    Coral Gables, FL 33124,USA
  • TOYWAR [toywar.com], etoy's new site is up! See it to see why you should see it!