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Toshiba Sues Over DVD Patents
Posted by
timothy
on Tue May 19, 2009 10:28 AM
from the cornering-the-market dept.
from the cornering-the-market dept.
angry tapir writes "Toshiba has filed suit in a US court against Imation and several manufacturers and distributors of recordable DVD media for the alleged infringement of its patents. Imation and the other defendant companies named in the complaint do not have license agreements covering recordable DVD media with Toshiba or the DVD6C Licensing Group (DVD6C), and have engaged in the import and sale of recordable DVD media in the US without permission, according to Toshiba."
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BluRay (Score:5, Funny)
Well it's a good thing we have Bluray to protect us from those evil DVD manufacturers
Oh well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
USB is patented (Score:3, Informative)
Are flash drives an open standard or are they also encumbered by patents?
Both USB and SD are patented, and inventions used in high-density NAND flash memory are probably patented too.
Re:Oh well... (Score:5, Insightful)
4GB Flash drive: http://www.google.com/products?q=4gb+flash+drive&oe=utf-8&rlz=1R1GGGL_en___US315&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=39MSStyRDpThtge29JCSBA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title [google.com]
about $10
Single blank DVD: http://gemm.com/q.cgi?rb=GOOGLEBASE&wild=GML1415945804 [gemm.com]
$0.50
Um?
Parent
Re:Oh well... (Score:4, Insightful)
The other supports single use, on granular read/write/delete only through "sessions" or UDF packet writing, which is a rather limited hack.
Parent
Re:Oh well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is irrelevant to many. I use DVD's primarily for data backups and archiving. In that case the use is going to be a "write once and then store it" situation anyways. The rewriteability is of no use. Don't get me wrong - I keep a 4gb flash drive handy too because they are useful, but the two of them get used and markedly different ways. I've never had a need for more than 1 flash drive because it just use it for moving files around and keeping them handy when I'm on the move. And truthfully, the "Memory stick" iPod application for my iPod touch is quite possibly going to replace that flash drive. I walk into any area with wi-fi, launch up memory stick, and I then can access (password protected naturally) my iPod's internal storage from any computer just by leaving it sitting on the desk. Close out memory stick when I'm done so that it doesn't remain an open share. It's great, and by it being on the iPod it becomes 1 less device to carry around. Now if only Verizon (the only carrier that services the area where my house is) would just get access to some incarnation of the iPhone I could finally stop carrying around a separate phone and ipod . . .
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Which is exactly why I use DVDs for that purpose. Sure they're not archival, but the fact that you can't rewrite them is why the data on them has survived better than any of the other choices I've used. With the exception of CDROMs, and for similar reasons.
Personally, I use a ZFS mirror to store data which requires that sort of rewriting, but for backup backup I use optical discs with svf. I've yet to have any trouble with the lifespan of the media, and my only complaint is that they're a bit small. Hopeful
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
On the subject of price, you can currently get a DVD-R or even DVD-RW that will hold 4 GB for much less than you can buy a 4 GB flash drive. Even if patent licensing pushed costs to double for DVD-R and DVD-RW, they would still be cheaper than flash drives. The article only mentions Iomega and Memorex. We don't know if other major companies are licensing Toshiba's pat
hmph (Score:2, Troll)
There ought to be a law against patent trolling
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:hmph (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
So let's take the current case, for example.
I see no evidence the patent wasn't licensed in good faith, or that the patent-holder was deliberately sitting on the patent to increase potential damages. So not a troll. (Unless you define "troll" as 'used in a way you personally don't approve of', which is as good as meaningless.)
The companies they're suing aren't trying to "innovate"; they're just manufacturing and distributing an already-designed item.
Whatever you may think of this suit, it is a clear count
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
For a time, certain arms manufacturers dominated the market because anything
that looked similar would likely trigger a lawsuit. So while it did take
quite literally centuries for a lot of the R&D in guns to come to fruition,
it also caused stagnation for decades as these patents sorted themselves
out.
Now that's just the collateral damage.
The real question remains unanswered: were they necessary?
17 years is a long time in the current tech market.
Contemplate the state of your Windows box 17 years ago.
Re:hmph (Score:5, Funny)
There ought to be a law against patent trolling
They can't use it. It's patented.
Parent
Re:hmph (Score:5, Insightful)
How exactly is this a patent troll [wikipedia.org]? It seems to me that Toshiba retains the rights to patents legitimately obtained for actual innovation and have long been known about and licensed to others. Toshiba isn't holding the patents for ransom with outrageous licensing terms, submarining them, or keeping them a secret until after a standard was ratified and then springing them. I'd say that for a system that has all sorts of flaws and issues, this is a legitimate case where the system is working as it was intended in a legitimate fashion.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
An argument could be made that from a physical perspective only, recordable DVD media is not dramatically different from recordable CD media.
The player technology, specifically with reference to encryption, interfaces and lasers, obviously would qualify for patent protection as they were novel inventions when they were invented.
Recordable media however, not quite so easy.
On another note, my personal belief is that when manufacturers create shell organizations to jointly patent their technology, it creates a
Re:hmph (Score:5, Interesting)
While licensing consortia look at first glance to be Evil(tm), they actually do serve an important function. Many technologies are covered by several, perhaps dozens, of patents. Trying to negotiate individually with each company for licensing terms would be a legal and logistical nightmare - especially considering that if you miss one, you're screwed. Negotiating with a licensing consortium means that you only have to go through the licensing steps once, and you're covered for the duration of your license against all of the various patents covering the technology.
Yes, you still have to be careful inasmuch as some company may have decided not to get on board the consortium train, but the chances of this happening are reduced.
The true evil arises when licensing consortia impose "terms of use" on their licenses, such as by leveraging patents to enforce DRM restrictions on equipment manufacturers (DVD-CSS, AACS, HDMI, CableCARD, etc.).
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
An argument could be made that from a physical perspective only, recordable DVD media is not dramatically different from recordable CD media.
Were that the case, DVDs would not exist. The media DVDs are recorded on was fully half the innovation, and it was a huge leap forward in optical recording technology. DVD-R can't get away with the "burn spot, not a burn spot, burn spot, not a burn spot" of CD-Rs. It is significantly more complicated, and combined with DVD writers and players, represents an innovative leap.
I don't know if you know this, but innovative leaps are considered quite novel, and usually get a patent. The DVD patents have been
They're just mad about HD-DVD (Score:3, Funny)
Toshiba's still getting over HD-DVD. They're making upscaling DVD players to compete with Blu-Ray. They lost a lot of face, and they're losing even more money. All the huge "we do everything" Japanese conglomerates (Toshiba, Hitachi, Sanyo) are in pain due to the stagnant economy. Perhaps these lawsuits can help restore them to profitability. I hope so because Toshiba is a darn fine company that makes out with your mom.
Fairness towards all licensees (Score:5, Insightful)
In school, I used to get told that if I wanted to eat candy in class that I would have to provide enough for everyone. Toshiba brought enough for everyone, but some companies are trying to get more than their fair share by not paying for a license. Toshiba is completely in the right to demand payment for the licenses.
On the other hand, this is why killing HD-DVD was such an important thing. Putting two major patent holders (Toshiba and Microsoft) in charge of the direction of the de facto media format would have been disastrous.
Re: (Score:2)
And Sony always plays so nice and openly?
Antitrust against Sony (Score:4, Informative)
Sony may not always play nice, but at least they haven't been charged with monopolistic business practices (that I'm aware of, anyway).
The USA investigated Sony for antitrust violations in 2008 [mashable.com], as did China in 2007 [jdsupra.com].
Parent
Re:Fairness towards all licensees (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other other hand, Memorex and Imation-branded DVDs have been around for ages, are reasonably popular, and Toshiba chose to wait it out. IANAL, but I remember reading something about asking for retroactive damages when you know full well that infringement is happening, and how that's a bad idea.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, he was sort of right...
Though there's no Statuate of Limitations on patent infringement, but most states limit the scope of infringement to 6 years, regardless of the length of infringement, and in certain circumstances, damages awarded have been adjusted by the judge when the first party was clearly fully aware of the infringement.
Basically, We ALL know Memorex maxes blank DVDs... Toshiba should have easily kown this. No that memorex made a few billion selling disks, Toshiba want's it;s cut, and lik
Re:Fairness towards all licensees (Score:4, Informative)
Instead we've got nine major patent holders - Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, and Samsung - in charge of Blu-ray. Is that really an improvement ?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, that's why there's patent corsortiums. There's the DVD6C, which handles all the patents related t
Figures (Score:2, Interesting)
Memorex make some of the better DVDRs I've used in the UK. I presume they sell the same ones in the USA.
Toshiba, OTOH, sell expensive ones that don't seem to last quite so long.
I presume therefore that it is cheaper to file a lawsuit in the US these days than it is to invest in R&D.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, no... Toshiba already invested in the R&D and Memorex has been ripping them off
Memorex needs to pay (hopefully reasonable) licensing costs like all the other DVD-R manufacturers
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Memorex makes fuck-all. They sell CMC Magnetics and Ritek media. The Office Depot brand is just as good.
There is a relatively small number of manufacturers of DVDR media. Memorex, Imation, Maxell, etc. are just stamping their names on them.
There a nice chart at the bottom of this page [digitalfaq.com]
.
Moser Baer - India (Score:2)
One of the eight companies named in the lawasuit, aside from Imation. Anyone know the others?
Re:Moser Baer - India (Score:4, Informative)
Found the others: CMC Magnetics Crop., Ritek Corp., Glyphics Media, Hotan Corp, Khypermedia Corp and Advanced Media Inc in the United States.
Parent
Re:Moser Baer - India (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
I wonder (Score:3, Interesting)
When are we going to get "open" disc formats, like an "open" HD optical disc? It would seem to me that something of that nature would help drive down the cost of this type of media.
Or am I being stupid again?
Re:I wonder (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:I wonder (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re-invent a new format just to drive down the price of a 0.25$ disc with nearly 8GB of storage capacity?
I can't help but ask: Why?!
Re: (Score:2)
The simple solution is to wait for the Hologram based disk formats, that store Terabytes on a CD Sized disc. By the time it is actually released, the patents will have no doubt expired, since it is always 5 years in away...
Which patents? (Score:4, Informative)
Which patents is it alleged that they are infringing? All of them? Some of them? Without knowing which patents they're talking about, we don't know what the fuck we're talking about. I see a lot of comments saying that Memorex &c should pay up... for what?
Re:Which patents? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Which patents? (Score:4, Interesting)
In that case, I suppose the obvious retort will be that the patents were not available "on a non-exclusive basis to interested third-party licensees pursuant to separate negotiations on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms [usdoj.gov]"
Or maybe they just pay up :)
Parent
As much as I hate patents... (Score:3, Interesting)
I hate CMC (memorex) even more. Their products are terrible wastes of plastic that would probably be slightly more useful as coasters (which they usually end up being anyways).
Their dual layer DVDs are a joke and your lucky if you get one dvd-dl out of a pack of 20 that works and lasts for more than a month or two.
Even their single layer DVDs are terrible. They only last a month or two.
And the worst part is CMC has a near monopoly on DVDs. I went to compUSA and they didn't have a single non-CMC brand. If you don't know who makes it...its probably CMC. HP, Imation, Memorex, Generic Brands, and now even single layer once holy Verbatims.
If CMC is sued out of existence for not paying Toshiba then they had whats coming to them. They certainly make terrible products that are a sheer joke. Who in their right mind would honestly trust their data on a CMC disc?
Maybe with CMC out of the picture we can actually find Taiyo Yudens in stores. (because lets face whenever you need more DVDs you need them right away and don't feel like waiting for shipping)
Link is fine, text: (Score:5, Informative)
Toshiba filed suit Thursday in a U.S. court against Imation and several manufacturers and distributors of recordable DVD media for the alleged infringement of its patents.
Toshiba licenses patents essential for meeting DVD format specifications, the company said on Thursday.
Imation and the other defendant companies named in the complaint do not have license agreements covering recordable DVD media with Toshiba or the DVD6C Licensing Group (DVD6C), and have engaged in the import and sale of recordable DVD media in the U.S. without permission, Toshiba said.
DVD6C was set up by nine developers of DVD technology and formats, to license jointly their DVD patents.
Eight companies, including companies in Taiwan and India, have been named as defendants in the suit before the United States District Court for the Western District of Wisconsin.
Toshiba's complaint seeks damages for past infringement, and requests that the court prohibit the sale, manufacture and import into the U.S. of recordable DVD media by the defendant companies.
The infringing recordable DVD media is sold in the U.S. under the Imation and Memorex brand names, Toshiba said.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Only if you're hard of hearing.
Unless I'm mistaken, and the sound "patent" is actually spelled "copyright"
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I made a clean install of Ubuntu 9.04 recently from a USB drive, and it was fantastic. Took maybe 7 minutes total, compared to about 30 from CD.
If you already have Ubuntu, you can find this utility in System > Administration > USB Startup Disk Creator
SanDisk owns patents on USB flash drives (Score:3, Informative)
If USB flash drives aren't patent encumbered, can we please have our Linux installers readymade for them?
USB is patented, as is high-density NAND flash. And SanDisk took other USB flash drive makers to court in 2007 [gizmodo.com].