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Mexican Government To Document Cell Phone Use
Posted by
Soulskill
on Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:36 PM
from the i'm-sure-criminals-will-oblige dept.
from the i'm-sure-criminals-will-oblige dept.
Alyssey writes "The Mexican government wants to have a database to track every cellphone number in the country (in Spanish, Google translation) and whom it belongs to. They want to tie in the CURP (Unique Registration Population Code in Spanish, like the Social Security Number in the US) with cellphone numbers. If Mexicans don't send in their number and CURP via SMS before April 10, 2010, their cellphone number will be blocked. The new law was published back in February and is going into effect now."
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Attention citizen (Score:2, Insightful)
Respond via SMS?
Sounds Phishy
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I think all the telcos here (Australia) lock the phone if you buy it through them. They will unlock it for a fee, and I think they're required to unlock it free of charge once your contract expires. This only applies if your new handset is part of the contract. Most let you buy the phone outright and that should come unlocked.
Even so, if you buy a handset outright from a third party it'll come unlocked, and I've never heard of any of the telcos refusing a phone on their network which you didn't buy from the
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Funny)
I don't have any information on prepaid phone providers in Mexico; if they're as prevalent as they are here in the States, how will this affect those users? Can you just register the phone as belonging to Inigo Montoya and be done with it?
Worst case, you need a fake id. Surely those are impossible to get in Mexico.
Parent
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, they'll be fingerprinting [telegraph.co.uk] people.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Use the phones of illegal immigrants crossing to America under the pretext of America tracking them.
2) Use the kidnapped persons phone.
3) Mug foreigners, and use their phone.
4) Make other people buy the phones.
5) Start own phone shop.
I don't understand why you would use a device that can track your position anyway to communicate a kidnapping/etc.... and those are just a few suggestions off the top of my head to circumvent the law. I would suggest that the police force in Mexico is undermanned and that is the real problem, not the cellphone usage.
Parent
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:4, Insightful)
Undermanned?
I'm a photojournalist who works in the borderlands quite frequently.
Law enforcement in Mexico is an entrepreneurial exercise. They could have an order of magnitude more cops than they do, and it wouldn't make any difference in the world.
The present prohibition is making a class of narcolords who make Al Capone look like a big pussy.
These narcos have more money, more power and more influence than basically any other crime syndicate presently in existence. And it's moving north. Home invasions, kidnappings and drug rips are becoming the norm in suburbia anywhere within a few hundred miles of the border.
Legalizing marijuana (and possibly cocaine) would solve 96% of the problem overnight. Not to mention creating new revenue streams for the government, and maybe allowing the US to once again step behind Russia in the running to imprison the largest percentage of the population.
To the crowd: Face it. It's illegal. But your kids smoke it, your co-workers smoke it and you/your spouse smokes it. Its illegal status is not a deterrent. Wouldn't you rather know where it's coming from and that people aren't dying over it?
Legalize marijuana.
Parent
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Insightful)
I know more people that don't smoke it, then smoke it. That's false. I know a lot of different people too from different walks of life. I don't think they are hiding it either, since I am quite vocal about my positions on a great many things. I have always argued for legalization. So to say everyone is doing it, is quite a stretch for me.
I always demanded it. I knew *exactly* where mine was coming from. As in, I could touch the plants, when I went to go pick some up. I find your comment hilarious in a way too. It reminds me of blood diamonds. It would be pretty difficult to put together a certification program for people to *know* their weed comes from honest law-abiding Americans, and not the evil Mexican "narcolords".
Of course not. It was never designed to be a deterrent. That's like saying speed limits were truly designed to keep people safe.
It was truly designed as a way to control people and seize assets. Just like federal income taxes, your Social Security number, and the IRS were designed as a methodology to control people, control information, and to be used as leverage by the state. The money is incidental. It's use as an information gathering tool and a way to destroy people was deliberate.
You use Al Capone as an example which is downright fucking *hilarious* since he was ultimately taken down by the IRS.
No offense, but you annoy the shit out of me. Or more specifically, your "it's not a deterrent" and the "it would be cleaner and less risky for me to consume it" speech just rubs me the wrong way. You will never be effective in communicating the "why" when you argue for legalization when you talk about deterrents, actual usage rates, "we all use it man", etc. The people that don't smoke it, don't care. Their choice to alter their state is alcohol or prescription drugs. Your effectively arguing for something they don't understand, don't choose personally, and have no emotional or intellectual investment in protecting *for you*.
When people are opposed to something, or even indifferent, stating they are *not winning* is NEVER a productive path to get them to change their mind. That's just psychology. They have made themselves part of a group, and to say their group is losing (and them as well) can just make them stubborn, emotional, and irrational. Then they have to win to become right. Sounds insane, but then most of our behavior as a whole really is.
You need to explain to them how Pot being illegal actually affects them *very* negatively, even though they never smoked it or even hate it. I know people that outright hate it, hate the idea of getting high, and would otherwise wholeheartedly support sending your pot-smoking-hippie-ass to jail.
When I explain to them how the government actually uses it to populate prisons, seize property, control soceity, and in general have an excuse to perform actions against citizens that would otherwise be impossible in a truly free society, they become more open to the idea that it needs to be free. That, even though they hate it, other Americans should have the rights to be left in peace and make their own choices.
Truly man, change your tactics in how you go about pushing your views of legalization for pot. I agree with what you want to do, but think about it from a purely "debate team" point of view on how you can more effectively win the argument and win over your audience. Just some positive criticism (really, its intended to be positive) on how you argue for legalization.
Parent
Re:Flamebait (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, you can't read then. That's not flamebait either. You. Can't. Read.
What condescending insults? There was none. I identified with him. I said I agreed with him. There was no insult of any kind whatsoever. The closest I came to anything remotely like that, was expressing my dissatisfaction with his points to make marijuana legal. That's it. As for condescending, well that is your interpretation. I was merely trying to express to him there can be more effective means of not only communicating his points, but to win over people in this argument. To say that I was acting superior or patronizing is a stretch IMO. You are entitled to your opinion though, but to say I insulted him is just incorrect.
Here's what he said that had to do with marijuana (the rest was about himself and Mexico):
So now, where I am making the same points he did? Keep in mind that I made a specific commentary on the 2nd statement.
He made a point about the reduction of crime and a new revenue stream for the government. I made no such points at all. If anything, I disagreed with the new revenue stream as the government gains a far more valuable level of control AND revenue with the current illegal status of marijuana.
We both pointed out the prison population, but we were using it in different ways. He was saying that we could reduce the prison population while I was pointing out that it was illegal for the very fact it could create a profitable prison population in the first place. He implies we can address a problem, while I point out that the problem was desired and designed. Not the same point.
He used Al Capone as a comparison against the current Mexican drug lords, while I mentioned it specifically in regards to the IRS, something he never mentioned did he?
So I fail to see how I was redundant.
I honestly believe that his argument about how 1) Everyone does it and 2) The laws are not stopping anybody are extremely counter productive towards achieving the goal of legalization. You can think I insulted him, or that I was patronizingly superior, but I did NOT make the same arguments for legalization that he did.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You're right... You shouldn't be moderated Flamebait. Too bad you can't moderate someone "-1 Asshole", though. No offense, but you annoy the shit out of me (Hmm, where have I heard that before?).
You're also right that you didn't make the same points as the GP... He made rational point, your random paranoid conspiracy ramblings aside, your post added absolutely nothing to the discussion except insults.
Some of the GP's statements may have been overbroad, but none of them were actually wrong. Marijuana's legal
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Informative)
Do you think those underground mercenary corps will just disband and they'll all get themselves decent legit jobs?
Nope, but their income will be sharply reduced. It happened to the mafia in the USA when prohibition ended.
-jcr
Parent
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is why in the Netherlands, Prostitution is legal while Pimping isn't, Marijuana is CONDONED and not 100% legalized, and the focus for users of cocaine, E, Amphetamines and even heavier stuff like heroin is to Inform & Help them rather than to lock 'm up and throw away the key.
Do we have problems? Sure we do. Do we have a violent crime rate as in the US and certain other countries? No we don't. As a matter of fact, it's quite boring here. And we like it that way. Well. Some of us do at any rate.
Lastly I have to point out that the workings of Life, The Universe and Everything Else *cannot* be deduced by watching Mob movies.
Parent
Amen, Brother! (something on topic, too) (Score:3, Interesting)
Even if you're an anonymoys coward, I have to agree with you. On both counts.
If we legalize Mary Jane and Nose Candy now, the "hip, with it" people will move to something else that is way too dangerous to be legal (crystal meth, anyone?). That will create a lucrative market for it.
The real solution would be to have a new kind of culture, that doesn't glorify delinquency and criminality. That'll be the day...
By keeping Marijuana illegal we make teens think they're living on the edge when they toke a joint. T
So when alcohol was legalized.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Off topic with an great seg to on topic!! (Score:5, Insightful)
The collateral damage of crime surrounding narcotics is so much worse than the actual damage that the narcotics cause. Even your "way too dangerous" drug, the most dangerous thing about it is the production of it. I agree meth ravages a person and isn't something someone should be taking, but instead of throwing them in a pound-them-in-the-ass federal prison, we should be giving them counseling.
Look at tobacco and alcohol, two things that are legal, and please realize that everything you wrote is completely nonsensical. Your entire argument reads like a pro-prohibitionists argument during the 1920's. Absolutely nothing is solved by making narcotics illegal and thousands of problems are created.
By keeping Marijuana illegal we make teens think they're living on the edge when they toke a joint.
This sentence is the most ignorant of all. It sums up your complete incomprehension of the motivation of teenagers with your lack of the ability to see the major problems that prohibition causes. Just like this bill will do nothing to deter criminals in Mexico and only put more innocent people in harms way as the incentive to mug someone for their cellphone has just increased tenfold.
Parent
Get some EXPERIENCE, and then maybe we'll talk ... (Score:3, Insightful)
OK. We get it. You call Marijuana "Mary Jane". and Cocaine "Nose Candy". You use the word "hip". You speculate what "hip" people would do in ways that make it painfully evident that you have exactly zero insight into what it is like to be one of those people. You are not hip, and never will be. You
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Interesting)
You're applying what you know about US crime to Mexico. Our war on drugs is figurative. Their war on drugs has become quite literal. Some have suggested that the Mexican government may soon be co-opted or overthrown by the drug cartels. Politicians and law enforcement alike are legitimately scared for their lives and the protection of their families. Kidnapping isn't like robing a bank in that social environment. It's a form of blackmail. It's not a get-rich-quick scheme by any stretch of the imagination.
Parent
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Insightful)
Their war on drugs is powered by our war on drugs. In fact, it is our war on drugs, only exported across the border. During prohibition of alcohol we had an elevated level of violence in this country -- the current system is much more efficient, at least if you live in the USA. If you live in Mexico... not so much.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
2) Only small fry with zero political influence will be caught.
3) See #2
4) See #2
Remove prohibition and even the most powerfull and influential drug lords will disappear into the dustbin of history.
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Informative)
When I bought a prepaid sim card in Switzerland last year, they wouldn't give it to me unless they got my passport information etc.
In Australia, you need to call to activate your prepaid sim card. When you do, they ask for your name and address under the pretext that they need it for emergency services.
I can't be bothered making up any in Soviet Russia jokes, but I'm sure someone else will :)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
So what happens if you buy and activate a prepaid cellphone in the US or Guatemala, then use it in Mexico??
Yeah, this will stop crime, all right.
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:brought to you by some long distance lobyist? (Score:2)
So US citizens living or working in mexico can no longer get a cell phone in Mexico?
In AZ prepaid long distance cards covering "international" calls to Mexico are cheap and insanely popular. Mexico will not prevent US phones from roaming, so I am guessing pre-paid "International" cell phones will be here too.
Mexican here (Score:5, Informative)
In my experience, there's several people who due to poverty or lack of concern are not registered with the relatively new CURP system. Thus I wonder, how will it affect those people? Will they shell out 20 pesos to pay some kid with internet access to get it for them, or will they stop using cell phones?
I believe (and hope) this law will fail in epic proportions. Mainly due to Telcel, pretty much the only cellphone provider, losing too many costumers over it. Also, there seems to be much opposition: there are very few comments supporting the law on the article linked.
Mexico does need a way to get rid of our infamy before the eyes of the world, a police state will only make us even worse. We don't need this kind of stupidity coming from our government, however corrupt it may be.
Parent
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Funny)
(My sig has been waiting YEARS for me to make a post like this!)
Parent
Re:Prepaid phones. (Score:5, Informative)
If I recall correctly you do not need any type of identification to get a prepaid telephone in Mexico. It is just a matter of going to your Telcel shop at the corner of the street (there are more of those than there are cantinas) and buy a chip with "100 pesos tiempo aire".
Funny that they provide a link to the Milenio paper... I believe that "El Universal" ( which has the article here [eluniversal.com.mx]) is better.
Now, for those very paranoid slashdotters, note that one of the reasons they are doing this is because given the lack of such identification records, mobile phones are heavily used in blackmailing.
That happened to my brother once, he was studying in Mexico City and he got a call which went like this:
After the phone rang and he answered a shouting voice said:
"Hey we got your brother, and we will kill him unless you comply with our desires"
After that, a voice in the background of the telephone shouted as if he was the "captured" brother "please please, help me, please don't leave me"
In the "heat" of the moment, my brother shout my name "Pedro, are you ok?" [not my real name of course].
Of course with that information the criminals continued with their tale, telling him that yes they had "Pedro" and they were going to hurt him blah blah...
My brother just hung up the telephone and called my mother (who lives in another state)... Fortunately for us, I have been living *outside* Mexico for the last 5 years... therefore I could not have been trapped in Mexico City...
My brother wrote me an email telling me to ask me to mail back just to be shure I was OK, I called him that afternoon from the UK where I was living then.
There are countless of similar stories with such kind of social engineering. Of course not all the people are as "wise" as us, or they get blackmailed in the middle of some kind of crisis (money, family, etc) where the scenario of a kidnapped relative is very possible.
The issue until now (that the database is started) is that even if you had a caller-id and a number, you could not do anything with it because it would not be registered, or it will be faked. The current registry will require both an valid id (Mexican voting credential which is the national id) and a fingerprint.
Parent
Border runs (Score:4, Insightful)
I assume this doesn't apply to PAYG phones bought in the US? What a way to not affect criminals in the least.
Corruption (Score:2, Insightful)
With an already corrupt government and police force this benefits the people how..?
Re:Corruption (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In a country as corrupt as Mexico you can be sure that the criminals will have access to this data too.
In Colombia the cartel had a dedicated data centre connected the national Telco's data centre, and they were able to finger informants through call records.
And by finger I mean kill.
Lots of transient workers (Score:5, Informative)
here where I live. I just pay them a hundred pesos to buy a chip for me. He'll be leaving town in a few months, and I got my phone. Repeat as needed. With a legitimate name and my phone is stolen, lots of luck defending yourself against false accusations here. Luckily the old system of "justice" is still in place. Una mordidita para las polis y ya.
You mean a log file or like a phone bill ? (Score:3, Funny)
Stupid Laws, more stupid implementations. (Score:5, Informative)
I live in Mexico and I can tell you that one of the intentions of the law is to reduce the crimes that use cellphones to coordinate and execute (like kidnappings and drug deals).
The problem with this is the implementation, the law clearly specifies that your cellphone provider must take an ID and your fingerprint, but the most popular provider Telcel lets you register sending a SMS with your name and birth date. Essentially rendering the registration useless.
Re:Stupid Laws, more stupid implementations. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Sounds like a great way to steal identities (Score:2, Interesting)
This will solve which problem again? (Score:3, Insightful)
I cant understand what this will solve for the Mexican Government. Does this have anything to do with all the violent crime linked to the Mexican drug trade? Do they really think sending a CURP via SMS is a secure and infallible method? Good luck to them.
Oh and here is a possible theory: The USA could use this system to track illegals who might have bought their cell phones into the US. Doesent sound all that plausable but hey its a theory.
Re:This will solve which problem again? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This will solve which problem again? (Score:4, Informative)
The problem is extorsion.
This is a growing problem in Mexico.
You get either a
1. SMS that says that you won a prize. Most of the time you need to send another sms to another cell number where they tell you that you need to pay a deposit to get your prize. Or,
2.- A call in which a person tells you that have kidnapped a relative of yours. They don't demand a lot of money. They just want to get some money because 99% of the time they haven't kidnapped anybody. They rely on getting you scared enough so you deposit some money before you can check if it was true.
Most people know it's a scam, but still a lot of people fall for it.
The thing is, most of the scammers come from inside prisons so this is an attempt to make it more difficult to get a stolen cellphone which is what the criminals usually use.
- A mexican that has gotten those calls.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course getting an stolen phone or cloning a numbers is still as easy as ever. This accomplishes nothing except perhaps tracking of innocent citizens.
Lessons to be Learned (Score:5, Interesting)
At the end of the day with technology constantly advancing and the "here there be monsters" parts of the map becoming non-existent there is only one way to ensure our future freedoms. My daughter will know how to execute SQL injections by the time she is 10! We live in an era where your average teenager is more capable of destroying/manipulating government plans/records/whathaveyou than any pitchfork and torch wielding mob has had since the days of the caveman!
Disclaimer: Parents, be careful with this plan, you wouldn't want to have your records swapped with (notorious threat of the day) for grounding your kid.
All of the National Mexican Databases (we have 11) (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep this is another stupid law passed under the guise of trying to fix a national security problem. The truth is it is just another way for the government to get another Nationwide Database of us Mexicans. Let us count how many we have.
1) We have the CURP. (national ID number)
2) We have the IFE. (national voting card)
3) We have the RFC. (national Tax Number, complete with electronic digital certificate plus you need to fingerprint your 10 digita for that one)
4) We have Cartilla de Vacunacion (national medical card, needed for most hospitals and free health services)
5) We have drivers license (again taging all the above)
5) We have CLABE (national bank account database... all your Financial info are belong to us linked to the Mexican Tax Sistem)
6) We have the Afore (national retirement account number)
7) Some states have a secondary voting card (since the national one could be untrustworthy)
8) We have birth certificate records with the CRIP (a longer version of the CURP)
9) National Military Card (for all males 18 and older which technically makes all of Male Mexicans National Reserve and you need to have it for the next database one, the passport)
10) Passports, (not required by law but do require #9 to get one and will also be required if you ever need to leave this place.)
woohoo.. so much for freedom of speech.
Most of them have all your personal info in them, plus fingerprints, plus anything and everything to tag you. There was the defunct RENAVE which was the national car ID. That was pass under the guise of people commit felony's on stolen cars.
Now a National Celular Id, what is next a National Phone Id, since people also commit crimes on the phone. Or maybe a National Public Phone id, since criminals could also use Public Phones. Or a National Internet Users Id while you are at it. Or a National Credit Card registry since credit cards are used in scams. No wait we have that one also (chalk it as number 11)
Maybe a national knife owners id, so in the supermarket when you buy a knife it will be registered in your name.
Now seriously, the main problem in this is that one more database to cross reference you by will not solve the crime problem. I used to work for a telemarketing firm, and they had bought half of the Databases mentioned above, so the information contained in those database is readily available thanks to corrupt officials. Some of them are even online like the CURP. (one XSS away from full access).
If you are Mexican, don't worry about all the databases, organized crime already have them all. That is how they target you. I know of cases where the criminals even know how much money you have in your bank account and suggest it to you if you try to say you don't have any money.
Now the implementation, you can send a SMS with what ever info you want. Want to become your neighbor, look his CURP up online here:
http://www.emexico.gob.mx/wb2/eMex/eMex_Consulta_tu_CURP
(just need his name and his birthday).
Seriously the problem is the Corrupt Mexican Government, why don't they pass laws to fix that, and maybe we wouldn't need just another national public database.
Here in Mexico they passed a law to instantly tax your deposits in the bank, if you get a cash deposit of 25000 pesos or more (like 2000 dls) instead of going after the known tax evaders. So honest folk pay taxes for the criminals which never do, and the criminals either don't care, have lawyers, or use bribes. Do you think criminals have money in the bank, come on.
This database will get abused like all the others and it is not in the public's interest. Criminals will now have access to all you family's cellular phone numbers so they know who to ask ransoms to.
MEXICAN GOVERNMENT, solve the problem don't make another stupid law that will not solve the problem.
In Soviet Mexico are belong to us, all your information.
CURP is not like SSN (Score:4, Informative)
...CURP (Unique Registration Population Code in Spanish, like the Social Security Number in the US) ...
Not by a long shot. CURP consists of four sections:
1. Four letter acronym - last name, mother's maiden name, first name and second name (or second letter from first name).
2. Six digits indicating your birth date.
3. Three letters indicating your state of birth.
4. Three letters and three digits, seemingly random but actually a predictable tag, to differentiate you from others sharing the first three sections, all very similar.
Many commercial apps in Mexico have the "CURP function" installed, you just type in the first three criteria, and out comes the full CURP. I believe even some legit Mexican websites provide this function. It's not intended to be secret and it's not tied in with your personal finances in any way.
Little or nothing to see here, folks, move along.
Re: (Score:2)
They don't have to. You have a internet connection.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Stories like this always make me very, very glad that I've never bothered to buy a cell phone. I mean sure, I know my government will track me somehow anyway, but at least I have the satisfaction of making the bastards work for their data.
By posting as an AC you really showed them. They'll be stumped for months on that one!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Since pre-paid anonymous cell phones are almost always used for no good and legal purpose this sounds like a great idea for that kind of phone.
That's a very old and tired lie that "those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear"
http://www.biometricidentitycards.info/articles/NoHideNoFear.htm [biometrici...cards.info]
What about whistleblowers, victims of abuse, or political dissidents? What happens when the government becomes a totalitarian regime?
Another powerful take on this:
http://tithonus.livejournal.com/339295.html [livejournal.com]