Slashdot Log In
UK Judge Grants Extradition Review To Cracker Gary McKinnon
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:11 AM
from the speedy-legal-system dept.
from the speedy-legal-system dept.
JobsEnding writes with this quote from IBTimes:
"A British court ruled on Friday that a man who hacked into US military computers will be given permission for a judicial review against his extradition to the United States. Hacker Gary McKinnon, 42, who had been diagnosed recently with Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism, has admitted hacking into the military computers. His lawyers had said McKinnon was at risk of suicide if he were extradited."
We discussed the granting of McKinnon's extradition in 2006 when it was first granted, as well as a profile of the man more recently.
Related Stories
[+]
Politics: UK Gives Go-Ahead to Gary McKinnon Extradition 309 comments
robzster1977 writes "Judges in the UK have given the go-ahead to the extradition of UK hacker Gary McKinnon. McKinnon is accused of breaking into US Navy, Army and Department of Defense computers in 2001 and 2002." From the article: "On 4 July the secretary of state signed an order for Mr McKinnon's extradition to the United States for charges connected with computer hacking. Mr McKinnon had exercised his right to submit representations against return but the secretary of state did not consider the issues raised availed Mr McKinnon."
[+]
IT: BBC Profiles Extradited Cracker Gary McKinnon 315 comments
An anonymous reader writes "The BBC has published a very good profile of Gary McKinnon. It discusses his motives and methods as well as raising the question as to whether he is a malicious 'hacker' or whether he was simply obsessed with finding info about UFOs and should be praised for finding security faults in what should be extremely secure systems. This should provided stimulus for some interesting discussion on Slashdot especially between us Brits and our American friends following the confirmation of his extradition to the USA."
[+]
News: British Hacker Loses Review of Asperger's Defense 278 comments
Barence writes "Gary McKinnon has lost the judicial review of his case, dealing a potentially fatal blow to his hopes of avoiding extradition to the US. Lord Justice Stanley Burnton and Mr. Justice Wilkie dismissed the review at the Royal Courts of Justice. The review had been assembled to determine whether the diagnosis of McKinnon's Asperger's Syndrome had any bearing on the Home Office's original decision to extradite him to the US. Asperger's sufferers often exhibit obsessive behavior and social naivety, which McKinnon's lawyers have long offered as mitigation. His legal team now has 28 days to appeal the verdict, and his lawyer, Karen Todners, has indicated they may consider taking his case before the US Supreme Court. Last year we discussed a full profile of the hacker published by the BBC." Sophos's survey of 550 IT professionals found that 71% believe McKinnon should not be extradited.
[+]
US Wants UK Hacker To Pay To Fix Holes He Exposed 403 comments
bossanovalithium writes "Gary McKinnon, whose tribulations we have followed for several years now, is the UK hacker trying to escape extradition to the US. It appears he is expected to foot the bill for the US Government patching holes his breaching uncovered — to the tune of $700,000. It's not really the norm for someone to pay for exploits to be patched — damages fixed, yes, but this is a very different thing." The article paraphrases Eugene Spafford as saying that the victim of a cybercrime should not take the blame. "If someone broke a door to rob a store, he said, it was usual to charge them the cost of the door." Isn't the McKinnon case more like charging him to buy the lock that had been missing when he walked in?
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
At Risk of Suicide (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Case in point, Mike Connell.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Another issue is - where was the crime committed?
Isn't that the case of the legal authorities where the crime was committed?
where was the crime committed (Score:4, Insightful)
"where was the crime committed"
That is a very interesting question, as it opens up one hell of a can of worms when applied to any work done virtually. If someone is in one country and commits a crime in another country, then where should they be tried and which laws applied?.
If its decided that the country the crime is committed in, is the place they should be tried, then that means national boarders are meaningless from a legal perspective, as the virtual world then extends people from one country into other country. So what next, does that mean then that people can be tried for saying things considered illegal in another country, like for example, criticizing a foreign government online?
If however a person committing a crime should be tried in their own country, using their own laws, then it prevents the need to open such a big can of worms. As crimes committed are then still within national boarders. It then means each country needs new laws that protect other countries from virtual harm. That seems a much more sane idea, as it protects against the most extreme regimes in some countries, dictating laws to all other countries, by extending their laws virtually into each country.
The problem here is the law has not caught up fast enough with the way technology has changed and so a lack of law prevents the person being tried in their own country, as that country has no law that has been broken. If it did have such a law, then damages would simply pass on to parties in another country, who the crime was against, but most importantly the crime and punishment stays within national boarders, which is very important, given how extreme some countries and their regimes are.
Parent
Cracker Gary McKinnon (Score:5, Funny)
"UK Judge Grants Extradition Review To Caucasian Gary McKinnon" would be a less offensive headline.
Re:Cracker Gary McKinnon (Score:4, Funny)
And you'd never see a headline like "UK Judge Grants Extradition Review to Nigger Gary McKinnon".
There's no call to use racial bigotry here.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well they would've said "Hacker Gary McKinnon", but he's white 24/7 and it was technically more accurate. so.. they kind of had their hands tied.
Re: (Score:2)
Asperger's syndrome (Score:5, Insightful)
Also known as the Geek Defense. Hope it works as well for you as it did for Hans ;)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Indeed. There are all sorts of things aspies are alleged not to be able to "understand", and yet I - as a non-aspie - also don't "understand" much of the law. And, by not understanding, I mean that I recognise that much of the law was written for the benefit of power brokers, not the common man. I know that the law is often an ass, but I do understand that "break law => get punished". An aspie also understands this simple logic, and if he finds the underlying motivations unfair, or does not quite recogni
Re:Asperger's syndrome (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem here IMHO is they are looking to drop the hammer on this guy NOT for what he did, but for the fact that he made all their security look like the POS that it is. I mean, lets be serious here folks, if a guy looking for ALIENS on DIALUP can blow through your security like crap through a goose, then you don't really HAVE any security, now do you? I mean damn! The guy used the old freaking default passwords to gain entry! Hell that is one of the first big NO NOs in security is to leave all that default password crap on the machines. Where the hell did they get their security guys from, Remington College? Maybe they should have taken the truck driving course instead, huh?.
How about instead of wasting all this money on courts and trials for the nutball we talk the UK into banning his ass from the net for a couple of years(I bet they'd be happy to do it just to make this go away and quit wasting the courts time) and instead we use that money for something more important, namely finding out WTF are default passwords doing on a government network in the first place? If their security is THAT damned piss poor then they got a HELL of a lot worse than some nutball looking for little green men to worry about. What if he would have been a REAL bad guy, intent on stealing as much information or causing as much damage as possible? It sounds to me like the US gov needs to have a serious security audit and make sure there isn't a SINGLE machine on their networks that are using that default password bullshit. IMHO that would do a lot more to secure our computers from the enemy than dropping the hammer on some UFO guy.
Parent
Re:Asperger's syndrome (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Nail+Hairyfeet's Hammer==NAILED==Headshot-pwned! (Score:2)
"The problem here IMHO is they are looking to drop the hammer on this guy NOT for what he did, but for the fact that he made all their security look like the POS that it is."
And that's the crux of the matter, put very succinctly.
"Where the hell did they get their security guys from, Remington College?"
Redmond College (MS), maybe?...look for evidence of ballistic chairs?
(I thoroughly despise the 'fixed that for ya' meme-not my place to spin-doctor any but my own words.)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
McKinnon is trying to be tried in the UK, where he'd face 2-3 years in prison. He's already admitted he broke into the computers looking for alien evidence.
If he's successfully extradited to the US, he faces 70 years in jail. This case also show the unfairness of the extradition system between the UK and US. The UK changed its system so that people accused of serious offences could be extradited without any need to show the evidence against the accused to a British court, to speed up the process. The US was
Re: (Score:2)
And what is that old saying "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity?". I have a few buddies that are ex military IT guys and the stories they have told me if the total bureaucratic BS and security theater instead of actual security is frankly scary. Like one who told me how many machines had stupid "default password" style crap leaving security holes the size of the grand canyon and yet at the same time they would break his app every week on the dot, just like clockwork.
Re: (Score:2)
1. These servers were honeypots with nothing important on them- one never admits to a honeypot;
To not reveal that the systems hacked were honeypots would be an extreme violation of the justice system, especially in the US, were the severity of the crime is based on financial harm. If they are honeypots, the prosecution is in fact committing a far more serious crime by not revealing this, (and beyond that, claiming financial damage when there was none) than he did by hacking into military networks.
Re:Asperger's syndrome (Score:4, Insightful)
the aspie "I am stubborn and if I don't find something acceptable to me then I choose to ignore it" defence harms those whose mental illness genuinely prevents them from being in control of themselves. The end result is that more people are denied suitable rehabilitative care.
Gee, that's insightful and all... not.
His appeal has NOTHING to do with why he did what he did, it has to do with the US prosecutor literally threatening to have him "turned over to New Jersey authorities to see him fry" if he didn't accept a plea bargain. The UK judicial system has chosen to not read that as a threat, so far. McKinnon's appeal is based on the US carrying out that threat on a person with aspergers, who is much less capable of fending for himself in such a hostile environment, as being literally a violation of human rights. And the problem is not US law per se, it is UK law permitting the extradition to another country which has threatened to punish him in a way that would be illegal in the UK.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
They should pull a Norway and refuse to hand him over to the USA because our prisons don't meet their minimum standards. The USA is reinstituting slavery in the form of privatized prisons. The only bright spot is that with the current recession and impending depression, some states are starting to release nonviolent "criminals" early without even parole, because they don't have money for the parole system either. This guy, however, wouldn't be one of them. They're going to schedule him for FMITA prison if t
As an aspie: he's talking out the arse (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Well, as an aspie myself, I seriously don't understand his defense. Asperger's Syndrome is basically like being colour blind, except in this case we aren't wired to even notice (much less decode) body language. I can tell if somebody screams or laughs, but everything else doesn't even exist for me. And far as I can tell mom can't even tell if you screamed at her or not, and is constantly taking wrong guesses there.
So offending people face to face or commiting social faux pas is a lot easier, because where someone else would take a hint, you don't even have a hint. E.g., I've had stuff like being told "dude, why didn't you stop it with that terminally bored face in the meeting? Didn't you see the way the boss was looking at you?" And I was thinking he looks at me because he likes me or something.
It's also very easy to conclude stuff like "everyone else is stupid" when you lack the hints that she's just making conversation and trying to sound interesting (or so I'm told,) or he's lying to you and hoping _you_ are stupid enough to believe him. (I find that if you dig deep enough in why someone insists on something illogical, you'll actually find a hidden motive rather than complete idiocy.)
On the other hand, being an aspie is all about logic, so anyone who blames it for not understanding "break law => get punished" is talking out the arse.
And you _can_ learn to function pretty normally in society by using logic, an I mean in a lot more detail than "break law => get punished". I've read a lot about psychology and anthropology, for example, just to know what I'm supposed to do or not to do, in the absence of ad-hoc hints to change the course.
2. _However_, Asperger's Syndrome has a very high probability of co-morbidity with something else, like OCD, OCPD, ADHD and going all the way to sociopathy.
And it seems to me like the _real_ problem of both this guy and Hans (the other with the aspie defense) is actually sociopathy. Both seem to be self-centered arseholes, and both seem to think that the law is some kind of game, among other symptoms.
I don't think we let people free just because they're sociopaths. In fact, most of the population in prisons scores over 20, a normal person scores 2-3, and 30 is the limit for outright psychopathy. That lack of empathy for their fellow man and society is usually what gets half of them into prison. (And the other half into upper management.)
But at any rate, that's a completely different mental disorder. And blaming it on Asperger's Syndrome does a disservice to everyone.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
With all that inability to detect social cues, just how well do you think you would do in a supermax prison?
THAT is what the entire defense is about -- the cruelty of extraditing a UK citizen to the US to face punishment he would never face in his home country for committing a crime in his home country. It isn't like he fled the US, and is hiding out in the UK. He went UFO searching on some US computers via the internet and now the US wants to extradite for it.
Think of it this way. If, from the comfort o
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry to break it to you, but very few people do that great in a prison. It's supposed to be a punishment and deterrent, ya know?
So, yes, I probably wouldn't do well at all in a prison. Guess what? So I don't break the law.
It's unfortunate if that's his problem, but I don't think any condition should be a blanket ticket to break any laws without punishment.
Or in other words, thank you very much, but I'll reserve my compassion for victims, not for some guy who figured out he can ignore the law.
Re:As an aspie: he's talking out the arse (Score:4, Insightful)
So, yes, I probably wouldn't do well at all in a prison. Guess what? So I don't break the law.
I'll bet you a hundred dollars you've violated the laws of other countries, should you be extradited to them for trial and incarceration?
Why not? Why is Mckinnon any more special than you?
I don't think any condition should be a blanket ticket to break any laws without punishment.
Why do you keep saying that? You are lying by assumption. I've already told you that Mckinnon is NOT using aspergers as a defense against punishment. He has confessed to the crime and has made absolutely no defense against being prosecuted for it in his home country. Quit making shit up don Quixote.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
All very valid points - but do his self-admitted offences deserve 70 years in jail, or even 'see him fry' in New Jersey? As opposed to the 2-3 years he faces if convicted in a British Court?
The law is about justice, not just punishment. I don't think his offences justify a death sentence, either one threatend by the US government, or from his own hand in fear of what they've threatened him with.
Re: (Score:2)
...no person can be extradited to a country that their human rights will be violated i.e the death penalty.
But the maximum penalty is 10 years for what he is charged with: hacking&trashing a computer (which he admitted to). So where is his human rights being violated?
Hacker vs Cracker (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
*puts on tinfoil hat* (Score:5, Funny)
Looks like MI6 doesn't want to lose one of their best guys.
Blame the programmers (Score:2)
Considering he has Asperger's syndrome I doubt much social engineering was involved here. The problem is the code.
You can't blame a child for playing with a gun. You can blame the parent for leaving it around. Autism don't necessarily know whats right and wrong.
So....Quit hiring cheap programmers and actually pay for someone who can write something secure. People with
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Considering he has Asperger's syndrome I doubt much social engineering was involved here.
More like persistence I think.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
He is NOT a child. He certainly understands that the consequence of breaking the law is to go to prison. Just because he didn't care about the consequences isn't a defence.
The whole issue of "bad security" is a red herring. A number of years back, a friend of mine used to leave his keys in his car and his car unlocked in case a friend of his needed to borrow it. One cold winter night a guy stole his car, held up a store, and then wrapped the car around a telephone pole. Guess what? It was still a crim
Disappearing tags (Score:2)
Has anyone else noticed that the offbeat story tags have started disappearing after a while, at least on some stories? Makes me think one of the editors is tampering.
Shouldn't be long until "whitey" and "cracka" disappear from the tags list, then.
Re: (Score:2)
"Shouldn't be long until "whitey" and "cracka" disappear from the tags list, then."
And none too soon, IMHO!
Racism, prejudice, and bigotry are sooo last millennium. Should have been done away with long ago if we were truly the 'intelligent species' we claimed to be.
Re: (Score:2)
Racism, prejudice, and bigotry are sooo last millennium. Should have been done away with long ago if we were truly the 'intelligent species' we claimed to be.
Sure. It'll happen just as soon as we kill all those god-damned _________s.
Aspergers Syndrome defense? (Score:2)
How can you use that as a defense for extradition or anything for that matter?
Empathy for the system (Score:2, Insightful)
What the hell.... (Score:2)
US government spys on US citizens..... and the digital leakage problems....
Isn't this the guy looking for UFO knowledge evidence?
Hmmm, maybe he found weapons of mass destruction?
This shows the UK does not respect its citizens (Score:2)
Or would "subject" be a more appropriate term?
This kind of thing would not happen in other European countries. Extraditing your own people to another country when they've not been convicted of any crime? That's ludicrous.
This is also an example of Bliar's disgusting submission to Bush's corrupt administration. The extradition agreement is entirely lopsided, the US doesn't have to extradite its own citizens based on a UK judge's whim. If it was at all possible, war criminals such as Kissinger would be at ris
the real issue is .. (Score:2)
He should stay in the UK and get help (Score:2, Insightful)
Similar battles for justice continue to this day. McKinnon felt he was doing the right thing. But at t
What an Idiot (Score:2)
I have little sympathy for Gary McKinnon. That doesn't make the actions of the courts right ot just, mind you.
He's "into computers" and intelligent enough to exploit vulnerabilities in others' systems to gain unauthorised access. He should therefore have been paying attention to the US (and UK's) "war on terror" and the absurd, heavy-handed measures that they've brought in in the name of security.
What on earth did he think he was doing? Why did he think that he wouldn't get caught and made an example of?
Re: (Score:2)
Because the UK doesn't trust the USA? (Score:3, Insightful)
"Why would they even consider not extraditing him?"
Because the UK doesn't trust the US legal system?
The USA is a country that locks up people indefinitely in a third country when it's not sure that its own citizens would accept this kind of regime on their own soil, sometimes taking prisoners to other countries with poor human rights records for interrogation using methods that many of its partners refer to as "torture" (why don't these prisoners get interrogated in the USA? I am sure there is a good reason
Re: (Score:2)
The UK didn't have a problem with "special renditions" (oh what a nasty euphemism - why can't we call it what it really is, "government sponsored kidnapping"?) taking place on our own damn soil.
Frankly, if Teflon Tony and his Team of Toadying Something Nasty That Begins with a "T" were still Prime Minister I have no doubt that McKinnon would be in the US right now.
With you there (Score:2)
I'm with you there buddy. But I don't think voting Tory would make much difference. Maggie wasn't exactly cool in her relationship with the USA. And she didn't have a problem with human rights abuses, she determinedly supported General Pinochet even after the rest of the world turned their back on a man who thought state torture and throwing people out of aircraft was perfectly acceptable behaviour.
David "heir to Blair" Cameron will probably be more of the same. Rather depressing really. Or maybe it's just
It's not cruel and unusual? (Score:2)
It's overcrowded. Prisoners routinely experience rape and violence. They do not get proper medical treatment.
FWIW the prison system in France is pretty fucked up; but we don't jail people for 40 years for non-violent offenses. In fact we don't even jail people for 40 years for violent offenses.
What is he responsible for? (Score:2)
Has he caused any harm to any one?
Has he stolen property?
No and no. He just took a peek at something he was not authorized to look at. Big fucking deal.
what he is responsible for is .. (Score:2)
No, but it's easier for some prosecutor to go after McKinnon than have to hunt down some real cyber criminals. They don't give a fuck if he is innocent or not, it's the guilty verdict that count.
One among many [guardian.co.uk], what he actually did, was access some password-less [bbc.co.uk] WinNT machines and installed a remote desktop application. All in the pursuit of info on