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Seattle Flushes $5M High-Tech Toilets
Posted by
kdawson
on Mon Aug 18, 2008 07:18 AM
from the siruis-cybernetics-corp.-was-here dept.
from the siruis-cybernetics-corp.-was-here dept.
theodp writes "Hopes were high back in 2004 as Seattle's posh public potties opened for business. But four years later, city officials have said good riddance to the five high-tech toilets, self-cleaning and cylindrical, that had cost Seattle $5 million. The city unloaded them on eBay for just $12,549. The commodes had become filthy hide-outs for drug use and prostitution."
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Just Remember... (Score:5, Funny)
God, I wish I didn't have to move.
Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Interesting)
The insight here was that they were self-cleaning so no need for a janitor.
But maybe an option should have been that if somebody was there for more than 30 minutes then the self cleaning should have started.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, the homeless get free showers and the prostitutes stop being dirty*.
Win/Win.
*Of course, she might have to do a little gymnastics depending upon the location of the cleansing jets.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see: They estimated maintenance costs of $600,000 a year [nwsource.com]. I don't know much about wages in the US, but it's fair to assume that 5 janitors would have done the job at a lower price.
Ignoring the price tag and maintenance cost I'm still wondering why those toilets failed in Seattle. We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)
We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.
A) Funny parts bolded.
B) Your friend is slow. I suggest a rolling machine.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)
Luckily I do not suffer from that particular affliction.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Interesting)
There are both mental and physical side effects, depending on the addiction. For some things, like alcohol for those who have been constantly inebriated, or for opiates, not taking the drugs can be lethal. Methadone exists for a reason.
For other addictions, though, the side effects are purely mental. Don't exercise for two days, and you start thinking you see pudge forming on your belly. Don't smoke weed for a day (if you have the 5-6 per day addition), and you start realizing how bad your life is.
It does not mean simply that doing it is pleasurable.
Plenty of people can become addicted to adrenaline rush through some method or another. They are usually said to be addicted to the source, not the adrenaline.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm always amazed at how stupid city councils can be. I live in Chapel Hill, and ours is out-there. Our downtown is suffering from stiff competition from South Point and other new shopping locations. Many stores are closed up, and our downtown may suffer a long slow decay. So what do we do? Our city council's actions over the last 8 years:
- Bring a homeless shelter 1 block from the center of town
- Build benches along the main street, one block from the homeless shelter
- Increase parking rates, and make sure to provide no 2-hour free or validated parking
Brilliant... just brilliant. Here's a story about our mayor. Our hospital is accessed by a congested two-lane road from the south, and ambulances get stuck just like all the rest. UNC wants to widen the road, and there's plenty of legit reasons why many people oppose the plan. Why does our mayor oppose it? He is opposed to all additional road surface. His compromise plan? Allow the road to be widened, but then remove the pavement from a 4-lane road north of town to offset the total paved area.
The city council actually passed this plan. When the city called the DOT and asked for the road to be narrowed, the poor guy over there had no idea what to do. There's no road narrowing department at the DOT. Top level people at the DOT were consulted, and it is now standard at DOT to ignore any silly Chapel Hill requests!
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)
An expensive, fragile, high-tech gadget is dumped into the public space and ends up broken? I'm shocked.
I wonder how the argument for these went:
1. Do you suppose the automatic door-opening could possibly fail or be defeated? No, our technology is foolproof.
2. Do you suppose people may clog it up in a variety of artful ways? No, why would anyone purposefully mess up a public bathroom?
3. Do you suppose it may become a way-station for illegal acts that requires around 15min of privacy? No, all illegal acts require very long times and abundant space.
4. Isn't it expensive to buy/install? Don't worry, people excrete almost continually, the money will just pour in.
5. Won't it be expensive to maintain? No, modern technology maintains itself.
Parent
Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Informative)
The reason they can't open the doors after a couple of minutes has to do with ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). At least that is according to Norman Augustine in Augustine's Laws. By law the toilets must be accessible to handicapped persons. It can take a handicapped person a long time to get there business done.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pay toilets were popular in the U.S. in the 1970s. They ended up being banned [wikipedia.org] in many cities; where they weren't, vandalism and theft put them out of business.
If you consider that the alternative to free public toilets is people pissing, even crapping, in the alleys, then free public toilets are clearly a public good. If people are using them for prostitution and drug use, if homeless people are using them for shelter, that's a symptom of deeper problems. These problems ought to be solved by removing laws against consensual crimes and by addressing homelessness with affordable housing and decent health care - not by encouraging people to piss in the alley.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference, I imagine, is in the 'quality' of the public that surrounds the toilets. The particular venue these were installed at in Seattle is a prime tourist area mixed in with a hefty homeless population.
And since it is thriving with tourists, there is a bit of a crime problem as the more enterprising homeless find ways of making do off them.
I've never visited Berlin, but my limited knowledge of it is you enjoy moderately pleasant, if unpredictable, summers with bitter winters. That tends to keep the homeless population either down or 'pinned down' to specific areas.
There hasn't been one time that I've visited Seattle/downtown and not had a problem avoiding tripping over people living on the streets there. It didn't matter where in the area I was.
Granted, that was downtown. But still, you'd have to be a fool to put out any sort of public facilities there without either the expectation that either they would be trashed almost immediately and continuously, or that you'd have to actually pay someone to monitor them almost 24/7.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:5, Funny)
Just like the ones at Robert Downey's house.
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Re:Just Remember... (Score:4, Informative)
Please RTFA. Among other details:
a) The self-cleaning broke down somewhere during the 4 years
b) It already has a time-limit (15 minutes) after which it simply opens the door
Parent
Tragic. (Score:5, Funny)
Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:5, Insightful)
In Vancouver, BC, drug use and prostitution are (if not outright legal) decriminalized. This means that the government is able to help those with a problem instead of being forced to put them away in prison.
The public toilets getting abused is a sign of a much deeper problem. It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows and away from the help that the victims so desperately need.
It's a total waste of time to sell these things. It just means fewer public bathrooms downtown, and if you've ever been to a city with no public bathrooms (Philadelphia), you know that the terrible smell is the result.
Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows
Into the shadows? Hardly. Sounds like you've never been to Victor Steinbrueck Park [wikipedia.org] in the middle of the most touristy section of Seattle, where you can see dozens of addicts and homeless cheerfully loitering about day or night. From Wikipedia:
"The park is a popular gathering place for tourists, but also for the mentally ill, vagrants, alcoholics, and drug addicts. Public inebriation, nudity, and calls for assistance for unconscious individuals are common; a fall-off due to increased policing in the 1990s proved shortlived. There are a lot of drug-related misdemeanors and even minor felonies, though there have been no homicides."
The only thing I find shocking is that this outcome surprised anyone.
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Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:5, Funny)
"The park is a popular gathering place for tourists, but also for the mentally ill, vagrants, alcoholics, and drug addicts. Public inebriation, nudity, and calls for assistance for unconscious individuals are common; a fall-off due to increased policing in the 1990s proved shortlived. There are a lot of drug-related misdemeanors and even minor felonies, though there have been no homicides."
Hey I'm british
That describes just about any sort of park I visit
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Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:4, Informative)
That's an interesting question.
Last I heard (and I have seen evidence of this) is that Wal-Mart effectively has an official company policy that RVs and similar vehicles are allowed to park in their parking lots overnight, even for extended periods. Most other businesses would call the cops or chase the RVs away.
The rationale for Wal-Mart? The people in that camper parked in the parking lot are likely going to go for the most convenient supply shopping available.
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Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:5, Insightful)
The only thing I find shocking is that this outcome surprised anyone.
Surprised, no. Disappointed, yes. I saw self-cleaning public toilets last week in Paris that were being used by the public for what they were intended for, not for illicit behavior. Why is it they work there and not in Seattle? My theory is that it's a societal thing--for some reason the citizenry of Seattle did not kick the druggies and prostitutes out of the toilets when they saw them. If a high enough % of the public objects to bad behavior, it becomes unacceptable and it stops. Parisians apparently made it clear that they wanted their toilets to stay toilets whereas Seattle-ites didn't care enough to maintain control of their city. Until Americans stand up and take back their streets, this is the type of result we might as well get used to.
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Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:5, Informative)
As a Parisian, I can tell you that the people here will probably not move their finger to prevent druggies and prostitutes in toilets. But the cops will.
I think the issue in Seattles is the classic political correctness of Americans:
Toilets had to be accessible to disabled people.
Due to that requirement, you end up with huge toilets, which, by definition, have more use than the Parisian sanisette (I think that if a prostitute went with customers in a sanisette, there would probably be people outside clapping their hands when they would come out, due to sheer awesomeness of such an act).
Also, being huge, Seattles sanisettes were costly, so they ended up with only 5. 5 is a very small number, so of course they have been broken very fast.
In Paris, sanisettes are NOT accessible to disabled people. There are special ones that ARE accessible, but those are NOT accessible to the general public (you need a specific card), so they are kept in a correct state.
That is not politically correct. But it works.
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Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:5, Informative)
I'm guessing you have never been to the downtown east side in Vancouver.
They are not even close to decriminalized. Just because they have one safe injection site does not mean that the police won't arrest you for dealing. It also does not mean they won't arrest you if they catch you using drugs in public.
The reality of the downtown east side is that injection drug use is so rampant that the police couldn't arrest everyone who did it even if they wanted to. The single safe injection site isn't even close to large enough and neither are the detox centers. The result is that the dug users still shoot up in the alleys.
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Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:5, Informative)
There was an article on this in the NY Times a couple of weeks ago. In addition to drug use and prostitution, people would leave so much trash in the toilets that the automatic scrubbers had to be disabled or they jammed on the trash... and as a result, the toilets became so disgusting that even the druggies avoided them.
""I'm not going to lie: I used to smoke crack in there," said one homeless woman, Veronyka Cordner, nodding toward the toilet behind Pike Place Market. "But I won't even go inside that thing now. It's disgusting.""
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/17/us/17toilets.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=seattle%20public%20toilet&st=cse&oref=slogin [nytimes.com]
IMO, the reason this works in other countries but not in the U.S. has nothing to do with our "puritanical mindset": instead, it's because Americans have no concept of public common space. We feel that everything on Earth is for our exclusive personal use until someone tries to stop us.
Parent
Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... (Score:5, Informative)
Another reason it fails in the U.S. is that it has a much larger homeless and mentally ill population roaming the streets of its major cities than just about any other first-world country I can name.
Parent
Re:Drug use and Prostitution are normal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that heroin is not 100% addictive: perhaps more like 10% [reason.com] of heroin users are addicts. And it was first synthesized in 1874 and only became popular after it was independently re-synthesized 23 years later, and was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute until 1910 [wikipedia.org] - its addictive nature has in fact been understood for less than a century.
Yeah, you might end up like David Bowie or Keith Richards or hundreds of other famous musicians, actors, writers, artists who have used heroin...for those can afford their fix and have access to the pure stuff, heroin use or even addiction is not a big deal [guardian.co.uk]. It's less damaging to your body than addiction to cigarettes or alcohol.
As Bill Hicks [alternativereel.com] noted, "If you don't think drugs have done good things for us, then take all of your records, tapes and CDs and burn them. Cause you know what? The musicians that made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years? Real fucking high on drugs."
Which is not to suggest anyone go shoot heroin. The crap you buy from typical street dealers is cut with gods-only-know-what and may well kill you; and really, there are better ways to spend your time and money.
Again, your facts are in error. The prostitution shops were only licensed in 2000, not "decades" ago. And they're shutting down owners believed to have criminal connections, not the entire district.
I will recommend Peter McWilliams' book Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country, available online at www.mcwilliams.com [mcwilliams.com].
Sadly, McWilliams became a victim of the War on (some) Drugs when his access to medical marijuana, used to treat symptoms of AIDS and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma was ended; forced to switch to the ineffective Marinol, he aspirated his own vomit and choked to death.
The misinformation you are spreading is killing people. Please, cut it out.
Parent
Open the pot bay door, Hal (Score:5, Funny)
What is the story here? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What is the story here? (Score:4, Insightful)
Public facilities in some areas will be ruined by the hopeless loser (it's no troll to call them what they are!) segment of the public, such as bums, drunks, and junkies. That makes providing those facilities a waste.
Parent
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
And if it had been a massive success, $5M would have been pocket change compared to the convenience and cost effectiveness of full automation.
I hear Google is offering a replacement (Score:5, Funny)
Google is offering the use of a new set of public gToilets in exchange for the ability to scan your waste for leftover products and potential diseases and then offer you contextual ads while you're in the unit.
Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement (Score:5, Funny)
It appears there is blood in your waste.
Shopping results for colon cancer:
(did you mean inflamatory bowel disease?)
Parent
toilet homour (Score:4, Funny)
So Seattle's authorities were flushed with success untill their 'Big Idea' went down the pan!
Like intentionally uncomfortable benches (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't understandy why, either - care to elaborate? What is wrong with society when it tries to make sure public stuff is used for the intended purpose?
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Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches (Score:4, Insightful)
Because you're just pushing the problem somewhere else. The actual problem is homelessness; the homeless sleeping on park benches is just a symptom of the problem. The homeless obviously need somewhere to sleep. Making park benches uncomfortable to sleep on could (I imagine) make the homeless look somewhere else to sleep. Like people's front/backyards. It's the law of unintended consequences.
What society should be doing it helping these people. You can't just treat them like pests and hope they go away. They're still people, they just don't have a home.
Parent
New tag line (Score:5, Funny)
Slashdot - news of turds, stuff that splatters.
that's what starbucks is for (Score:5, Interesting)
and seattle, the home of starbucks, should have known that
i'm dead serious. i live in midtown manhattan, and finding a toilet for a tourist, nevermind a resident, is near impossible were it not for a certain chain of coffee shops that monopolize every street corner. and they always have a restroom (unless they are those tiny stores), and those restrooms are open to the public without fail. there are some starbucks nearby subway entrances where if you go sit, you'll notice there is a regular stream of visitors... to the commode, and no one even pretends to want to buy a coffee
you really have to understand what a blessing this is. it really is unique to starbucks: every other establishment, including mcdonalds and other fast food places, are usually hostile to making its restrooms available. but i guess coffee chases away vagrants, as the unstable and stinky always seem to congregate to mcdonalds for their restroom needs, bothering the grumbling manager behind the counter for a key rather than shuffling a few more steps around the corner to go to a keyless starbucks restroom. why the homeless do this, i don't know, but that is 100% true. habit? familiarity?
i used to think the city made starbucks keep their restrooms open for this very reason, as it is such a huge boon in convenience for midtown visitors, workers, and residents. or perhaps a marketing droid at starbucks headquarters noticed a correlation between sales and restroom availability? who knows, but for a non-new york city resident, it is hard to understand what a blessing starbucks restrooms have been for the city
whatever the reason for the mana from heaven of bum-free starbucks commodes in midtown, i'd like to thank starbucks with my very own original marketing slogan, they can use it free of charge:
"if you are thinking of something steaming and brown, think starbucks in midtown" ;-)
Private - Public Toilets Grant (Score:5, Interesting)
In Richmond, UK:
http://www.richmond.gov.uk/home/transport_and_streets/road_and_pathway_maintenance/public_conveniences/community_toilet_scheme.htm [richmond.gov.uk]
the Local Council will give you an annual grant if your shop's staff toilet is opened to the public. To qualify, it has to be free for use, even for non-customers. Pubs which join the scheme have a notice put up outside.
This is cheaper than opening separate public use toilets, and helps the shops and pubs keep their toilets funded.
Over engineering (Score:5, Interesting)
600.000 a year a piece?
Now, what would it really have cost to have a toilet lady in a simple old fashioned public toilet who just cleanes the place, keeps an eye out on the area?
But no, the public toilets are closed, the toilet ladies fired and people pee against building and then we spend years trying to find high-tech solutions.
Say a single toilet lady makes 100k a year, a nice salary indeed for cleaning. That would have allowed 6 people to have a job, more then enough to keep one place staffed 24/7. No need for a 9/11 link or a 15 minute deadline.
Really, there is such a thing as overthinking a problem.
Re:Amsterdam (Score:4, Funny)
Amsterdam's toilets look like a 404? What, do you have to piss into the hole between the two fours?
Parent
Re:$5,000,000? (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds like they got ripped off in the first place.
True, especially since we have the same toilets here (Berlin, Germany). IIRC they were installed for free, the deal being that the toilet operator uses the outside walls for advertising. And gets 50c per pee, but I doubt that this covers the expenses.
AFAICT we don't have any problems with drugs and prostitution on these toilets, in case you're curious.
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Re:$5,000,000? (Score:5, Insightful)
Like, you know, every product out there.
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Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
1. Legalize drugs and prostitution.
2. ???
3. PROFIT!!!
But how do they profit when they can't steal^Wseize your property on a whim any more?
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Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
The next group who wishes to stay in office will just change them back though.
Same reason why many conservatives are hypocrites. They'll whine about how the Democrats are being a bunch of commies and how "This isn't the land of my fathers. The government is taking everything away. This country is no longer free!". All the while when they're going on about freedom.
Then if you dare mention legalizing drugs and/or prostitution, letting a TV network show what they want (like, heaven forbid a show with gay characters), or letting anybody worship whatever deity they choose, then they get up in arms. In my area of the country it's been hell just getting the blue laws repealed - there are still some towns that won't let you buy alcohol on a Sunday, and in the town next to the college I attended you couldn't buy general goods on Sunday - the super Wal-mart had a large divider that they had to pull between the grocery section and the general goods on Sundays :S.
Basically, they want freedom so long as the free act passes their "raht" philosophy. If "that ain't raht", then you shouldn't be able to do it - all other approved activities are fine to remain free.
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Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere (Score:4, Insightful)
Q: "How are the voters of Seattle going to reward that terrible waste?"
A: By reelecting them in a landslide.
No I don't understand why, but its pretty common all across America.
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