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IBM Granted "Paper-or-Plastic?" Patent
Posted by
kdawson
on Wed Aug 06, 2008 01:46 AM
from the not-the-onion dept.
from the not-the-onion dept.
theodp writes "On Tuesday, IBM was granted US Patent No. 7,407,089 for storing a preference for paper or plastic grocery bags on customer cards and displaying a picture of said preference after a card is scanned. The invention, Big Blue explains, eliminates the 'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier' that results when 'Paper or Plastic?' must be asked. The patent claims also cover affixing a cute sticker of a paper or plastic bag to a customer card to indicate packaging preferences. So does this pass the 'significant technical content' test, IBM'ers?"
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This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Interesting)
We have no bags at the supermarkets anymore, unless you buy them. So almost everybody has bags or boxes that will last much longer.
Environment and such, ya know. Other countries do the same, I believe.
Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Funny)
Would you like to kill a tree or a turtle?
Parent
Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Funny)
Would you like to kill a tree or a turtle?
If I can chop down a tree so it lands on a turtle can I have both?
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Funny)
I'd rather just have turtle soup in a paper cup.
With chives.
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Insightful)
In Seattle Washington, our City Counsel just voted a 20 cent per bag (paper or plastic) tax. Indeed, the city also outlawed the sale of water in plastic single-use bottles in or on all city owned property. I believe that more and more municipalities are headed this direction.
But it's still an asinine patent that is a perfect example of one of the many problems with our patent system.
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Interesting)
In Australia we have bags that are bought in stores as well as plastic bags, giving people the choice on whether or not they're environmentally conscious.
However I saw a news report about research (the research's validity I know nothing about, so it could be complete hogwash) showing that the bags that are sold and used in preference to the plastic bags aren't biodegradable or recyclable (although they are reusable of course). In comparison there are biodegradable plastic bags which will degrade within 6 months of being buried in a dump.
I think the biodegradable plastic bags sound like the better choice and much more preferable then a 20 cent tax per bag (although it might end up costing more then 20 cents per bag, at least its actually doing something rather then just punishing people). Although I don't know if supermarkets (in either Australia or America) use the bio-degradable ones, or if they use the traditional plastic bags.
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Insightful)
the really amazing thing here is that those bags seem to know where they are, so they don't decompose when they're not buried in a dump!
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know if that's actually illegal here or not, but after moving to Rotterdam (from Groningen btw), and being unable to find a place to dump glass, and other kinds of waste at a walking distance from my house, I tried searching on the city web pages for the closest point. Couldn't find any. They list only major locations far, far, far away.
I called them at this phone number. The lady said:
Get your car, and take them to...
Long story short: after telling them I did not have a car, and needed a place at a 15min walking distance, I was told I there was no such a place in the city center, and that I should simply dump my glass in the regular trash.
There are a lot of people living in the center of Rotterdam, but no underground trash disposing.
It may be illegal to throw these things in the trash, but even in the center of major cities in the NL, there is often no infrastructure to separate the trash, and the city gov. itself will tell you to trash everything together.
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the biodegradable plastic bags sound like the better choice and much more preferable then a 20 cent tax per bag (although it might end up costing more then 20 cents per bag, at least its actually doing something rather then just punishing people)
Your recommendation appears based on the notion that not using plastic bags is punishing someone. I don't see how alternative approaches can ever be considered punishment, given that convenience of any type involves a trade-off, and the negative connotations of the term are more appropriate for bumperstickers and negative campaign ads than for reasoned discussion.
By offering plastic bags, the tradeoff is mostly the wasteful use of resources vs. the customer being able to carry home their purchases. With plastic rings for 6-packs of aluminum cans, the tradeoff includes an even more wasteful use of resources, threats to the marine environment, and the collective cost borne by the rest of society vs. marketing effectiveness (6-packs on sale!) on the part of the retailer, and easy-to-carry benefits on the part of the consumer.
My own opinion is that anything that encourages environmental responsibility and awareness of the true costs involved by all parties is A Good Thing. If that requires a minor incovenience or a similarly minor change of habit and routine on the part of everyone involved, so be it. If it involves a surcharge, then the surcharge will remind people that they have to take into account what the realities are when they make their purchasing decisions and force them responsible for their actions. At the moment, we don't see $20 Environmentally Destructive Surcharge sticker on computer motherboards, but if it comes to that, I'm sure we'd all benefit from it.
You can, of course, seek or encourage compromise solutions. However, the plastic bag problem is relatively simple to fix, so I don't see any need to pursue half-hearted or partially-effective schemes at the periphery when something more fundamental needs addressing. Namely, resources of all types have their limits, we're too wasteful as a society, we're only too happy to remain ignorant of the consequences, and everything has a cost that someone, somewhere pays.
The irony here is that instead of taking the opportunity to use the plastic bag issue as a symbolic Step in the Right Direction and moving on with what we've learned, we're busy arguing over whether consumers are being punished.
Won't someone please think of the consumers! ;-)
Parent
Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Insightful)
Plastic bags are NOT a problem. Stop buying into it and read up.
1) The degrade a lot faster then paper bags.
2) Bags made in the US are not from oil(You didn't make this point, but it always crops up)
3) A lot of people use plastic bags as garbage bags. Getting rid of plastic grocery bags means more people are buying 'regular' trash bags; which are far worse in every respect.
Charging a fee hurts the poor. Yes, 1 dollar can mean the difference between eating and not eating.
How about we do it another way? a 20 cent discount for every reusable bag a customer uses?
A large portion of people would switch very quickly. Of course we still have the garbage bag issue.
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Interesting)
As much as I hate Wal-Mart, I have to say that they have been using biodegradable bags for a very long time. Good thing, too, because those loonies will try to put every single item in its own bag if you're not careful.
Personally, I'd rather just see biodegradable "plastic" bags than anything else. My wife and I reuse all shopping bags as trash bags, and although paper is a nice idea and all, it is basically useless for that or any other bag purpose, because it's not waterproof.
Over here in Japan, they not only give you a million bags, but they are non-biodegradable. You can buy "eco-bags," but to be perfectly honest, I don't like them. They're synthetic canvas, so I imagine they're much worse for the environment, and they look like crap after about 6 months. Walking around with a filthy, scruffy canvas bag is not really... my style.
That said, it would probably be fine if everyone did it, but that's not going to happen unless they start charging for bags, and then we'd have to buy trash bags anyway.
Biodegradable shopping bags, please!
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Not all plastic... (Score:4, Informative)
Not all plastic comes from oil. Most forms of biodegradable plastics actually comes from organic substances, normally plant.
That's what makes them biodegradable.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
In the UK, Marks and Spencers started charging about 5p for a carrier bag. I changed my habits to re-using carrier bags almost instantly. They seem to have stopped that and just give out really posh carrier bags with proper handles and everything. This also works as they look too posh to just stuff with rubbish and throw out.
Re:How about - ATM language pref (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Interesting)
Carbon neutrality or disguised corporate greed? You choose.
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:4, Insightful)
-1 plastic bag not given for free
+1 plastic bag bought from store to use as trash
------------
0 Total gain in plastic quantity used in the household. Carbon Offset == 0.
I don't care about paying for the bags. I was noting that the "green" argument is crap. Let the supermarkets tell me that free bags make a 200,000USD dent in their budget every month and due to diminishing margin and increased food price they can't afford to do it anymore. That's fine. I run a business and I can understand. Just don't try to tell me it's going to save the planet.
I did my very small part with energy saving bulbs, tap water thingy supposed to save water, sorting my garbage between paper, plastic, glass and the rest and setting up global switch so I don't have dozen of electronic equipment sucking power while idling. And I dutifully pay my premium on "fair trade" products even though I don't believe it is a good solution nor that the money really goes where it should.
Even my washing machine was almost twice as expensive because of the 5 start energy rating and water saving feature. That investment paid for itself though.
Finally I don't think that asking people to "go green" is any solution. Government should coerce companies and people to do "the right thing" through taxes and incentives.
I am one of the few here to be happy about the current gas price, I understand the pain it is causing worldwide especially in under-developed nations but I sincerly hope it will double again and increase even more the incentive for govs and private companies to start looking at alternatives. A little jump in price and even BMW announces electric cars... double it and we might get the few millions investment we need to get decent solar panel mass produced at competitive rate. It might even become a requirement in future zoning law who knows...
You want to save the planet? Use a bike and vote for officials who will actually enforce environmental policies.
Cheers
Parent
Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:4, Interesting)
A billion bags in a country the size of Ireland. The US has 75 times the population meaning it could save 75 billion bags a year.
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Insightful)
All in the name of environment.
The cost saved has never been passed to customers. Worse yet, stores have been taking in even more profits, selling at amazing high price all kinds of shopping bags.
The cost is totally transfered to customers. There are other side affects too, as a result. People used to put their garbage in those plastic bags, tied them up before throwing them in the common garbage bin. Now, they just dump the garbage directly in, bringing flies and other insects, and having very stinky neighborhood.
We used to use those as garbage bags as well, and as we are only two, we don't have much garbage. The smallish grocery store bags are just perfect for daily garbage. Now we have to buy those larger black bags, which we can't fill in one day. Since we don't like stinky overnight garbage in house, we throw away a half empty bag, which is a waste. So, for our family of two, this policy does not seem to do any good to environment. Unless we are willing to keep garbage overnight, of course.
The so-called experts on the panel who decided this policy (in closed door, as all other policies in China) admitted they didn't consider any of the social and cost issues before they passed it. As if this is new to any one.
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Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium (Score:5, Insightful)
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debit or credit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:debit or credit (Score:5, Funny)
So you show the cashier a card to show them which card you prefer to show them?
Huh?
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Re:debit or credit (Score:5, Funny)
How about we also solve the "debit or credit" problem I have to deal with each time I visit the mini-mart?
Let me guess: I'll have to put a "credit" sticker on my credit cards, and a "debit" one on my debit cards.
If only there was a way to store this bit of data electronically, and somehow attach it to the card itself...
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Re:debit or credit (Score:4, Interesting)
There's a difference? In the UK we just insert the card and type our PIN. Before that we handed over our card, signed the receipt and watched as the cashier didn't compare signatures. No-one seems to care between credit and debit because Visa do both and don't make too much differentiation.
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Re:debit or credit (Score:5, Informative)
the reason the merchant prefers debit is because it is a fixed per payment charge for them, but credit card payments are a fraction of the amount charged.
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Re:debit or credit (Score:5, Funny)
And you can work around IBM's patent by tattooing your preference for paper or plastic on your forehead!
No they'll still have you "A computational device indicating preference". You'll have to pay royalties or forfeit your head.
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Inconvenient Identification (Score:5, Insightful)
The answer. (Score:5, Funny)
Q: does this pass the 'significant technical content' test?
First the long answer: Nope.
Now the short answer: No.
meanwhile abroad... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:meanwhile abroad... (Score:5, Funny)
Man, I'd stock up on the -$1 bags!
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not terribly fond of Obama and Obamamania myself but keeping your tires properly inflated is good for your gas mileage. A lot of folks can't be bothered to spend the couple of moments it takes to check their tire pressure once or even twice a month. They pay for that by slightly lower gas mileage.
And just to remain somewhat on topic:
Primary Examiner: Lee; Michael G.
Assistant Examiner: Savusdiphol; Paultep
^^^^ These two guys are complete and utter morons. I bet they don't check their tire pressure regularly either and I know they aren't ever going to produce anything to ri
Re:meanwhile abroad... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but we can afford it now that Obama has reduced American oil consumption by enlightening us all to the fact that we should check the air pressure in the tires of our vehicles for maximum efficiency. Screw Chavez, we don't need his oil anymore! We have Obama and his tire pressure gauges! We are saved! :)
It may sound funny but the truth is he's absolutely right. The whole point wasn't about tire pressure that's pro oil Republicans making fun of "conserving" energy like only hyppies and lefties conserve energy. The truth is you can save 3% by keeping tires properly inflated and drilling in the arctic reserve will add 1% to our oil in 20 years. The fastest easiest way to add more oil to the market is to cut back on usage. Absolute fact. Even the oil companies admit they can't get the new oil to market in less than five to ten years. This is about diverting attention from the real issue and that's the oil companies are trying to gain control of all the oil rights on government land and they want to right to drill anywhere no matter how sensitive. It's manipulative and most of the US is falling for it. Might want to check your facts before you laugh. Since you're on Slashdot I'm guessing you know how to use Google. Do a search and see what the truth is not what the oil company stooges are feeding you.
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So, let's do nothing then... (Score:4, Insightful)
Even the oil companies admit they can't get the new oil to market in less than five to ten years.
So, should we not pursue alternative energy also? It takes time to bring to market also. Heck, even educating and convincing consumers to change their habits takes time. We should not pursue your plan by that logic also. Conservation is a good thing, but it won't replace long term production, unless we just stop growing. We have to get our energy from somewhere.
And 5 years is too long? Pfft! What, are you six? Is that forever to you? Who cares if it takes 50 years...think of the grandchildren! But, seriously, have you heard of the futures market, it speculatively bid on things that are, like, in the future. Part of the reason why oil is so high is because the speculation is that there won't be enough oil in the future to meet demand, thanks for that gift, pal.
The fastest easiest way to add more oil to the market is to cut back on usage.
What? huh? Who cares how much oil you are "adding to the market" if you are not using it! That's like saying, "Hey, everybody! We could add more food to the market if we add just stop eating! Hooray!" Please do not mistake me, I am not against conservation. Clearly in my last analogy, there are some people (not everybody) who could go with less food. They would have more personal wealth and there would be more food available for others, but this will not keep feeding people indefinitely. The world's population today could not have lived on the food supply of ages past, even if everybody was on strict rations.
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Re:meanwhile abroad... (Score:4, Interesting)
You're playing a little fast and loose with your percentages there. You may well be able to save 3% of your gasoline by keeping your tires properly inflated, and drilling the arctic may add 1% to the crude oil supply. However, gasoline and crude oil are two different beasts. You have to account for how much of a given barrel of crude oil winds up in your gas tank, and how much gets used (and/or wasted) elsewhere.
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So what is the invention??? (Score:5, Interesting)
Databases have been known for a few years now. Customer identification cards as well. So now you can patent specific pieces of information when tied to the identification?
Maybe I'm stupid but it seems to me that the system might be in need revision. Perhaps IBM was trying to make a point?
I never really hear what is wrong with plastic... (Score:5, Interesting)
For all the anti plastic bag talk, I've never really heard any reasons WHY they are so bad. The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue? Things barely degrade in landfills anyhow, they are anaerobic.
Maybe these days its oil based.. which maybe somehow slightly valid.. but its nothing compared to petrol. Also, anti-plastic has been around so long it cant be that. So maybe someone can inform me!
While there is probably a good answer(s) ill have shot back at me, I'm still going to be annoyed that its not well conveyed onto consumers WHY this is bad. I feel too much like I'm in 1984 if I just have to know things are bad because everyone says so. Feels like its some minor issue that gets so much press yet if everyone stopped using them it wouldn't help anything at all.. producing huge amounts of paper bags would be a nightmare and is everyone using reusable going to save us all? Most people seem to slack off once they feel they are "doing their bit" by not using plastic bags.. even if they don't know anything about the issues involved.
Re:I never really hear what is wrong with plastic. (Score:5, Insightful)
The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.
correct.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
if they're not biodegradable, then how do you dispose of the millions of bags that are thrown in the trash every day? where do you put them?
If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue?
you under-estimate the number of plastic bags thrown away each day. They aren't only used in supermarkets for your groceries. Practically every store uses them (clothing, electronics, books, everything). There is also plastic packaging. Plastic bags ARE a HUGE problem.
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Re:I never really hear what is wrong with plastic. (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe stuff like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch [wikipedia.org]
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Re:I never really hear what is wrong with plastic. (Score:4, Interesting)
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
Because of their size & weight, plastic bags escape normal disposal options easily. Look around you. Most of the trash I see on the streets is plastic bags.
You probably use thousands of plastic bags every year. Are you so confident of your disposal methods that none of them entered a waterway?
if its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue?
1) Paper bags recycle more readily than plastic.
2) You could just reuse a sturdy bag and that way, not contribute to landfill with the containers you use to take home your shopping at all.
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how is it an issue? (Score:3, Insightful)
For every person who "takes care to dispose" there's six more who don't.
That's an issue.
Not an invention (Score:3, Insightful)
I believe prior art exists for the invention of storing and retrieving user preferences.
Hang on, are people missing the point? (Score:4, Interesting)
IBM have been patenting really really stupidly simple and obvious inventions for quite a while now. It seems that every month /. reports on an IBMer being granted a patent on something like stickers on credit cards, or on/off switches, or a great new way of peeling an orange.
Here's what I think: you've got IBM, a very wealthy company with a very strong brand and a good reputation, and a lot of clever people. Why not solicit crazy-but-patentable ideas from IBMers, drop the small (to IBM) amount of cash on patenting it, and then have a portfolio of crazy stuff. Then when you run into problems with other patents you can pull out a patent on putting a sticker on a bank card and say "Well, you let that through..."
I reckon they're gearing up to give the US patent system an almighty rattling.
What about those for whom it depends... (Score:4, Interesting)
Can the IBM system store such a complex decision process?
Why not? (Score:3, Insightful)
Patents are the Soviet chandaliers of innovation (Score:3, Interesting)
All this money that is being spent pursuing retarded patents like this is classified as R&D spending. It is seen as successful R&D spending because it produces patents (a handy metric for innovation) and money. The question of quality, of whether it actually corresponds to real technological advance, seems to be irrelevant to most people in industry and high office.
The US, seeing itself as a high tech economy, is measuring inputs (R&D money) and gross outputs (patents and the money they produce) and patting itself on the back for the resulting 'growth' (innovation), despite the fact you are producing little or none.
Being completely unaware of the true state of your economy is a dangerous place to be.
In Sweden, you pick the type of bag yourself (Score:4, Interesting)
Here in Sweden, you pick the type of bag yourself and place it on the conveyor belt along with the groceries. (Assuming of course that you didn't bring your own bags or other suitable container with you.)
And then you pack yourself the groceries into the bags.
A plastic bag costs in the ballpark of 25c (US) and a paper bag about 50c (US).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd like a card that says;
"I do not have a customer 'loyalty' card. No, I do not want a customer 'loyalty' card."
Would save me hours of wasted time in the average year. Can I patent this idea?