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H-1B Foes Challenge Bush Administration In Court
Posted by
kdawson
on Sun Jun 01, 2008 02:22 PM
from the by-some-definitions-of-emergency dept.
from the by-some-definitions-of-emergency dept.
theodp writes "Computerworld reports that the Bush administration's recent decision to extend the amount of time foreign nationals can work in the U.S. on student visas is being challenged in a federal lawsuit by H-1B visa opponents. The suit, filed in US District Court by the Immigration Reform Law Institute and joined by The Programmers Guild and other groups, charges that the administration — acting through the Department of Homeland Security — exceeded its legal authority with a no-notice-no-comments 'emergency' rule change that extended the Optional Practical Training work period from one year to 29 months. Critics say this is little more than an effort to skirt around the H-1B cap limit. Because extended stays are limited to those whose degrees are in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) fields, educators are speculating that the rule change will drive international students away from non-STEM majors."
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Bill Gates's Wish Is Homeland Security's Command 374 comments
theodp writes "PC World reports that DHS has extended the time foreign graduates of US colleges can stay in the country and work to almost two-and-a-half years, an 'emergency' change that drew kudos from Microsoft and other H-1B visa stakeholders. Looks like when Bill Gates says 'Jump,' the government asks 'How high?' Bill Gates's Congressional Testimony, March 12, 2008: 'Extending OPT from 12 to 29 months would help to alleviate the crisis employers are facing due to the current H-1B visa shortage. This only requires action by the Executive Branch, and Congress and this Committee should strongly urge the Department of Homeland Security to take such action immediately.' DHS Press Release, April 4, 2008: 'The US Department of Homeland Security released today an interim final rule extending the period of Optional Practical Training (OPT) from 12 to 29 months for qualified F-1 non-immigrant students.'"
[+]
News: Feds Consider H-1B Changes After Uncovering Fraud 254 comments
CWmike writes "A Citizenship and Immigration Services spokesman said today that the agency is weighing a series of reforms to the H-1B application process, including the use of 'independent open-source data' to obtain information about visa seekers or the companies that file the petitions on their behalf. The move follows a report by the agency that found widespread problems and evidence of fraud in the nation's H-1B program, including forged documents, fake degrees and shell companies being used in H-1B applications. It also comes after the controversy caused by changes to the H-1B rules earlier this year."
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ABOLISH THE H1B PROGRAM (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I was under the impression most visa went to outsourcing companies like InfoSys.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
(Microsoft, IBM and Sun are the Americans)
Re:ABOLISH THE H1B PROGRAM (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
IBM says Americans aren't good enough (Score:5, Insightful)
Certain skills still are in strong demand, says Ms. Chota, adding that the company can't find enough qualified graduates with degrees in computer science and those who have knowledge of both business and IT. "In the U.S., unfortunately, there are not enough great computer-science graduates," Ms. Chota says.""
Um excuse me? So, Americans are not good enough for IBM. Even though they go to the same great American universities just like the smarter foreigners.
So, which is it?!?
Parent
Americans are good enough.. just not CHEAP enough. (Score:5, Insightful)
The talent is there, they don't want to work in a field where companies don't want to reward them.
They can't get americans to buy their crappy pay, benefits, and job security, so they want to farm out slave labor they can have deported at their whim.
Parent
Re:Americans are good enough.. just not CHEAP enou (Score:4, Interesting)
How is this insightful? I know plenty of fellow graduates (Canadians) who are making $100K+ fresh out of college. That's not "crappy pay" by any measure I think (these are undergrad degrees, not masters or PhD). Their benefits are also among the best - I know plenty of H1B people at MS who are probably getting *better* medical insurance than they had in Canada! Their vacation and stock plans aren't too shabby either.
I have observed first-hand the shortage of tech workers. We're talking top-tier tech workers, not VB script monkeys. There are PLENTY of great grads coming out of American schools - but it is *not enough* to fuel what I see is a surging demand for skilled coders.
So stop twisting IBM's words. It's absolutely true - there are plenty of talented students coming out of American schools - but not enough. Just because there aren't enough MIT grads to go around doesn't mean IBM needs to start hiring community college code monkeys.
Parent
lies and more lies (Score:4, Interesting)
That's a big stinking lie because H-1b visas have been portable for several years now; H-1b employees can simply change jobs.
take them in and give them Green Cards or
That's a nice theory, except that immigration foes have already made that impossible; the green card process has become so lengthy and involved that the way to get an employment based green card is to come in on an H-1b, immediately apply for a green card, and hope everything works out in time.
Parent
One overlooked benefit ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Anything that reduces the number of lawyers is good, right? Except, of course, since this means that fewer will go into law, existing lawyers will have less competition, so more opportunity to a$$rape their clients. So this is bad, right?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:One overlooked benefit ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Lowering wages? Well... The golden billion [wikipedia.org] of human population finally starts to feel the globalization effects.
Parent
Re:One overlooked benefit ... (Score:4, Insightful)
The big trend has been to come to the U.S., get an education, save up some money, go home and buy some land and live well.
Parent
forget the fluff, focus on the true issue (Score:5, Insightful)
if anyone would like to explain how using emergency powers in a non-emergency setting isn't abuse, please, step up to the plate.
What is this "state of emergency" anyway? (Score:3, Interesting)
Which brings up the broader issue, how do we define "state of emergency", and how do we put saner limits on who gets to say?
Cheers,
YR Online section? (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is even worse (Score:4, Interesting)
How do these companies get away with it? This is how it works. You are:
1. Married to an H1B holder and can legally work. The bodyshopper gets you an H1B visa and tells the INS that *you* are employed by this consultant but you do not get any pay till the consultant gets a contract from some company and you start earning money. Yes, this is illegal but 99% of the consulting companies in the US do this. The employee bears it since this is the only way to get valid status.
2. Are outside the US and want to come in to work but do not have a job. However there is this Indian consulting firm and read the rest of point 1 above
3. In the US but have been laid off and you cannot have a job without a visa and vice-versa. Read rest of point 1 above
4. Are a student about to graduate with an OPT which is worthless (1 year duration) since the consulting companies with their "fake jobs" have gobbled up all the visas.
OPT with it's 1 year duration used to mean something but with these blood-sucking consulting companies in the US, the students either hope to get a job in a good company out of school and pray the company processes H1 after the OPT duration is up. Prolonging the OPT is a fix for the students who come to the US and rough it out unlike the body-shopper import employees.
Although I said Indian consulting companies, the evil trend isn't restricted to Indian companies. Volt Computer Services (largest supplier of contractors to Microsoft, most companies in Bellevue/Seattle, etc etc) does this. I myself was a victim of Volt hiring me during my OPT period, using me for the duration of my OPT (MS paid Volt 60$ per hour and Volt paid me 20$ per hour) and then when my OPT was up, they said "Adios amigo". They contacted INS and said I was no longer their employee, gave me a ticket voucher for 1000$ and said buhbye. I had to find an Indian consultant willing to take me in so he could suck more blood from me.
It's all a fucking dirty business. I have to post this anonymously since uhhh one of employers still gets contractors from Volt. I however got into my current company through another consulting company which will remain unnamed; however Volt made sure they became the near exclusive supplier of contractors.
idiocy (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, if the H-1b foes persist in this, it also completely screws people who have lived in the US for many years. But they aren't Americans, so who cares, right?
Myths and Realities About the USA H1-B Program (Score:4, Insightful)
Myth: H1-Bs are the "best and brightest"
Reality: If that were true then the typical H1-B would a Nobel prize winning scientist. The truth is, the typical H1-B is an average student, hired right out of college with only a four year degree. The typical H1-B is no more qualified than the US graduates who are not getting jobs. The H1-Bs are just cheaper. And because of the lottery nature of the H1-B process, employers do not even know who they are getting. So how do employers know that they are getting the best and brightest?
Also, isn't it funny that almost all of the "best and brightest" come from countries where people earn as little as $1 a day? If it's really about the "best and brightest" then why aren't there more European H1-Bs?
----
Myth: H1-Bs are needed because of the critical shortage of US technology workers
Reality: Serious academic studies clearly indicate that skills shortage is a myth.
> These studies done at Duke aren't alone in their assessment that there is in fact no skills shortage. They're backed up by other studies conducted by RAND Corporation, The Urban Institute and Stanford University, among others, all of which settle upon the same conclusion: There is no shortage of educated IT workers.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1081923#PaperDownload [ssrn.com]
This according to a well researched article at baselinemag.com:
http://tinyurl.com/yoy2rw [tinyurl.com]
----
Myth: H1-Bs do compete unfairly, because H1-Bs are paid the prevailing wage
Reality:
> According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) as the measurement of U.S. wages, and the H-1B LCA disclosure data to measure H-1B wages, 90% of H-1B employers' prevailing wage claims for programmers were below the median U.S. wage for that occupation and location, with 62% of them falling in the bottom 25th percentile of U.S. wages, said Miano [founder of the Programmer's Guild].
> Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology (currently on leave) and a research associate at the Economic Policy Institute, pointed to USCIS's most recent report to Congress, which shows that the medium wage in 2005 for new H-1B computing professionals was just $50,000 -- even lower than the entry-level wages that a newly graduated tech worker with a bachelor's degree and no experience would command.
http://tinyurl.com/4bvwyh [tinyurl.com]
According to the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Service's (USCIS) annual report to Congress in 2005, the aggregate data for computing professionals lend support to the argument that the practice of paying H-1Bs below-market wages is quite common.
http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp187.html [sharedprosperity.org]
H1-Bs are hired at four different skill levels, "4" being the highest. But most H1-Bs are hired for the lowest "1" level jobs - regardless of what kind of work the H1-Bs actually do.
----
Myth: In the USA enrollment in technical disciplines is declining. Proof the USA needs to hire more foreign workers
Reality: This myth is designed to confuse cause and effect. Employers are not forced to hire offshore because enrollment is down. Rather, enrollment is down because of aggressive offshoring by employers. But even with enrollments down, there are still more than enough US workers.
> Due to both outsourcing and insourcing, many young people are concluding that technology is a bad place to invest their time," said Mark Thoma, a professor of economics at the University of Oregon in Euge
Re:Land of immigrants (Score:5, Insightful)
Saying that this is a "land of immigrants", while true, is also irrelevant since no one is trying to prove that it isn't. The issue being settled is the duration of a visa. The argument is how much time is needed to realize the stated purpose of the visa. You first have to have immigrants (more like visitors, in this case) who are welcome here before there is a question of how long they may stay.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Or, it could be that they are just malicious and assume everyone is the same as they are.
Or, they are arrogant and self-righteous, so any opinion that does not agree with theirs is automatically evil.
The possibilities are almost endless
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's unnatural, unfair and counterproductive to criminalize people for just coming to your country. Why not go further and impose Soviet-like registration of citizens, penalizing them for moving from state to state or even from city to city "illegally"? It's the same way of thinking.
Re:Land of immigrants (Score:5, Interesting)
Note that there are no mention of non-poor, well-educated people
I left the US, and now work for a company in a country which gives me 5 weeks vacation each year, with pay comparable to what I would have gotten in the Bay Area. And I don't have to worry about the visa crap or whether I will get a green card.
Parent
Re:Land of immigrants (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's see, I get 5 weeks of paid vacation, free health care, free retirement insurance, free accident and handicap insurance, free and limitless unemployment insurance, secured workplace even when I'm sick for 2 months (they can't lay me off just because I'm sick), cheap housing and more money than in the US (especially with the current USD:EUR rate). Care to tell me again why I should want to work in the US?
Parent
Re:Land of immigrants (Score:5, Informative)
BTW, I did love living in the Bay Area. Love the energy of the area. Norway doesn't have a tech area like the Bay Area. Oslo is more finance than tech (but most tech jobs seem to be in the Oslo area).
The reason for the extension of the OPT is that Congress wouldn't increase the H1b quota. The problem then is that the quota is filled the first day it is available (April 1st), which is before anyone studying in the US has graduated. And you can't apply for an H1b (or your job can't if you can get one) before you have graduated.
Parent
Re:Land of immigrants (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Land of immigrants (Score:4, Insightful)
There is a downside to all that nicety however. Unemployment tends to be high. Try finding a job in southern Germany, even with the qualifications. Be prepared for a long and painful job search. I saw a friend - an engineer - search for a job for two years so that the could live in the same city as his wife. Why? Companies are reluctant to hire people because they can't fire them so easily. Try starting a company in Europe. Try getting VC. Better yet, start a company and fail at the first go. In the US, that would be shrugged off as a learning experience. In Europe, it makes you a lepper.
I'm in India right now and I see something different. I see a place where new tech parks are rising like crabgrass and replacing shacks. I see people equally as intelligent as their counterparts in Europe and the US willing to work much harder (already in school).
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullshit.
The USA outspends many countries that get far better results from their schools. The NEA has been beating that "more funding" drum for decades while they fight tooth and nail against anything that might possibly bring any accountability to our public schooling cartel.
-jcr
Re:Weak (Score:5, Informative)
It hasn't worked (well, the government's agency sets the exams, and makes them slightly easier every year, so they say it's worked. But university professors get angry because they now have to teach science undergraduates maths that used to be taught in school).
Teachers were (of course) worried that the children wouldn't pass the exams, so they concentrated their efforts on teaching how to pass the maths exam, rather than teaching maths. Only maths, English and science are examined (at 7, 11 and 14) so less time was spent on all other subjects to make time for exam preparation.
This results in children enjoying school less -- partly because of the reduced curriculum, but mostly because of the increased pressure.
The ranking of schools isn't useful anyway -- schools in poor areas do worse, schools in rich areas do better, it's extremely difficult to do anything about that. The government's solution is to close two nearby bad schools, build a new "superschool", and then say "there were N bad schools, now there are only N/2!"
Wales decided they didn't like all the testing, so they got rid of the tests (the 7, 11 and I think the 14). The Welsh government person in charge of education says it's brilliant, which didn't go down well with her equivalent in London. Especially as they're both in the Labour party -- the London (i.e. setting policy for England) minister strongly supports the testing.
Overall, keeping politics out of education seems the best idea. Some independent schools are starting to offer the IB instead of A-levels.
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Interesting)
It's always amazing to me how a demonstrably bad idea gets mimicked over and over again.
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem is that people think that all people are equal. It just isn't true. Some people are just dumb and/or lazy. They can't learn anything. Keeping them in school is the worst possible thing you can do. They are enraged at how they repeatedly fail, so they just disrupt the school. The best option is just to chuck them out as soon as possible
And there is nothing wrong with standardized tests. "teaching to the test" is a pretty silly cliche. These standardized tests have questions about BASIC math and BASIC reading. If a school isn't teaching this, then what in the hell ARE they teaching? If a school can't get their students to pass these simple tests then 1) the students are idiots 2) the teachers are idiots 3) both of the above
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
Equality means 'all men (and in these modern times women too) are born equal under the law' - ie that the same law applies t oeverybody, no matter whether you are rich or poor, clever or stupid. Nobody in their right mind has ever imagined that all people are exactly equal when it comes to talent, intelligence etc.
The problem with standardised tests isn't the idea of testing students' skills, but the sad fact that once you have the tests, that is all you strive for. If there were no tests, the schools would ideally strive to simply provide the best they can, whereas when you have the tests, you strive to score as much as possible. It's like intelligence testing - if you are tested unprepared, the test may show something about how intelligent you are, but if you are allowed to study the test and prepare for it, you can suddenly demonstrate an huge intelligence, except of course that the result is now worthless.
I am all for testing and making the quality of schools comparable, so the parents have a better chance of choosing the right school for their children, but the standardised tests are simply bogus - a bad attempt at solving some problems, or even a tool for deceiving the parents and the public.
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:4, Interesting)
It goes deeper then that though it's north american insitutional and business culture that is the problem. See here:
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG3HPX0D2mU [youtube.com]
Listen to the comments of "calficication" of kids in the school system and adults in the workplace. It makes a lot of good points about self management and responsibility.
The idea that the average person thinks everyone is equal is a farce, equal BEFORE THE LAW maybe but no one in their right mind thinks they're equal in ability, looks, etc.
"Some people are just dumb and/or lazy. They can't learn anything. Keeping them in school is the worst possible thing you can do"
I agree that some people are dumb, but I don't agree that some people are just "lazy", they are disengaged because most of the time we don't allow their curiousity to blossom by killing it early through 'school'.
The other problem is that we don't have a place for certain kinds of people in the job market that will pay decent wages. That is the REAL problem, technological displacement.
Modern schools are often harmful and disengaging enviornments, for many it's positively toxic to someones development. No amount of accountability will deal with forced schedules and irrelevant curriculum, the lack of alignment of student curiousity and interest with what they want to learn vs the boring pablum clueless teachers, businesses and government elites, pushing their pablum as 'education'. Many slashdotters can no doubt attest to the low quality of the curriculum and their teachers and school simply not being relevant to what they are interested in, so they 'carve their own path'.
I think something is to be said by not killing childrens motivation and curiousity, which we do very young.
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
The only structural problem with schools are the bloated administrations (which are not unionized.) But that doesn't even begin to explain why the schools are failing. The real problem is our culture. Parents treat the schools as (at best) a baby-sitting service. Too many of them simply don't care how well their children do academically. Failure and success begins with the parents.
Private schools generally pay their teachers *less*, so the teachers in them are no more talented. To the extent that private schools do better, it's because they cherry-pick the best students. You will fail if you simply try to privatize the schools on a large scale. That would just be shifting all the current problems into the private sector where it will be compounded by profit motives and shady accounting (seen the prison system lately?)
I get so sick of hearing that libertarian BS from people that don't even know the first thing about the real problem.
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
The key is to restore competition to schooling at the elementary and high school level. We have world-class colleges, including the public ones, because colleges have to compete for customers.
-jcr
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they can pick and choose their students.
If you don't have to bother with problematic students, of course you're going to get better results at a lower cost.
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
The normal kids that coexist peacefully need their own school.
The brilliant kids need their own schools because they are
our best hope of fixing most of the gigantic messes we have made.
The hell raising violent drug dealing bastards need a boot camp
type school that can get them to pull their collective
heads out of their asses.
The Three strikes rule would work well here.
3 strikes you go to the hell raisers school, 3 strikes in their
and you are out.
3 strikes on crime on the outside they are sent to labor camps
or can volunteer for EXILE and leave this country FOREVER.
I am tired of paying for ppl to sit in jail and watch cable TV
and eat food and not work and I get to pay for it all.
If they go to jail at a minimum they work a farm to feed all
the prisoners.
If they don't want that they can leave the US for all time.
Society is about working together, not anarchy.
If they want to be a jack ass that is fine, but not here.
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:4, Insightful)
So total segregation is the answer, huh? I'd love to see the fucked up world that would produce. Kids need to socialize with different kinds of people, not get isolated in places where everybody is the same. This would just lead to societal civil war or class warfare.
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:4, Insightful)
( I.E. more leisure time, more likely to have one parent not working )
And related to that, parents that understand how much their educated led to their wealth, providing additional motivation to push/pull the kids in education?
Smaller class sizes in private schools?
More ability to apply technical assistance to leverage the instructors/instruction?
And if we go with all private schools, I cant help but think that the already large gap between the wealthy and the not wealthy will grow larger, I would argue to the detriment of both groups ( if the "have-nots" have less, where is the market that the "haves" will sell to? )
Parent
Re:Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no mystery there.
Those four reasons lead to a less toxic environment in the classroom, which leads to better motivated teachers (even with the pay cut most private school teachers take), better motivated students, and: far better results.
Parent
We already spend more than enough on education (Score:5, Interesting)
I would prefer more options for parents to send their children to schools of their choice. This means the dreaded "voucher". Make it so the money follows the child and not the school. This might be the only kick in the pants some school systems will understand. We have great teachers. We spend more than enough to educate the children we have, we just spend it wrong.
The easy solution is to "throw money at the problem" but that is used as an excuse to rid ourselves of the responsibility for making the hard choices. All we get with this thrown money is more cronies. I read my local "paper" to see schools with trailers and look at the changes that go on the system. What do I notice most after capital improvements? How many more people in non teaching positions crop up. Suddenly there are committees paid out of school funds to do work already done elsewhere or not needed. More money means more government employees, not necessarily teachers.
Sorry, no more money. Account for what they have. They owe to the children. We owe it the children.
Education here is not the reason we have H1 visas. We have those because politicians put more value on the money of corporations than the people who elect them. Do any of the three current candidates support scrapping this?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
In california where I work for a school district I am seeing this problem. Thanks to No child left behind we are seeing funding cuts as well and 1 out of 4 students are illegal or there parents are illegal in my district and no its not inner city either.
In rural areas they do not suffer from this problem so a single student who scores only 15% at grad
Re:Weak (Score:5, Informative)
If money were the answer, our public school system here would be turning out einsteins.
Parent
It's not money. It's distribution that fails. (Score:3, Interesting)
Instead of encouraging the gifted, the money is pumped into classes for those that are either unwilling or unable to learn. It sounds hard, but some people are just plain dumb. So be it. That money goes poof because you can't make a horse drink, no matter how much water you drown it in.
Second, schools dumb down tests to meet the requirements to get more money. Now, how does that improve learning? Sure, all your students get straight As, wonderful, but that
Implying (class|race) (warfare|exploitation)? (Score:3, Interesting)
Let me guess:
I want your money, and I want your goods, but you can keep your sorry non-white ass out of my country.
Is this roughly what you're hinting at?
It might appear that I'm trolling, but I'm very much not -- I'm honestly interested if this is what 0xdeadbeef means.
Cheers,
Re:Don't worry, it's just jobs Americans don't wan (Score:5, Informative)
It may have something to do with hundreds of millions per annum being lost because all those now 'suspect' chinese students that used to go to university in the states have started to go to Europe instead.
Its been great for England, my gosh yes, the extra revenue was seriously needed, but not so great for the US. Last I heard some US Universities were having serious problems trying to make up for the loss of that money.
Oddly enough European society has completely failed to collapse, and we haven't found ourselves dealing with hordes of evil Chinese people plotting to take over our countries.
Personally it helped me learn how to make some really good Chinese meals.
Parent
Re:DHS = Get Out of Jail Free card (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:DHS = Get Out of Jail Free card (Score:4, Informative)
Prior to 2003 these authorities were held by the DoJ but they shifted to DHS.
Who is inside the country is a data point that DHS is decidedly interested in. This is a reality I work with every single day as I develop software that tracks the whereabouts of visa holders.
Parent
Re:H1b scam. (Score:4, Informative)
There are 65,000 H-1B's available for the year (20,000 of them reserved for "advanced degree" holders), and there were over 163,000 applications within the first five days of the filing period. This year, all H-1Bs, even the 20,000 in the advanced degree block, are being assigned by lottery.
There is no other way to get one.
Parent