Nathan Myhrvold and the Business Of Invention

elwinc writes "There's a great New Yorker story about Nathan Myhrvold's Intellectual Ventures company, whose business model is to nurture ideas, write patents, and sell them. Apparently they're filing about 500 patents a year including a passive thorium reactor which consumes waste from conventional reactors. On the lighter side, you can read how Nathan has achieved 'dominant T. rex market share.'" Though we've discussed Myhrvold and his company in the past, the New Yorker focuses more on how incredible it is to have a group of very intelligent people sitting around a table developing ideas.

Ideas

[QuantumG (50515)]

First of all, the article goes on and on about brainstorming... which is universally known to be a really bad way to come up with ideas. If you have an idea and you want to flesh out what it is good for or, better yet, what it is not good for, then brainstorming is great way to do it, but inspiration does not come from brainstorming - it comes in the shower or when you're walking the dog or whatever.

Then there's this whole "ideas have value" thing. Their whole business model is based on that tenant. Which is why they're not actually selling these patents to anyone, no-one goes out looking for a great idea to pour money into and create a business from.. investors go looking for *people* who have both a great idea and the technical skills to turn it into a workable business.. you can't just pick up someone else's idea and run with it, no matter how well the patent is written, and there's never written well. So how are they making their money? By litigation. So they're not actually helping progress, they're hindering it.

All in all, its a dot com era idea for a business.. "let's get smart people together and invent stuff" and leave all the pesky marketing and sales to someone else.. but that's what business *is*, so you're basically saying you want to be in the business of not being in business.

Re:Ideas

[explosivejared (1186049)]

Implementations have value. For example, I could probably sit down and write a decent enough patent for a perpetual motion machine to where the patent office would accept it. Now obviously no such machine could be implemented. So here in lies the problem with this company's approach and the general approach of any patent troll, it is easy to come with ideas when you sit there and detach your thinking from the scientific method. Such imaginations make for great novelists and storytellers, but they make for very poor engineers and businessmen. Anyone can look at a problem and identify a solution that would work. The real skill comes in finding a solution that works in reality and then being able to back up your findings by properly and effectively implementing your solution.

All in all, I agree with the parent, this company is a leech. It sucks value out of the economy while adding none in return.

Not so sure about storytellers

[jd (1658)]

Some of the finest storytellers of our time - Alan Garner, Isaac Asimov, JRR Tolkien, for example - applied logic and rational thinking to their novels. Carl Sagan's "Contact", based around very sound scientific principles, was highly respectable. 2001 was more "scientific" and realistic than 2010 - name the book (or movie) with the better reputation. Indeed, many famous artists were also scientists, and many famous scientists were also artists.

Clearly, there is a branch of storytelling and artistic creativity which is highly in tune with the scientific method and Socratic thought. Not all, sure, or even necessarily a whole lot, but the two are not exclusive. On the other hand, you are correct in saying that no quality science is conducted in a purely creative sense. "Thought experiments" come the closest, being a form of daydreaming and roleplaying, but they are still more entrenched in rational thought than emotional whim.

intellectual honey pots

[Quadraginta (902985)]

I dunno...patenting an idea which is impossible to implement, such as a perpetual motion machine, or which (more realistically) is wildly unprofitable to implement, isn't any real bar to progress. No one's ever going to implement those ideas, right? So that kind of "business" seems like just a honey pot for impractical dreamers.

If they required a working prototype, I'd agree.

[khasim (1285)]

But since the patent office will now take "patents" on "a system for ..." that pretty much means that anyone can patent anything and then wait for someone to actually invent the device.

I can patent a perpetual motion machine ... and then claim that a new battery system infringes upon my useless patent. As long as I'm willing to "license" my patent for less than an actual court case would cost, I'll make money.

And I'll hinder REAL innovation and progress.

That's the goal with that company. They aren't improving anything. They're abusing the patent system (with the patent system's willing support) to drain profits from real inventors.

Re:

[Quadraginta (902985)]

Apparently you're under the impression that the Patent Office is run by morons.

Fair enough, you're entitled to whatever POV you like. But there's no way to argue logically with you, since your assumptions are so fantastically different from mine.

FWIW, I assume the PTO is run by pretty clever people who do the best they can, given the general difficulty with predicting the future, and who have a pretty decent -- albeit not perfect -- track record over the past 200 years, and who would normally see right thr

Patent Office is not run by morons but

[anandsr (148302)]

The whole concept of patents is so 1900ish. There was a time when people could create something and then keep it under wraps, and nobody could discover what they were doing under the hood. Mostly because mostly people with the knowledge were not near the devices.

This allowed a lot of ideas to get lost. Patents were specifically designed to prevent this act. But now in 2000 and the internet this idea is totally useless. There will be always people who can reverse engineer to find out how the thing works. So that particular reason for Patents is patently lost.

Now there is another use of patents to allow people to invest into projects that have a very high risk value. Pharmaceutical companies do have these kinds of projects. I would think there is some use of patents for these sort of companies.

But for the rest of the market Patents are an abomination. They should be abolished. Software industry definitely does not need patents. They already can use copyrights, to control their creations.

One thing that the patent office should do is to require a working prototype. No prototype no patent. And the complete plan should be made open.

Re:intellectual honey pots

[Lonewolf666 (259450)]

The problem is with ideas that are are easy to think up but hard to implement. Say, the passive thorium reactor mentioned in TFA. The idea of a thorium-based breeder reactor is not new, and the abstract on ScienceDirect reads more like marketing than like science. As in "lots of promises but little about HOW it is done".

If the rest of the "science" article has the quality of the abstract, that particular patent application is a classic example of patents that should be denied for lack of useful contribution.

To prevent this, I think patents should only be granted when an implementation is also described, with the possibility of overturning the patent if the implementation does not actually work.

Re:

[rishubhav (1192083)]

What the parent seems to be missing is that as the article points out inspiration often comes from something outside your normal field of study and expertise - a different view of things. That's what this provides by bringing together people who are not just smart, but people who come from a variety of disciplines

They are throwing shit at a wall

[Pinky's Brain (1158667)]

With 500 pieces of shit some of it will stick in the end ... and unfortunately that's all patent trolls need to turn a profit.

Re:

[jpellino (202698)]

tenant?

Re:Ideas

[kesuki (321456)]

"So how are they making their money? By litigation. So they're not actually helping progress, they're hindering it."

evidence to this light is found here: http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/348 [cosmosmagazine.com]

a company by the name of thorium power, is designing a real thorium based fuel that would run in a conventional Russian atomic reactor, and along comes this patent troll company trying to eat up the US thorium reactor patents... which will mean Russia and China may be using thorium reactors while America finds itself unable to because 'the patent troll drove the cost too high'

Re:Ideas

[by Anonymous Coward]

Yup. Interestingly, that's exactly what happened with the Wright brothers.

We think that they invented the world's first aircraft (untrue, but let's not go into that now). They thought their big advance was solving the problem of aircraft control (which they had, but in a cumbersome and essentially dead-end way, with wing warping).

Did they advertise this for the benefit of humanity, like Santos-Dumont did? No, they patented it and tried to force all aircraft designers to pay them money. Of course, this only worked in the US, so before long France, Britain, Russia and Germany were designing all kinds of aircraft, while development in the US had ceased.

When WW1 came we had to buy fighters from the French - we had no industry of our own.

I sometimes laugh at the plaudits offered to the Wrights, when the only thing they really did was SUPRESS American development of aircraft for 15 years.....

Re:Ideas

[FreeUser (11483)]

a company by the name of thorium power, is designing a real thorium based fuel that would run in a conventional Russian atomic reactor, and along comes this patent troll company trying to eat up the US thorium reactor patents... which will mean Russia and China may be using thorium reactors while America finds itself unable to because 'the patent troll drove the cost too high'

It serves America right. Currently we believe we can grant ourselves a monopoly on most ideas, business models, and software, and then use our economic, diplomatic, and military muscle to force the rest of the world to eventually adopt laws enshrining such patents into their legal systems, and thereby hard code a medium-term economic dominance over everyone else.

What we didn't count on was George W. Bush draining our economy, diluting our military strength, and devistating our diplomatic influence using our nation to prosecute a pernsonal and family vendetta against the Hussein family.

As a result, we are no longer in a position to dictate our agenda to the rest of the world (this is in most ways a good thing for everybody, including the US, even if we don't know it), and lo and behold! The rest of the world has chosen not to enact business method and software patents, and isn't too keen on granting patents for vague ideas the so-called "inventors" have no intention of actually building. So if that means the rest of the world ends up with cheap, clean power, and the US economy flounders or even impldoes, well, our own greed and lust for dominance brought it upon ourselves, and we deserve it.

And maybe, just maybe, our falling behind every other developed nation in just about every field will be the catalyst we need for real patent and copyright reform. I'm not betting on it--we seem to have developed a talent for burying our heads in the sand--but there is an outside hope such change might eventually happen, someday.

Ideas have value, but ...

[by Anonymous Coward]

Are they patent trolls? Maybe. But ideas do have value, as long as patents have value. Litigation can only happen if patents are being violated, and that is why IP management is so important.

Ideas have value, but what they don't have is natural ownership. By unnaturally imposing ownership on them through patents, the value they have for the community of producers is reduced, while the value they have for legal leeches who produce nothing is increased. And that's a disastrous tradeoff for community.

patent troll

[biot (12537)]

Developing ideas? Give me a break, they buy patents and sell licenses. It's your basic patent troll outfit.

Re:patent troll

[Frosty Piss (770223)]

Developing ideas? Give me a break, they buy patents and sell licenses. It's your basic patent troll outfit.

But they're really smart people and they are brainstorming and they are nurturing ideas and they are from Bellevue Washington where all the real Microsofties live, so they must be innovating...

Re:

[liquidpele (663430)]

10% is inspiration, 90% is perspiration.
Just because they think it up shouldn't mean they get a monopoly on the idea, it's only hindering companies that are actually doing all the work imho.

Slave masters

[dotancohen (1015143)]

Though we've discussed Myhrvold and his company in the past, the New Yorker focuses more on how incredible it is to have a group of very intelligent people sitting around a table developing ideas.

Developing ideas? No, they are not developing ideas. To develop an idea one must nurture it into a product or service that helps humanity. What these people are doing is enslaving ideas. They are taking what could possibly benefit you and I, and encumbering them in chains.

Misuse of the system

[Chmcginn (201645)]

Society is encumbering the ideas. Their paper isn't magic, it gets its meaning from the legal system.

This is true, but the system in place is one that a lot of people feel is necessary to some extent. For the basement developer who comes up with an idea and makes a prototype working weekends in his home workshop, getting a patent for something useful is the end result of years of hard work. But getting a patent for 4 hours of sitting around brainstorming, and coming up with an idea that may not even be

That's what we need...

[narfman0 (979017)]

An idea pimp!

Re:That's what we need...

[explosivejared (1186049)]

Personally, I think you give these guys too much credit. Pimps are the epitome of coolness. Fancy, flamboyant suits, canes, and ostentatious jewelry are great. Plus, pimps are cultural hearths. The language of my generation was pretty much developed entirely by pimps and their siblings, "playas". These guys the article is talking about are more like the white cracker, slavemasters of ideas. In short, they are totally not cool.

Re:

[mcmonkey (96054)]

Pimps are the epitome of coolness.

I was like you once. Young, idealistic.

Now, how do I get these dead fish out of my shoes?

"passive thorium reactor"

[arthurpaliden (939626)]

I always thought that a working model was required in order to patent a 'thing'. How can they possibly know that it will work or what other patents are required in order to impliment said patent if all they did was to sit around a table and discuss ideas found in other papers?

Re: "passive thorium reactor"

[QuantumG (50515)]

huh? Where have you been for the last 100 years dude? Yes, this is a good example of why the patent system is broken.. but its been that way for quite a while now.

Re:

[Kjella (173770)]

Uh, the basic idea with the patent system was that you'd get a patent so investors with money couldn't just take your idea and run with it themselves.

No patents:
1. Come up with good idea
2. Talk to investors about idea
3. Investors run with it themselves
4. No profit

Patents:
1. Come up with good idea
2. Patent idea
3. Talk to investors about idea
4. Make the product with investors
5. Profit

Least, that was the idea with the big engineering patents at least. With the "soft" patents that are basicly done the moment yo

Re:

[badboy_tw2002 (524611)]

If they did ABCXYZ that's ok - they can do that and in fact write a new patent for it. The problem is that these companies are getting the equivalent of the 1. X 2. ??? 3 PROFIT! patents where they figure out A..Z, someone comes in with BCXY and they get the shit sued out of them. The problem lies with the patent office granting bad patents and courts upholding them. And of course, that doesn't even get into business method/software patents where this stuff really comes into play.

Re:

[QuantumG (50515)]

Yawn, that's what non-disclosure agreements are for.

The purpose of a patent is so that you can keep your competitors from adopting your newest innovation, thus giving you an advantage in the market place for a limited time in return for disclosing how your invention works.

Originally patents were a means for attracting skilled immigrants to come set up shop.

Re:

[kesuki (321456)]

"How can they possibly know that it will work or what other patents are required in order to impliment said patent if all they did was to sit around a table and discuss ideas found in other papers?"

Well if another company named 'thorium power' had been developing a way to make thorium/uranium/plutonium rods... the plutonium to activate the thorium the thorium to create energy and activate the uranium, which creates energy and keeps the thorium going..

and they didn't patent every single idea that was possibl

Perspiration

[bill_mcgonigle (4333)]

That's the problem with these types - they do the 2% inspiration, but skip the 98% perspiration. If somebody else does the 98%, they sue.

So much for "promoting science and the useful arts..." - ergo, IMHO, unconstitutional.

Right, and here's how to fix it...

[msouth (10321)]

Here's a standard that would help fix the kind of behavior which, as you point out, does the opposite of the founding fathers' intention with patents.

When you show up with your idea that you think deserves protection, the patent examiner's first duty is to look at what evidence you provide that this idea has been economically feasible for 20 years, and no one has done it yet.

If it has been feasible for 20 years, then there is a market that could support it, and there are big players in that market, and the

Re:

[darthflo (1095225)]

Your patent troll's 500th patent of the year costs $6.54678121579228e+152 to file. Even Bill Gates is starting to think that's real money.

I like that general idea, but it just wouldn't work:
- Patent trolls like Intellectual Ventures could simply start tons of shell companies. If the cost of creating one of these was, say, $1k, they'd get themselves some 167 "independent subdivisions", getting the price down to $800 per patent.
- Some giant companies may actually come up with lots and lots of ideas. The l

I thought you couldn't patent an idea...

[SuperBanana (662181)]

..only an implementation?

Patentable Subject Matter. Assuming the criteria described in the next section are also satisfied, any new and useful process, machine, manufac- ture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement of these things, can be patented. These cate- gories are quite broad, but the courts have identified certain types of subject matter that cannot be patented, including laws of nature, physical phenomena, and abstract ideas.

(from Can You Patent That?" [ftc.gov])

It's a semantic game ...

[Pinky's Brain (1158667)]

Played by patent proponents, it's a useless distinction which holds no information. Empty words and misdirection.

I have seen it before

[Alex Belits (437)]

MICHAEL (CONT'D)
This month is going to be bigger. It's
actually going to be the biggest month
we've ever had. We've got a new issue
I want to talk to you about. It's
called Med Patent. They've just
designed the world's first retractable
syringe. This means that doctors and
nurses will never again have to worry
about infection from dirty needles.
This is not going to be an alternative
in the medical world, it's going to be
the standard. We all know we're here
to make money, but if we can do
something good like this, then all the
better. So I want you all to go out
and buy yourselves a new car, or a
house. Whatever you want. Go into
debt. You will make a million inside
of six months.

-- from Boiler Room movie script.

Perpetual Monopoly Machine

[Doc Ruby (173196)]

What Myhrvold demonstates is that helping run a monopoly is a great way to make enough money to hire people to create patent monopolies to make more money to make more patent monopolies.

Great idea, but Myhrvold didn't invent it. Luckily, he can't patent it, either.

New Yorker is a pathetic tribal mouthpiece

[mapkinase (958129)]

New Yorker is a pathetic tribal mouthpiece that would celebrate anybody with the name Nathan.

What a great idea...

[oodaloop (1229816)]

"the New Yorker focuses more on how incredible it is to have a group of very intelligent people sitting around a table developing ideas."

Hey, maybe the place where they THINK could be called a TANK. I can't believe no one's thought of this before!

I'm not impressed by "inventors"

[MikeRT (947531)]

I saw a post on the blog Technology Liberation Front that pointed out that most of their ideas don't pan out. They just don't even work. You know what many of those "inventors" sound like?

The same sort of person who would fit in well with "social scientists." It's great that you are smart and have ideas, but I could give a shit less about your "ideas" if you cannot make a functioning prototype of them.

Our society should have precious little tolerance for people who only come up with ideas on paper, without being able to put them into practice.

Elisha Gray and the telephone

[by Anonymous Coward]

English majors who write on scientific matters for laymen seem to delight in such unexpected phenomena as near-simultaneous discovery and invention by geniuses working independently.

At least one researcher has come up with a more prosaic explanation [amazon.com] for the coincidental telephone patent filings - he believes that Bell bribed a patent office employee to show him Gray's filing, after which Bell returned to his lab, completely revised his approach, and soon re-filed with a description of his triumphant "inven

Good not evil?

[Frosty Piss (770223)]

Though we've discussed Myhrvold and his company in the past, the New Yorker focuses more on how incredible it is to have a group of very intelligent people sitting around a table developing ideas.

Filing about 500 patents a year...

Oh, I see, these are good patents not evil patents. Yes...

I hate these patent farms

[Awptimus Prime (695459)]

While this shit may sound good for some of you, I recently began doing research on a project to build water transportation using alternative energy.

Well guess what? One guy ownes ALL rights to the most common sense approaches, yet refuses to bring his product to market. Prior to my investigation, all my 'original' ideas have already been thought of , registered, and accepted. The only way I could move forward would be to pay someone who didn't do anything to help my work some money for every sale. That is, if he'd even respond to inquiries.

It gave me an edge for the future. If the system is going to be bound by such things, I am going to register every stupid thing I come across that hasn't been registered yet. If I can't invent without being stifled, why should anyone else?

Re:I hate these patent farms

[timmarhy (659436)]

this is the problem i have with the patent system as well. it doesn't reward people for being productive. drastic change needs to happen

Phooey

[jo42 (227475)]

how incredible it is to have a group of very intelligent people sitting around a table developing ideas

Anyone can sit around a table "developing ideas" - the hard part is making them into reality.

They are parasites

[HEbGb (6544)]

I was going to jump in and describe this company as being a bunch of parasitic patent trolls, who create zero value for the world, but instead suck value from people doing REAL work.

But it looks like plenty of people have already made that point. Excellent!

These people should not be glamorized, they should be roundly criticized for being lowlife parasites.

THAT Nathan Myhrvold...

[by Anonymous Coward]

And don't forget, this is the Nathan Myhrvold who asserted (while working for Microsoft) that Microsoft deserved a cut of every transaction made over the internet.

Reminds me of something I wrote a few years ago

[argoff (142580)]

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=168820&cid=14072468 [slashdot.org]

Bottom line, patents are anti free-market, they are not property, they are not incentive, they are not protection. Rather brought to their logical conclusion they are genocidal.

decadent science

[Goldsmith (561202)]

There definitely is value in getting different kinds of scientific people together to talk about specific problems. I've been to some conferences like that, and it's great. ... but I won't patent the hoped for results of the experiments I'd like to do over the next ten years. Most of us in science can't get away with that kind of stuff, we can't afford it financially and we value the respect of our peers too much. Most of us can't afford to put a T. Rex skeleton in our living rooms, or have lawyers around to record our dinner conversations either.

You're an optimist ...

[Pinky's Brain (1158667)]

The chance of people being assholes is wholly uncorrelated with their intelligence. As far as risk/reward/effort goes patent trolling is a better deal than being an engineer in a start up.

Re:Well maybe next time you'll think twice...

[YttriumOxide (837412)]

Please don't use the word "Muslims" like that... it's tarring all people of one belief with the same brush.

It's probably equally as accurate to say that most Christians who die violently do so at the hands of other Christians. (although I have no cite for this, just as you have no cite for your Troll)

(disclaimer: I'm not a Muslim or a Christian - in fact, I'm a staunch atheist that thinks both the Muslim and Christian faiths are COMPLETELY ridiculous. I just don't like it when people fuel hatred in this manner)