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Using Tire Pressure Sensors To Spy On Cars

Posted by kdawson on Tue Apr 01, 2008 04:21 PM
from the privacy-under-pressure dept.
Privacy Transportation
AngryDad writes "Beginning last September, all vehicles sold in the US have been required to have Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) installed. An article up at HexView enumerates privacy issues introduced by TPMS, and some of them look pretty scary. Did you know that traffic sensors on highways can be adopted to read TPMS data and track individual vehicles? How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby? TPMS has been discussed in the past, but I haven't seen its privacy implications analyzed before. Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."
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Submission: Tire pressure sensors can be used to spy on cars by AngryDad (947591)
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  • Finally, an April Fools story!!! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jollyreaper (513215) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:23PM (#22934902)
    This is a joke, I hope. *crosses fingers*

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by cayenne8 (626475)
      "Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."

      How about another easy fix. Just disable the fscking thing.....

      • "Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."

        Yeah, encryption would stop the little hacker down the street and keep them from setting up a road side explosive set just for you, but it wouldn't stop the government -- who would mandate a backdoor -- from doing it.

        And personally, I'm not really worried about the hacker down the street...if cars start blowing up I would bet money it would be government doing it...and not a foreign government, but our governme

        • Re: Finally, an April Fools story!!! (Score:5, Funny)

          by c6gunner (950153) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @06:57PM (#22936478)

          Personally, I've never really been scared by any of the things our government keeps telling me I should be terrorized by, but what really scares me is the bleak future I see for my kids and their kids...caused by our own Orwellian, all-powerful government.
          Yeah, I soooooo hear ya on that one! You know what else scares me? Clowns. The government keeps saying that there's nothing to fear from clowns, but I know The Truth! Those colourful costumes and goofy makeup are the perfect disguises for Secret Service death squads, prowling our neighbourhoods and looking to assassinate or brainwash anyone they see purchasing organic tomatoes. It's downright terrifying!

          I'm glad to see that there's other right-minded folk like me on here! Keep up the good work Mr. Transporter!

  • Headline: Tire PMS kills! Story at 11! (Score:3, Funny)

    by kiick (102190) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:24PM (#22934906)
    Sorry, Couldn't resist.

    This isn't an 4/1 joke, is it?

  • Part of me feels paranoid now... (Score:5, Funny)

    by AioKits (1235070) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:27PM (#22934942) Homepage
    Especially this part:
    How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby?
    Great, first I have to worry about the tolls on I-44 through Oklahoma, now I got to worry about exploding vehicles?
    Maybe in the future we can all roll to work in giant hamster balls. Getting groceries home will be a bitch tho...

  • RFID tracking (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nguy (1207026) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:27PM (#22934944)
    Tires already come with RFID tags, which can also be read and tracked remotely. Cars probably also emit all sorts of other unique signals that can be recognized and tracked.

    Of course, cars also come with this thing called a "license plate", which can also be tracked remotely and wirelessly.

    Basically, if you drive, you can be tracked.
    • In the War on Terrorism, the president in his finite capacity for wisdom has authorized any government agency, with at least 3 letters in its acronym, to engage in acts of tire tapping without the need for endless judicial oversite.

      The government won't use this information to track you down to that seedy little motel on the side of route 9, where you cavort with no less than 3 women other than your wife. We only care about catching bad guys. Your wife however...

      If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear but fear itself.

    • Of course, cars also come with this thing called a "license plate", which can also be tracked remotely and wirelessly.

      I don't know about "wirelessly" unless you are talking about people using their eyeballs. Eyesight detection isn't at all efficient and certainly not automated. However, there are non-wireless camera systems that can be used to more automatedly detect license plate numbers. Although, from my understanding, that hasn't really been perfected yet. Using RFID combined with detectors at ever

      • Re:RFID tracking (Score:5, Informative)

        by nguy (1207026) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:47PM (#22935200)
        Using RFID combined with detectors at every street corner will allow for constant surveillance of every car all the time.

        So do license plate readers, and they can operate from greater distances and completely passively. Cost for a license plate reader is about the same as a good RFID reader, and they are probably at least as reliable. Furthermore, you are required to keep your license plate readable.

        Some cities are already starting to implement complete license plate-based tracking of vehicles.

      • Re:RFID tracking (Score:4, Informative)

        by timeOday (582209) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @05:06PM (#22935378)
        You better tell these guys [platepass.com] because their business is OCR'ing license plates. It's not research. I rent cars from Avis in Orlando fairly regularly and they have this option right now.

      • Re:RFID tracking (Score:5, Informative)

        by afaik_ianal (918433) * on Tuesday April 01 2008, @05:18PM (#22935530) Journal

        Of course, cars also come with this thing called a "license plate", which can also be tracked remotely and wirelessly.

        I don't know about "wirelessly" unless you are talking about people using their eyeballs.
        On Australian highways (In my state of New South Wales, at least), we have special cameras located on overpasses and things every couple of hundred kilometres or so. These most definitely detect where the number plates are in the image, cut them out, perform OCR, then record the ones that are on trucks. It's used to enforce the laws preventing truckers from driving too far without sleep, and constant speeding.

        These cameras have been around for over 10 years, and I assure you, are highly accurate.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Detritus (11846)
            Catching someone moving between point a and point b in 5.5 minutes, where point a and point b are 10km apart, equating to an average speed of ~110kph is much smarter - there is no doubt that the car in question was traveling over the speed limit for a sustained period of time.

            You are assuming that there are no discontinuities in the space-time continuum. I never leave home without my wormhole generator.

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by plague3106 (71849)
            Because if they actually ticketed everyone that broke the speed limit law, government would finally be forced to raise speed limits... especially since Australia is likely in the same spot as the US; illegally setting limits lower than dictated by civil engineers for the purpose of raising revenue and pushing more draconion measures on drivers.
    • I haven't heard about RFID in tires but even if that's the case, you can always remove or disable them. Doing the same with TPMS will, at best, result in your car constantly bitching about flat/missing tires. Or maybe even violating some new nanny-state law.

      Doing any other kind of tracking requires a lot more effort tham putting a primitive scanner under a manhole cover or something.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by everphilski (877346)
        Kinda hard to do without puncturing the tire. Read up on it: here [hanarfid.com]. Michelin at least seems to mount it inside the laminas of the tire.

        Of course you could always surround your tires in tin foil if you are THAT paranoid.

        • Re:RFID tracking (Score:5, Funny)

          by ArcherB (796902) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @05:06PM (#22935382) Journal

          Kinda hard to do without puncturing the tire. Read up on it: here. Michelin at least seems to mount it inside the laminas of the tire.

          Of course you could always surround your tires in tin foil if you are THAT paranoid.
          I hear that microwaving your tires for 15 seconds each will also disable the RFID tags.

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward
          What I am worried about is the RFID tags embedded in Reynolds Wrap.

    • Re:RFID tracking (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Introspective (71476) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:52PM (#22935252) Homepage

      Basically, if you drive, you can be tracked.
      No. Certain objects attached to the car might be able to be tracked. There is a big difference between tracking tires, license plates, etc. and tracking people. A distinction which most posters seem to have ignored in their paranoia.

      • Re:RFID tracking (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Cid Highwind (9258) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @05:13PM (#22935466) Homepage
        Mostly because it's a distinction that's sure to be ignored by law-enforcement types too. Ever recieved a photo-radar, red light or toll-evasion ticket? It doesn't matter who was driving, if your car was at the scene of the crime you're responsible for the fine.

      • Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by seanadams.com (463190) * on Tuesday April 01 2008, @10:56PM (#22937658) Homepage
        There is a big difference between tracking tires, license plates, etc. and tracking people.

        In what way is tracking a person's possessions NOT a damned effective way of tracking the person?!?!

        Do complete strangers drive your car often? So you see no need for concern until a tracking device is implanted directly into your skull?

    • Basically, if you drive, you can be tracked.
      That is why I walk everywhere.

      Without shoes.

      Or clothes.

      Except for my tinfoil hat.
      • Sure, and you will then be denied the privilege of driving on the road that has the sensor that reads your tire pressure.

        By George, I think you've got it!
      • ... and I can stuff beans up my nose if I want. But I don't.

      • I am guarnateed totally 100% anonymity anywhere I go in public! It's a guarnateed right in the USA Constitution. Don't give me any of this "I can see you" bS!!!!!!!!

        Being seen and identified by a person or agent of the government on the street is one thing - that's how its been for thousands of years.

        Having every movement of every person on the street automatically recorded, indexed and cataloged into nationwide databases without the any human intervention is a completely different matter - that's a recipe for totalitarianism.

        Right now, we are rapidly barreling down the road from how its been for thousands of years to the ultimate totalitarian state with very little g

  • ... or hoax? Only time will tell.

  • Hmmm.... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Otter (3800) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:34PM (#22935016) Journal
    How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby?

    Outside of Lebanon, I don't see this as being a huge concern. (And calling it a "privacy" issue seems a bit of an understatement.) The local governments aren't sufficiently motivated to fill potholes, let alone install IEDs specifically targeted at me.

  • Remove the sensors and ignore the warning light. It's how I do things when I've got the winter wheels on, because I didn't feel like spending $400 for another set of sensors.

  • The "solution" is not so simple. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by hedronist (233240) * on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:34PM (#22935024)
    "Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."

    Unfortunately, there is a major difference here: failure to encrypt keyless entry resulted in stolen cars (something which caught people's attention and pissed them off), whereas you'll never even notice that your TPMS isn't encrypted. People are incredibly lazy and only take action when they perceive a threat to their person or property. Liberty? As Dick Cheney would say, "So?"

    I'll bet adding encryption would cost the manufacturers $0.01 per tire (or some equally trivial amount), which they will claim will ruin them. Nobody else (except for a bunch of whiny, personal liberty freaks) will care about this and it will quietly become ubiquitous.

    Besides, if you aren't doing anything illegal, why should you care who takes note of your comings and goings. We're here to help you and we certainly can't do that unless we know where you are ... at all times ...

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by John Whitley (6067)

      People are incredibly lazy and only take action when they perceive a threat to their person or property. Liberty?

      While I understand your frustration, I think it's ultimately misleading to tag people as "lazy" here. Misleading precisely because I tend to agree with you: most folk are "lazy", but that the term is so loaded with negative connotation that it stops further inquiry. Human beings are likey terribly poorly adapted to understanding and reacting to these kinds of threats. Many modern threats are really pretty damn abstract (to an essentially hunter-gatherer mind, anyhow) and require a fair bit of abstract t

    • The solution is even easier than encryption. Just don't broadcast a unique identifier!

      In this case there's no reason for each tire pressure sensor to be broadcasting one. All they need to do is chirp back the pressure inside the tire. That's it. Give them enough power to hit a receiver located in the wheel (which might be 4-6" away in a very large tire, probably a lot closer than that, and it's all inside the steel-belted tire) and call it a day. Unless you are playing Ben Hur, you're not going to get close enough to another car's tires for it to become a problem -- use a high frequency and you're going to get a substantial bit of attenuation via the tire itself, and then you're decreasing as the square of the distance through free space. You're never going to have more than one valve-stem sensor per wheel-mounted receiver, so why bother with it?

      If you really do need a weak form of identification, rather than hardcoding a UID, it would be pretty trivial to have each sensor randomly choose a number from a range such that the chance of collisions was low (deriving the randomness from resistor noise or by oversampling whatever analog sensor they use to determine pressure) and reset periodically or each time the car is started. That eliminates the problem of having to coordinate UIDs and prevent duplicates (cf. the cheap Bluetooth transceivers that caused problems because their MAC-ish addresses were all zeros). Every unit can be completely identical.

      On further consideration, I can't really imagine why the designers of the TPMS would have given each sensor a UID (especially since it would probably cause confusion when you rotate tires, if the car's computer tracks them) ... making me wonder if this is just an elaborate 4/1 hoax.

  • Choose your role models carefully (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    KeeLoq has been cracked recently. The wireless access control system is used in vehicles built by Chrysler, Daewoo, Fiat, General Motors, Honda, Toyota (Lexus), Volvo, Volkswagen and Jaguar. All it takes to get access is to record two messages, which can be done from up to 300 feet away. http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/105772 [heise.de]

  • Can we get a car analogy for this? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Digestromath (1190577) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @04:52PM (#22935268)
    I'm having trouble grasping the concepts, can someone put it into a nice analogy using cars? What... wait... damnit.

  • Bubbling up from the lower levels (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Apotsy (84148) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @05:09PM (#22935414)
    Here's a guy posting about a very similar subject on this site a while ago:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=05/04/02/2351243&cid=12123337&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=nested [slashdot.org]
    Not sure how many people took it seriously at the time, but it sounds like it's getting more and more towards mainstream awareness, especially with this new system. 20 years from now, could a person move around at all, on foot or otherwise, without the powers that be knowing about it?

  • ABS Sensor (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kd5ujz (640580) <wgrayNO@SPAMfusioncomm.net> on Tuesday April 01 2008, @05:10PM (#22935428) Homepage
    I am not sure about the new mandate ( assuming its not an April fools joke), but the TPS sensor on my work car (2001 Alero) is the same sensor used for the anti-lock brakes. The ABS computer reads the ABS sensors, and any sensor that is spinning faster than the other three tires is assumed to be a flat tire ( lower diameter causes higher RPMs for a given surface speed).

  • Probably not a 4/1 story. (Score:4, Informative)

    by gardyloo (512791) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @05:36PM (#22935766)
    Here (at the end of this post) is the text of the applicable document summarizing the TREAD act.
    http://www.tireindustry.org/pdf/TREAD_Act_Summary.pdf [tireindustry.org]

        Looks to me that no one is requiring continual monitoring (and reporting) of tires' conditions; only when the tire pressure falls below 25% of recommended cold pressure is a signal required to be sent (and I see nothing about being able to tell which car in a fleet has the problem from outside the car itself).

        Finally, article summary should say "all NEW vehicles sold in the US" require the system, not "all vehicles sold in the US".

    The final rule was published June 5, 2002. Unfortunately NHTSA
    proposed that if a vehicle is using a direct system (with sensors in each
    tire sending a signal to the dashboard) the TPMS does not have to trigger
    until the tire is 25 percent below the recommended cold psi. An indirect
    TPMS (that runs off the anti-lock braking system) does not have to
    trigger until the tire is 30 percent below the recommended cold psi for
    that tire. TIA is strongly opposed to NHTSA's supposed "safety"
    regulation which in effect allows the motoring public to drive on severely
    underinflated tires. TIA has supported a petition that NHTSA mandate
    reserve inflation pressure in tires to offset the TPMS rule. [See letter to
    NHTSA supporting petition.]

  • Run flat tires need TPMS (Score:4, Insightful)

    by enosys (705759) on Tuesday April 01 2008, @09:58PM (#22937410) Homepage
    The article asks why would NHTSA choose TPMS and not run-flat technology [wikipedia.org]. Run-flat tires cannot be used indefinitely while uninflated or underinflated. Generally, in such situations the sidewall supports the load, and the resulting stress on the sidewall damages it, eventually leading to failure. Furthermore, you might not be able to see that the tire isn't properly inflated. In order to prevent people from driving on underinflated run-flat tires until a catastrophic failure and possible accident, TPMS is required. Oh, and run-flat tires have other disadvantages too.

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