ISP Block on Pirate Bay Not Having Desired Effect 177
TechDirt is reporting that the recent block placed on The Pirate Bay torrent site is not only relatively ineffective, but actually driving more traffic to the site because of the attention. "The news from The Pirate Bay appears to confirm this suspicion. According to The Pirate Bay's new Court Blog, Danish traffic has not dropped since the implementation of the block. '...the number of visits from Denmark has increased by 12% thanks to IFPI,' the blog post reads. 'Our site http://thejesperbay.org is growing more because of the media attention than people actually coming to learn how to bypass the filter - our guess is that alot of the users on the site now run OpenDNS instead of the censoring DNS at Tele2.dk.' 'We also started tracking some stats before and after the block. There's no noticeable difference between the number of users from Tele2.dk before and after.'"
Oblig. Quote: (Score:5, Insightful)
-- John Gilmore
Re:Oblig. Quote: (Score:5, Funny)
Truth, ignorance, and condoms. (Score:5, Insightful)
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And the Net also has another interesting trait. It seems operate with a variation of Netwon's 3rd law. For every action there is an opposite + magnified reaction.
Re:Oblig. Quote: (Score:5, Insightful)
This has more to do with human behaviour and predates "the Net".
Banning (or attempting to ban) just about anything is actually a very good way of advertising something. People who would otherwise never have heard about the whatever wanting to find out what all the fuss is about.
Re:Oblig. Quote: (Score:5, Insightful)
As a sidenote, OpenDNS for the win.
ObResponse: (Score:5, Insightful)
-- John Gilmore
-- Seth Finkelstein
No (Score:2, Funny)
QED?
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-- David Gilmour
This is exactly... (Score:5, Insightful)
...what everyone thought, I suppose. I'm wondering: did any of the legislators consult a single tech guy? I don't agree with filtering, but this is just embarrassing.
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Re:This is exactly... (Score:5, Interesting)
They know very well this doesn't work (Score:5, Insightful)
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They have told the IFPI to go ahead and try it in a real court with backing from TDC et. al. so I think Tele2 can in fact ignore the ruling from Fogedretten (and face charges should they lose).
Re:This is exactly... (Score:5, Insightful)
More realistically, they know exactly why it isn't working and aren't trying very hard to implement it. It's called "paying lip-service". A DNS block does work fine, as long as your users don't want to, or don't try to circumvent it. Case in point, I'm using DNS block on my home/small business network to block out adservers, using the list from http://pgl.yoyo.org/as/ [yoyo.org]. Works great, because nobody on the network has any interest at all in circumventing it. If I were blocking something like Google, the users would riot. And they'd switch to a different DNS server.
Most people in the kind of position where they'd be able to implement a DNS block know that the only way to enforce it would be to block DNS traffic at the routers... or to silently redirect DNS traffic to the ISP's DNS server, something that's ridiculously easy to do with most routers/gateways/firewalls.
Its not technical ignorance, its cultural (Score:5, Insightful)
The component they seem to miss is the resolve of those people that know how to do it to not only adapt their system to access anything they want, but to then make the fix for it easily accessible to the masses. They are willing to write scripts, make interfaces, patches, websites, directions, etc so that anyone can do it.
Thats the component they miss, and it is not a technical lack of understanding, but a cultural one.
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Re:This is exactly... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Basically, maybe they don't care whether people get around the block.
Well, if the assholes at IFPI cant access the site anymore, maybe they'll stop complaining. And, hey, it's a best effort deal, most other possible blocking methods would risk catching even more innocent and entirely unrelated sites, without being much harder to bypass.
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That was a rhetorical question, right? (Score:5, Funny)
Of course they did, because married tech guys are just too hard to find.
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Don't bother with the link, it isn't worth it. Really. Nothing there but whores, alcoholics, an alien and and a needle junkie. Nothing you're not dealing with every day, ya know?
-mcgrew
(-1 offtopic, except for the comment it is responding to. Is your head about to asplode, mr. mod?)
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...what everyone thought, I suppose. I'm wondering: did any of the legislators consult a single tech guy? I don't agree with filtering, but this is just embarrassing.
I'm certain they did. And they kept consulting with single tech guys, until they found one that would tell them what they wanted to hear.
And seriously, if you were a tech guy, what would you do, actually put forth a herculean effort to attempt to violate the very policies that make up the internet so some twit politicians can block a PERFECTLY LEGAL WEBSITE, a block which would be bypassed almost instantly, or set up a token effort that gets you a nice paycheck and lets everyone save face? They both pay
Re:This is exactly... (Score:4, Informative)
There was no new legislation introduced. IFPI complained to the special court called "Fogedretten" which only handles property disputes. A judge from Fogedretten made a ruling based purely on his interpretation of existing Danish IP law and ordered Tele2 to block the site. Also please remember that continental European law differs significantly from what you may be used to in US. We do not use common law. A ruling by Fogedretten does not set precedent, like a ruling in an American court would.
Tele2 announced today that they are challenging the ruling in the city court, which means this will turn into a real court case. They are backed by a common interest board of other Danish ISPs.
OpenDNS (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:OpenDNS (Score:5, Informative)
The right question is: Why an ISP claiming to censor and filter is not transparently proxying DNS?
It is the easiest protocol to abuse. A single line NAT entry can do the trick. 99.9% of access equipment out there is capable of doing that. Just add it to the default user profile along with the mandatory web proxy/cache and other similar lines.
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is not transparently proxying DNS?
That would be very easy to do but it would also be very easy to get around.
I grew tired of Roadrunner's DNS re-direction for failed domains and started running my own DNS server. I configured it use the DNS server at work as a forwarder. It would be a small matter to go one more step and configure an encrypted VPN between my house and the office if my ISP started intercepting my DNS queries and redirecting them to their server.
How long before OpenDNS or equivalent services offer a VPN'ed/encrypted me
Re:OpenDNS (Score:5, Interesting)
Interesting question. Here's another one, following the path you suggested:
How long before RIAA/MPAA attempts to have said OpenDNS encrypted DNS query service shut down, on the grounds that it facilitates piracy?
Re:OpenDNS (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, I could come back with arguments like "It wouldn't stop piracy, you can do this yourself without OpenDNS", "they'd have no legal basis for that", but such realistic assessments of the situation have never stopped them before.
I guess the best we could hope for is that enough people would become angry enough to donate money to a legal defense fund for OpenDNS. In any case, as long as they are the ones responding to us and not the other way around it's only a matter of time before we win.
Nothing worth doing or fighting for is ever easy.
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Changing the DNS numbers in your TCP/IP stack is really easy to do. Just open the settings, and poof, it's there. Setting up a VPN to a corporate network requires: a job which allows you to VPN into the network, that your corporate network has a DNS server on a different ISP, a fair degree of knowhow to set up the VPN on your system, and an ISP that doesn't deprioritize encrypted traffic. It's something that's a lot more technical to do, and has a lot
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Setting it up to transparently proxy the DNS is something that's ridiculously easy to do. More than that, it'd probably cut out more than 90% of the pirate traffic. Sure, it's not 100%. Blocking out 100% is nearly impossible with the way the 'net is designed. But 90% is better than zero.
The only problem with your theory is that it's not going to take very much time at all for a solution to be worked out. You spent a whole paragraph criticizing my solution for being "hard" to implement, yet completely missed the part where I suggested that it was only a matter of time before OpenDNS & friends come up with an encrypted solution of their own.
and an ISP that doesn't deprioritize encrypted traffic
Even if your ISP does "deprioritize" encrypted traffic, that's not going to make that much of a dent to a encrypted DNS solution. DNS querie
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I find it highly unlikely.
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Re:OpenDNS (Score:5, Informative)
I don't use (only) OpenDNS because I don't like being tracked and their search page that pops up when you type a wrong address. I run my own caching name server (dnsmasq) that draws from a pool of DNS servers (OpenDNS too) and I get rid of their stupid search page with This is much faster than using a name server that is not in your intranet and has the advantage that I can give names to all machines in my lan (laptop, xbox, mediacenter, mobile phone...), and if one nameserver goes down or blocks something, there are others in my pool.
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I run my own caching name server (dnsmasq) that draws from a pool of DNS servers (OpenDNS too)
Why not just use the root servers and run a fully recursive nameserver of your own instead of relying on a list of forwarders that may or may not have an agenda?
The only reason my nameserver (BIND) at home isn't fully recursive is because I have full control over a fully recursive server (at the office) that I can use as a forwarder. If I didn't have that then my server at home would be doing all the legwork for me.
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He would be better of just emailing us and working with support to get NXDomain responses handed back directly.
-davidu
Re:OpenDNS (Score:5, Informative)
It doesn't get much more transparent -- or easier -- than that. Users without an account do not have their DNS requests logged, obviously.
We're running a service used by hundreds of thousands of IT professionals and millions of users around the world -- we can't even keep stats fast enough as it is for the users who want them, let alone deal with everyone else.
-david (CEO and occasional janitor over at OpenDNS)
Re:OpenDNS (Score:4, Insightful)
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Now do you know how to get around a damn ISP port 25 block when my domain email host won't offer a different port?
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OT - your sig (Score:2)
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Er, the Best Buy "Geek Squad" drives VWs.
I just went back and the page has been considerably changed now
Yeah, Uncyclopedia does that too. But it says [uncyclopedia.org] (just a start)
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-david
Miss Streisand (Score:3)
Also, bittorrent is the only thing I know to get better with the Streisand and Slashdot effects...
You Know. (Score:2)
Anakata on TV (Score:2, Informative)
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I thought this was a bit funny. I checked and couldn't find anything either. Maybe her record company paid for product placement
Streisand effect (Score:5, Insightful)
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Of course, the "Steisand effect" is very specific: an attempt to block information spreads it instead.
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Wouldn't do much good if you did. The court ordered it, so it must be done.
Any halfway-competent ISP could null-route the appropriate IP address(es) easily enough. If feeling really clever, they could even whip up a script which would automatically do an nslookup of www.thepiratebay.com and null route based on the results of that - meaning that the pirate b
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In Other News... (Score:2)
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Appropriate quote at the bottom of the page (Score:3, Funny)
I always thought those were random
HuH ? (Score:2, Insightful)
I really hope some other
Re:HuH ? (Score:4, Informative)
You are missing something. The ISP was ordered to block Pirate Bay, and is sueing so that they no longer will have to do so. Therefore, I have no doubt the effort to block it was knowingly prefunctory.
Problem - Solution (Score:2)
There is always more than one solutions for a given problem?
QED, I would say.
Re:Problem - Solution (Score:5, Funny)
An interesting thought... (Score:5, Interesting)
I think what will happen is already happening. People are figuring out that hey, for only a few thousand dollars, I can BUY the equipment to make my own music or movie, and release it independently.
Consider this. I invest $15,000 in some very respectable music equipment. I write all the songs, perform all the instruments, record it all, and master the mix. I then put up a website on a domain that costs me 10 bucks to register and only 15 bucks to host. I sell the music in multiple no-DRM formats on my website. In addition, I upload it onto various torrent sites, and include in the file a readme with a link to my website asking that people buy it. I upload a link to the site on Digg, Stumbleupon, Reddit, etc. I post the link in forums, in newsgroups. I submit my stuff to internet radio stations, post it on MySpace/Facebook...I even spend a little bit more money to get some advertising on various gaming and independent music websites. Let's assume that with all of this, my costs are now sitting right around $20,000 for total amount invested (not including time, of course.)
Assuming that my work is good and that people like it, I have the potential to make more money than I would with a record deal. Not only that, but I would OWN the equipment that I had made the album with, which I could then either sell, or I could keep and record another album thus making more money (especially since it would be a one time investment)
I'm not saying it would be easy, but the potential to earn far more than I invest is definitely there. By putting the album up on torrent sites and such with a link to my website, I am building an empire. I am getting free advertising. I am getting word of mouth. I am getting EXPOSURE, and it's not really costing me much of anything.
THIS is what will eventually be the downfall of the music industry (the movie industry not so much...equipment has definitely come a long way, but it's still very expensive compared to producing an album). The music industry won't be driven out of business by people downloading their crap for free...it will be little old me with full creative and distributive control over MY creation. It will be people KNOWING they can download my album because they don't have to worry about any lawyers running after them. It will be people SUPPORTING an artist like me, because I am doing the same thing they are: looking for new musicians who are doing it all on their own.
(Note: I am not actually doing this...I can barely play the nose whistle, much less any other instrument)
Re:An interesting thought... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the difference between copyright infringement and stealing. If I steal something from you, you have to replace it somehow if you want to sell it to a paying customer. That's additional cost, and if I steal enough I can drive you into the red. If instead I copy your product, you still have the original and can sell it if you can find a buyer.
If, say, ten thousand people buy the product and that's enough to turn a profit, it doesn't matter if ten people pirate or if ten million people pirate - it's no cost to the producer. Even if the whole remainder of the earth's population pirated, it wouldn't affect the profit-loss sheet, as long as that hard core of buyers remains.
The remainder of your post I think is quite correct - that the middleman is going to become extinct in the future. But you seemed to imply that increasing the ratio of pirates to payers would produce losses. That's not true, as long as the absolute number of payers does not decrease. Reduce the payers to one tenth of their former number, that's a loss. Increase the pirates to ten times their former number, no difference at all.
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You still don't get it! If people can just download it, in full fidelity ( musically ) then why would they buy it? What is the added value in buying it? None. So this guy has spent his 20,000.00 and has all the tools. He puts SOME content on a torent, he seeds Facebook, YouTube or what have you to give people a taste. If you buy it from his site, unencumbered by ANY sort of rights management and then YOU post it on say, PirateBay or any of the other numerous sites and it just gets downloaded and no one
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You still don't get it! If people can just download it, in full fidelity ( musically ) then why would they buy it?
I don't know why. Perhaps you should ask Baen Books? Or any of the authors who've allowed Baen to put some of their books in the Baen Free Library in vanilla unrestricted HTML format?
It's you who don't get it: even when Baen does that, people do buy those books. And more of them buy them after they're freely available than were buying them before. And they buy them both in electronic form (t
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Street musicians still make money.
A "professional" musician I know claims he makes more money on the street than his does from his label.
-- Should you believe authority without question?
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However the alternative point of view is also legitimate: that copyrights should be granted on creative works, and that licences should be sellable by the rights holder. Thus creating an incentive for more, and bigger, works to be created.
You have to admit that your method will mean then end of big-budget movies, computer games etc. - anything that requires a large investment which
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You have to admit that your method will mean then end of big-budget movies, computer games etc. - anything that requires a large investment which is traditionally recouped by selling individual licences to consumers. The arts would become the preserve of amateurs and those working under the patronage of the rich.
No, there's no inherent reason why those works have to be produced by investing one's own money up front and then hoping to recoup it by selling individual licenses. You can collect the money up front instead, from the very same people who would be buying those individual licenses, and work under the "patronage" of your fans. And once the work is finished, there's no need for any exclusive distribution rights, since you've already been paid.
It might take a little more work up front to coordinate the paymen
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Re:An interesting thought... (Score:4, Insightful)
A few thousand dollars (even 20k) is a non-trivial investment for most people. It gets even harder because at the value you quote you're only considering equipment and initial costs. If you start selling and transferring files, that $15/mo host will probably cut you off quickly and you'll have to move to something more expensive. I imagine that you'd be pushing to have your download income outpace your bandwidth bills, never mind costs for the rest of your equipment.
And as you said, you didn't include your time. Or your residence, food, or anything else you need to live. So you'll probably have to be working a job and doing this in your free time, which carries its own set of pitfalls.
I'd wager that the cost of running a business like this (since that's what you're doing) would not be high, but your income would probably not be much higher. I would be less surprised to see them operate at a consistent loss, since you aren't really selling anything. Giving your product away and hoping for handouts is a sure fire way to lose money on something.
And that only considers costs based around the production of an album of music. Never mind other, more expensive media (animation, video games) that don't have any real-life counterparts.
MOD PARENT UP! (Score:2)
This is the crux of it. Someone who actually gets it.
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Owning a PC with a
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Sounds like it is time for classic quotes 101 (Score:2)
What kind of Techs run that ISP? Have they never watched Star Wars?
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At the prospect of being cutoff from the Pirate Bay, "A million voices suddenly cry out in terror and were suddenly silenced" as they made a simple DNS change and went about their business.
It's going to court (Score:5, Informative)
IFPI is to Stopping Piracy... (Score:2)
Only drawing attention (Score:2)
But nooo they had to call attention to things. You would think people would learn from others mistakes.
Eh, wha? (Score:5, Informative)
This is only logical, while english is a very common language and a great many people speak it as their second, third language, it is not the most common language.
In europe, most tv-stations, even the commercial ones are man-dated by law to provide a certain amount of "native" broadcasting. That is why the station RTL4 which was clearly aimed at dutch audience spend money on a luxemburg program block in the early hours to satisfy the law (they were based there using a loophole).
Childerens tv in holland has had a strong EU only feel to it in my youth, simply because US programs did not meet EU regs against advertising to childeren.
As for how it is affected, it is not even clear yet how copyright infringement affects hollywood, how it affects local cinema in the rest of the world is anyones guess. We certainly are not going to get the truth about it from the media, they after all have a rather direct intrest in the matter.
So far however it seems to matter little, Remember non-hollywood movies tend not to pay quit as much to their stars. This matters a lot, to pay those idiotic salaries a Tom Hanks gets you need to make massive profits. Pay them a more modest wage and you have a lot more room.
Also what you claim about english content being more easily accepted in the rest of the world helps. I can far more easily find a seeded torrent of a US show then say a belgium program even if said program in the country itself is more popular.
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If you want to speak with an accent, go for it.
Messy writing? Spelling mistakes? No problem.
Confuse you're apostrophe's? Irritating, but still readable. (It took me about a minute to write that first sentence.)
26 characters and you're good to go. You can express any damn sentiment you want.
Compare that to, say, Cantonese, where you have to worry about intonation, angles, way more characters, &etc. Even fr
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But English, man, any semi-coherent motherfucker with a keyboard, pencil, pen, paper, dirt path, or whatever can be understood by any motherfucker unfortunate enough to read the gibberish.
Hey, you're right! I understood you perfectly!
you're rather odd (Score:4, Interesting)
well duh. bollywood makes far more movies than hollywood. but bollywood movies don't spread out from india very much, except in indian expat communities, because outside of india, hindi or other indian languages are used very rarely. but outside of anglophone countries, you still find a lot of people who understand some english
you mention how french canada feels about this. what do you mean how they feel about it? i'm talking how much the movie's cultural influence is. what, french canadians go see a jason bourne movie and then go home and take a shower and vomit in disgust because they saw an english language movie? your attitude is bizarre. either they watch it, or they don't. that's all that matters. they vote with their feet, not with the attitude in their mouths. if they are in the theatre, watching the movie, they are influenced. done deal. if they watch the movie, the deed of cultural influence is done. if they dislike warmongering american neoconservative imperialism, or whatever, who cares? it doesn't change the outcome of going to the movies and being influenced
"This is only logical, while english is a very common language and a great many people speak it as their second, third language, it is not the most common language."
you don't seem to grasp logic. if everyone has language X as a second language, movies on language X will penetrate more people's consciousness than movies in language y. therefore, cultural output in language X will come to dominate. your observation about english supports my opinion, and destroys your conclusion, which isn't logical at all
"In europe, most tv-stations, even the commercial ones are man-dated by law to provide a certain amount of "native" broadcasting. That is why the station RTL4 which was clearly aimed at dutch audience spend money on a luxemburg program block in the early hours to satisfy the law (they were based there using a loophole)."
yes, this is called cultural protectionism. cultural protectionism is unnecessary in a healthy culture that isn't being eroded or feels threatened by another culture. a law requiring a certain amount of cultural output is enacted and enforced because one culture is afraid of being dominated and flooded out by another culture. which gets back to my original question about piracy threatening german, or czech, or danish culture: destroying the financial means to create a culture which feels threatened, would seem to be more damaging to a culture already feeling vulnerable. that's my original question. do you have an answer for it? the rest of your words seem to dance around unrelated subject matter. i think you think you are informing me about very obvious things, things which i already know. it's patronizing and strange
"As for how it is affected, it is not even clear yet how copyright infringement affects hollywood, how it affects local cinema in the rest of the world is anyones guess."
ah! an answer: you don't know
"We certainly are not going to get the truth about it from the media, they after all have a rather direct intrest in the matter."
huh? i asked you. i'm not the media, you're not the media
"So far however it seems to matter little, Remember non-hollywood movies tend not to pay quit as much to their stars. This matters a lot, to pay those idiotic salaries a Tom Hanks gets you need to make massive profits. Pay them a more modest wage and you have a lot more room."
ah! good answer, great answer, and one i agree with: people will always make movies in danish, or german, or czech, because they are proud of being danish, or german, or czech. well done
"Also what you claim about english content being more easily accepted in the res
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Cultural enforcement doesn't take place on the torrent movie/tv show networks.
On Demonoid (RIP), I saw a lot of polish stuff- never downloaded it since I do not speak polish but it was there.
But, for folks downloading, LOST, Battlestar Galactica, and other first run shows- they see them in english. And it doesn't matter if some low budget local culture show is the only thing on TV while they watch their downloaded shows.
The sad thing is that american shows present a REALLY FALSE image of americ
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Remind me never to get a TV job in Europe. Especially if you gotta date guys.
He has a point (Score:2)
Correction (Score:2)
PS.
GET AN EDIT FEATURE SLASHDOT! THIS IS 2008!
That is all.
DS.
Subsidized (Score:2, Informative)
and since piracy is hugely prevalent in europe, i wonder what the epxerience has been for danish movie, czech music, etc.
Culture in most European countries is heavily subsidized. Since you ask specifically for Danish movies, I can tell that for commercial movies the state pay two thirds of the production costs, and for "artsy" movies more than that. Danish language books and TV is also heavily subsidized, so any negative effect of unauthorized copying is marginal.
Music is also heavily subsidized, although indirectly, through a "blank media tax". The media tax is distributed to commercial artists based on how much they sel
thank you for your answer ;-) (Score:2)
although it may change its implementation someday
Re:thank you for your answer ;-) (Score:4, Informative)
Most "small language" populations are not willing to pay for the true cost of local language culture directly, but are willing to pay indirectly for it through taxes.
The interesting corollary is that since the culture has already been financed indirectly through taxes, there is no reason to attempt to extract direct payment through distribution restrictions (copyright law). By removing the distribution restrictions one would also increase the added value of the culture, as per standard economic theory (the added value is the difference between the price of the product, and the value of the product to the buyer).
something is NOT rotten (Score:2)
and please be exporting more connie nielsens and more viggo mortensens, thanks
Re:a question (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed, creative works should be a drain on society. Manual labor during the day and creative works during the night. Assuming you're not too tired to do anyhting.
Don't know about you but I don't see films being done as concerts (as plays and films are entirely different mediums.) And of course, having reduced ability to do something is always good. Cutting back opportunity is always a benefit.
Ok. So cost of duplication is gone.
You love this example because it lets you convince yourself that all you need to do anything is a laptop, and you let yourself ignore ALL of the other costs that go into the production of an album. Never mind that human creativity reaches beyond music albums (and you need more than a laptop if you want to make something that sounds good. I hear microphones are pretty expensive still.)
Of course they are, but they need to eat too.
They would, but you'd see a lot fewer people making it. Go ahead and tell yourself that ALL the bad things would go away and all that would remain would be good things.
In a world driven by money and commerce, the injection of money into artistic works is NOT artifical. It's the natural product of the way the world works.
I'd rather have enforced copyright of reasonable length than be reduced to crap packed to the gills with advertising, or more American Idol type trash. Which is largely what you'd get if what you want were to happen.
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got it. because creative output depends upon enforcing a corrupt and failed economic model. it always has. the creative class as a mafia of extortion is the only way it can ever get funds. pffffffft. moron: you confused me attacking the current failed economic model of cultural creation, for attacking the very idea of supprting cultural creation
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Now if only there was some sort of building where they could display films at. What they could do is charge a fee in exchange for permission to enter. This would allow them to make money off their effort without restricting my freedom of speech.
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> NOT artifical. It's the natural product of the way the world works.
>
> I'd rather have enforced copyright of reasonable length than be reduced to crap
> packed to the gills with advertising, or more American Idol type trash. Which is
> largely what you'd get if what you want were to happen.
Um, American Idol and adware ridden rubbish *is* the result of money driven "art". If you could not make money out o
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and yes.. I live i
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And that's probably the next thing the Swedish courts are going to order the Swedish ISPs to do.
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