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MySpace Verdict a Danger To Depressed Kids
from the don't-need-no-more-reasons dept.
Since a jury convicted Lori Drew of three misdemeanors for harassing Megan Meier on MySpace and causing her to commit suicide, most of the debate has focused on the question of whether proper legal procedure was followed in an attempt to punish someone for their obviously evil actions, when it wasn't clear that an actual crime had been committed. Emily Bazelon has argued that the rule of law is too important to convict someone for a crime for what was essentially a violation of the MySpace Terms of Service. Anne Mitchell has argued that the slippery slope is nowhere near as dangerous as the backlash is making it sound, because the doctrine of prosecuting people for violating a site's TOS is almost certainly only going to be used against people who commit horrific acts in the process, as Lori Drew did.
I'm more inclined toward the rule of law argument, but hang on — both sides seem to be assuming that it was a desirable outcome to punish Lori Drew publicly and severely. Hell yes she deserved it, but there is more at stake here. What about the consequences for kids who are current victims of harassment and who hear about the case and the verdict?
When anti-cyber-bullying laws were proposed in response to the original news of Megan Meier's suicide, I argued that the laws would be a terrible idea, especially if the criminal provisions of the law were conditional on the bullying victim harming themselves — because then you've created told victims of harassment: You can have your tormentors publicly vilified and even arrested, but only if you make it look like you tried to injure or kill yourself (and at which you might succeed in the process, intentionally or not).
What would be true of a cyber-bulling law is also true for the pseudo-caselaw created by the verdict. Surely there are other Megan Meiers out there who should not be led to believe that they can ruin their harasser's lives by committing suicide.
Now you might argue that by my reasoning, existing harassment laws which are contingent on the victim showing signs of emotional distress, could lead to the same problem — victims either consciously faking distress, or trying to fake distress so convincingly that they actually harm themselves, or subconsciously absorbing the fact that they can only get justice if they actually show harm. I had actually assumed that existing harassment laws governed only the conduct of the harasser, and did not depend on how the victim felt, but I was wrong — here in Washington State for example, RCW 10.14 states that harassing conduct is conduct that
"shall be such as would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress,
and shall actually cause substantial emotional distress to the petitioner." [emphasis added]
Reading that literally means that no matter how bad the harassment is, you still have to feel distressed in order to have them prosecuted, and the more distressed you "act," the more likely you are to succeed! But hang on — in order for that law to create incentives for victims of harassment to fake distress in order to have their personal enemies prosecuted, they would have to actually know that the law says that. I doubt that most people walking around Washington know the exact wording of the harassment law. More likely, they already realize that if they were to ever try and have someone prosecuted for harassment who didn't actually deserve it, a little tears and shaking would probably influence the judge, whether or not their feelings had any technical relevance under the law. And even if they were to exaggerate the effects of the harassment, all they would have to do would be to claim that they threw up or lost sleep from anxiety — they wouldn't have to show evidence of trying to harm or kill themselves.
On the other hand, everybody has heard about the Lori Drew and Megan Meier case, and it seems likely that the fact that Megan killed herself did contribute to the conviction. (At one point Judge George H. Wu had said that he would probably exclude evidence from the trial that Megan Meier had committed suicide as a result of the harassment, but later changed his mind and did allow it to be mentioned, saying "It's impossible to get a jury that doesn't know.") If Megan Meier had merely lost sleep, or suffered from panic attacks, or cut herself as a result of the harassment she endured from Lori Drew, would Drew have been convicted? Or even arrested?
These perverse incentives — "rewarding" Megan Meier for her suicide by vicariously exacting her revenge on Lori Drew — have been present ever since the wall-to-wall coverage of the case first started. Many news outlets have a policy of not publishing the names of suicide victims, not only to protect the privacy of grieving families but to avoid "rewarding" suicides by giving them the attention they may have wanted. The Associated Press Statement of News Values and Principles does not list any policy against printing the names of suicides. Maybe they should. (They do have a policy against printing the names of sexual assault victims, for example.) But it's a slippery journalistic slope to go down once you start deciding not to publish certain elements of a story, even for what seem to be compelling reasons. For example, take the policy of not publishing the names of alleged rape victims. If the rationale is that the AP doesn't want to cause unfair embarrassment to the alleged victims in case their story is true, why wouldn't the AP also avoid publishing the name of the defendant, to avoid causing them vastly greater unfair embarrassment in case the victim's story is false? So any decision to leave someone's name out of a story can lead to sticky "but-then-what-about" scenarios.
Perhaps the story should not have been covered at all, or anywhere near as much as it was. (I realize I may be contributing to the problem here, but my penance is that I'm calling for less coverage in the future, and I would never be writing about this if the mainstream media hadn't covered it so extensively.) What about all the other people who committed suicide during the same year, also as a result of vicious harassment, but with the only difference being that their suicides did not involve the Internet? Don't they deserve the same justice, and don't their tormentors deserve the same vilification?
Defenders of Internet civil liberties have for years been disgusted with the fact that crimes involving the Internet — from simple identity theft to rape and murder — have always gotten disproportionately more attention than the same or similar crimes committed without the aid of a computer. In the Megan Meier case, the effect of the coverage is even worse: Leading potential suicides to believe that they can have the sympathy they always wanted, and revenge on those they hate, if they kill themselves.
Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:5, Funny)
I mean, I was raped on the Internet. My Karma went from Excellent to Terrible due to one post.
But I'd hardly call it a crime. Travesty, maybe...
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:5, Interesting)
If the rationale is that the AP doesn't want to cause unfair embarrassment to the alleged victims in case their story is true, why wouldn't the AP also avoid publishing the name of the defendant, to avoid causing them vastly greater unfair embarrassment in case the victim's story is false?
Excellent quote. You jest, but take into account this true story: my buddy who was 21 at the time was in a sexual relationship with a 17 year old whose father(who was a Sheriff) allowed it, even inviting my buddy to go on camping trips with them and allowing them their own tent.
After an abortion, the relationship turned sour, and my buddy was arrested shortly afterward for statutory rape. Only his name and the crime he was being charged with appeared in the paper. Bad news given the conservative, small-town lynch-mob environment. Though the charges were dropped after he posted bail, his rep was ruined all because of a petty revenge stunt with connections to law enforcement. The media are ruthless and they value sensation above all else.
Bennett's essay is great all-around as encroaching laws provide greater opportunity for enchroachment and abuse(the DMCA comes to mind), and it's frightening that emotionally unstable teens(aren't all teens emotionally unstable?) will have greater latitude in becoming weapons. It's kind of analagous to suicide bombing - give 'em an incentive, and they'll do it. And in today's absurd world, why wouldn't a depressed or terminally ill person offer their revenge service for hire?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Ummmmmm no shit?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
One lesson is: gather evidence that would demonstrate the dad was okay with it. If he then tries to go after you for the fact that the girl was underage, you can produce evidence that makes him party to the crime since he knew about it and approved.
That said, I'm guessing the poster's story isn't 100% accurate. In many (most?) states its perfectly legal to sleep with a 17 year old regardless of the age difference. The additional lesson to be had: know the laws in your state. That lesson also applies t
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:5, Insightful)
The lesson here is that it shouldn't be illegal for anyone to fuck a 17yr old girl.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:4, Insightful)
She was beautiful, mature, and a good match for me.
I refused to touch her and date her.
Her father showed up and my apartment one night with a six pack.
He said that he had a sad little girl at home because she liked a guy who did not like her back.
I told the dad it was not the case just the age difference and the law.
He cracked a beer and said he did not have a problem with the age difference but he laid down some ground rules.
1. Birth control - he did not want any grandkids just yet.
2. No drunken debauching outside of my apartment
3. Treat her well
He then went on to explain that he was 15 years older than his wife and they had gone through the same thing.
We finished the six pack and 10 minutes later after he left she showed up with an overnight bag and we ended up dating for 2 years.
But banging the sheriffs daughter is still a stupid decision unless you plan on marrying her. Daddy can always arrest you.
Plus he knocked her up.
Plus an abortion.
Your friend is a douchebag. The cop trusted the dude and he knocked her up and brought her DR Coathanger. No sympathy whatsoever.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:4, Insightful)
snowgirl, if you're ok with some guy who was previously in a loving relationship with a girl, with the consent of her family, having his life destroyed because the relationship turns sour, then you're not over whatever it was that happened to you.
The guy the GP referred to, does not deserve your misplaced anger and wish for retribution. The guy who assaulted you does.
Best of luck.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:4, Insightful)
It doesn't matter about the person's consent or not,
Which makes the whole thing completely screwed. If we can held 13 year olds guilty of murder, when we can prove they understood what they were doing. If someone underage can be show to have been acted on his\her free will, consented and had knowledge of the act, NOTHING should be brought against the older person. Be him 16, 20 or 40 years old.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:5, Informative)
Right, because I'm a hysterical female, right?
"Methinks doth protest too much". I didn't see anywhere where that was even hinted at. and I think you're completely missing his point. What if his incredibly dimwitted buddy had been innocent? Look at the Duke University LaCrosse players case from last year. A stripper (who was probably a prostitute, every stripper I ever met would take money for sex) falsly claimed that five guys raped her.
The five who were falsly accused had their names dragged through the mud, their teams' name was dragged through the mud (IIRC they even disbanded the team for a while), while the slut's not even mentioned, even though the true victims were the men she lied about.
His point was, again, if you're innocent until proven guilty, why do they publish the suspect's name but not the victim's? Seems fair to me that nobody's name should show up until there's a conviction, or everybody's should.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:5, Insightful)
To summarize this conversation:
1. Submitter rightly points out that it is inconsistent to, for example, demonize the Duke Lacrosse team while protecting the name of the accuser.
2. Poster tells cautionary tale of a friend who admittedly committed statutory rape and was charged with statutory rape. Certainly the dad was no hero here, but this has nothing to do with the original story, because the friend was not falsely accused of a crime. He was, rather, charged for a crime that he committed that is rarely prosecuted (which is not a defense).
3. snowgirl points out that poster's buddy was in fact charged with a crime he admittedly committed, and wonders why he deserves her sympathy.
4. In response, AC implies that female poster only said what she did because she was raped and hasn't gotten over it.
5. snowgirl expresses disgust with AC.
6. McGrew says that snowgirl missed the point: The Duke girl was a stripper and probably a prostitute. This is probably true (and completely irrelevant---if you rape a prostitute, it's still rape). None of this has any bearing on snowgirl's point, which is that the buddy's story is not like the Duke story because the buddy was, in fact, and admittedly, guilty of the charged crime, not innocent, like the Duke Lacrosse players.
7. Somebody below accuses snowgirl of being ugly and maladjusted, or something along those lines.
8. [A week from now] Slashdot runs another story bemoaning the mysterious dearth of women in IT.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:5, Interesting)
If we're going to enforce rules on freedom of expression in this regard, then what ought to happen is media outlets should spend as much time/space/articles/etc on the exoneration as on the arrest. In the Duke LaCross example, that means for every 500 word article with bold front-paged headlines like "Duke Players charged with sexual assault", there should be at least one 500 word article with bold front-paged headlines like "Duke Players innocent; Crystal Gail Mangum and DA Mike Nifong are lying whores".
There are two advantages of it being this way:
1. Those that are already relatively private remain relatively private.
2. Media outlets can still choose what to report on, namely, they don't have to report on arrests and charges at all, but if they choose to do so, they must report on all exonerations and dropped charges for the same an equal share.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:4, Interesting)
and it's well established that a parent cannot consent their child to....
Then who is qualified to judge when a child is ready to do anything? I know what you are trying to say and I agree there should be some base lines, but the person that should be able to help their child determine when they are ready to do something should be their parent....not their peer pressuring boy/girl friend or the state...which ultimately means the parent has some say, thus some consent.
Marriage laws [cornell.edu] already differ by state about age and parental consent. And there was already one case where a judge ruled in Texas that because of parental consent a common law marriage occurred and thus no statutory rape happened.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:5, Interesting)
Let this be a lesson to anyone... just because someone is looking the other way when seeing you do something doesn't mean that it wasn't illegal or criminal in the first place.
What if a crime didn't happen in the first place but the charges were made and brought to the public? See: Duke Lacrosse Team Scandal [wikipedia.org].
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:4, Informative)
Here's a hint... parental consent to statutory rape does not make it any less illegal.
depends on the state.
In many states the laws are different with parental consent. Check out the marriage laws by state [cornell.edu]
I believe there was an example above that said California requires all parties to be 18 or older and that isn't true with parental consent. There is no age limit with parental consent.
You might be asking why I am bringing up marriage. Well in Houston there was a case that involved an illegal immigrant who was living with his girlfriend at her home in her room. She was 13 and he was 17*. The judge ruled that since the couple were living together with parental consent that it constituted a common law marriage. Thus no statutory rape because the couple were common law married because of parental consent.
* This was before the polygamist sect moved to Texas and we changed our laws. Before they came, the age limit was 12 for girls and 13 for boys with parental or judges consent.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's what you took from that story?
Wow.
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:5, Funny)
So they can charge you with Child Pornography too?
Parent
Re:Internet crimes, like rape? (Score:4, Funny)
So they can charge you with Child Pornography too?
Just what I need, to be charged with that yet again.
Parent
Not sure I agree with that last bit. (Score:5, Insightful)
Suicidal people, by the very nature of being suicidal, aren't really in a position to make rational judgements regarding what may or may not happen should they top themselves. Suicidal people have, since time began, justified wilfully idiotic acts with spurious reasoning that only makes sense in their own heads. Whatever the outcome of this people will continue to think suicide is their best option - either for their own sake or because they misguidedly believe it'll make someone else feel bad, or even get punished. That isn't some new and exciting insight. It's just been made a little more concrete by this particular case. Using Megan's suicide as a rallying cry of "oh how terrible, everyone will be bumping themselves off for revenge now!" is pretty small minded and it devalues the good that came from Megan's too short life in my opinion. Shame on you.
it adds another concrete reason, though (Score:5, Insightful)
Suicidal people aren't 100% irrational zombies or something. They seize on things and overemphasize them, downplay contrary evidence, etc., but they do still have thought processes that take into account the external world.
One of the (many) ways of trying to convince people who are in particular suicidal because of a desire to "get back" at someone is that suicide is not a particularly effective way of getting back at people. Providing a very concrete way in which it arguably actually is a good way of getting back at someone is not very helpful from that perspective.
Parent
You guys (OP included) are ignoring Megan's facts (Score:5, Insightful)
Megan Meier was not trying to get back at Lori Drew. Nor could she possible have been. She died *not knowing* that Drew was her harasser. Indeed, the verdict against Drew hinged on her *falsifying* her identity. If she had really been that boy she pretended to be, that boy would have committed no crime and gotten off scott-free. The simple fact was, Megan killed herself because she thought the boy of her dreams had turned on her, and Lori Drew is guilty of creating the delusion that drove her to it. It has nothing to do with getting back at anybody.
Only in the absurd case that someone is suicidal, being harassed by an imaginary person, KNOWS that their harasser is imaginary, yet simultaneously still believes in the fake person, can this verdict ever provide an incentive to suicide. The only incentive this verdict gives anyone is the incentive NOT to pretend to be someone else in order to push people into killing themselves.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Suicidal people, by the very nature of being suicidal, aren't really in a position to make rational judgements regarding what may or may not happen should they top themselves. Suicidal people have, since time began, justified wilfully idiotic acts with spurious reasoning that only makes sense in their own heads.
That's the "Crazy people are all crazy" argument which fails to note that it isn't back or white, some people are more delusional than others. This ruling has just made it easier for the more rational people to end up in the same way as the less rational.
Fine... present to me a reasonable judicial due process to evaluate whether the person is really crazy, or more rationally crazy.
There isn't a way. So, treat them both the same... after all, the outcome is still the same...
Re:Not sure I agree with that last bit. (Score:4, Insightful)
"Rational" and "sane" are not the same, and might be opposites. If someone's goal is to minimize their own gross (not net) discomfort, death might be the only rational solution (depending on one's worldview.) On the other hand, many common human behaviors are irrational.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Women are 3 times more likely to attempt suicide than men, HOWEVER Men are 4 times more likely to die in a suicide attempt. Is this just because men are better at killing themselves than women? Or perhaps there is a gender difference in the reasoning behind why people choose to attempt suicide.
Nope men are better at everything.....*ducks*
Insurance (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And then you say even a moron knows they won't get paid for that. But the article says that using similar reasoning people are going to
Identity theft. (Score:3, Insightful)
Defenders of Internet civil liberties have for years been disgusted with the fact that crimes involving the Internet â" from simple identity theft ... have always gotten disproportionately more attention than the same or similar crimes committed without the aid of a computer.
I am a big civil libertarian and I have to disagree with them on this one. Then again, I don't see how civil liberties are directly affected when things are publicized other than the over-reaction by policy makers and the hysterical members of the public who enable them.
When internet identity theft scams are publicized, it puts its cause into the public's mind; such as phishing schemes. I don't know of anyone who trusts emails from their bank or eBay anymore asking to "verify personal information" or anything like that. Phishing schemes have become much less successful because of the publicity.
I have to agree (Score:5, Interesting)
What if Drew had a son who agreed to seduce Megan, and who then told her to kill herself? The onlly difference would have been that if it was in person, there would be no evidence - but there would have been no crime, either.
If so, my friend's Annie's boyfriend is guilty of the same thing. Annie is on Zoloft for clinical depression, and one night when she was in a bad way and talking suicide, he told her everyone would be better off if she did. I wound up taking her to the hospital, where she was admitted to the nut ward.
Contemptable, but is it legal? Lots of contemptable things are legal. BTW that crazy Annie's back with her boyfriend. I hope she gives him the clap.
Re:I have to agree (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, inciting someone to commit suicide is a crime if they actually succeed, or even if they don't apperently.
From the New York state legal code.
"A person who willfully, in any manner, advises, encourages, abets or assists another person in taking the latter's life, is guilty of manslaughter in the first degree." Section 2305 adds that incitement is a felony ever if the would-be suicide survives.
Parent
Re:I have to agree (Score:4, Insightful)
If a guy did this to Megan, and given how large the media circus was, he'd be branded a sexual predator regardless of age and be ostracized from society for the rest of his life.
Parent
Oh, the guilt, it fills you. (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't about myspace, or terms of service, or teenage suicide. This is about guilt. Even when it's "only" online, we're still talking to other people. We're communicating. And communications form the basis of relationships and through relationships we can effect changes to a person's mood, behavior, life circumstances, and more. The issue is trust, and how some people abuse trust. And all of our criminal codes come down to this. I'll say it again, it's about trust. So people feel naturally betrayed and angry when trust is violated (even accidentally).
But the law is not about trust. The law is about balancing personal freedoms (which includes the right to mistrust and also to betray trust) with society's so-called "best interests", which is mostly about avoiding and minimizing harm. Anyone can throw up a terms of service, and you can't tell me most of you wouldn't wipe your bottoms with the lot of them. I also think I'd find very few people here that would say that talking is a crime; Even when the matter under discussion is about illegal things (like drugs, or underage sex) -- or things we find morally objectionable. Speech in and of itself is not a crime; Actions are criminal.
Yes, she manipulated the hell out of someone who was vulnerable. But how is that different than commercials on TV, selling us crap we don't need? How is it different than the mormons coming over every sunday to try and convert you? It's not, except for intent. And we all want to punish her, not for violating some TOS crap, but because she violated the trust relationship between a child and adult. "It's all for the children" and we rush in stupidly, blindly, reflexively, to protect them. And that is what happened here. The very thing the justice system is supposed to prevent: Linking emotive thinking to punishment.
Assholes and Law (Score:5, Insightful)
... punish someone for their obviously evil actions, when it wasn't clear that an actual crime had been committed.
This is what I call an "ASSHOLE LAW", where someone obviously evil to most people, but clearly within the confines of what is "legal".
In the old days ... people like this would get their asses kicked, and the law would look away. The assholes would end up being isolated away from the rest of the community.
Bad cases make worse laws. This case is just another example of ASSHOLE justice, which is really bad for defining what is legal or not legal.
Assholes always skirt around the edges of what is legal, which is my definition of what an asshole is. Assholes ruin it for everyone else.
Next Asshole on the list ... Blago.
Re:Law can't make the world NICE. (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem results in Political Correctness.
Should people be allowed to be asshats? Sure why not? But they should expect to be punched in the nose every once in a while when they are.
Should people grow a spine? Sure, why not? We really shouldn't cater to the whiny sniveling lot either. They should learn to punch people in the nose.
The world was much more polite when people actually could punch someone without fear of being sued into oblivion.
I generally agree with your assessment, however the last paragraph is only presenting half the story. The other half of the test should be "should a middle age woman harass a young teenager the way she did?"
I honestly don't know of ANY adult woman, middle age, that would even think of, let alone bother to execute such a plan. I cannot even comprehend the mind that thinks that was fine, funny, or even remotely okay to do. I know they exist, but I can't imagine a worse excuse for a pathetic piece of womanhood.
Parent
Just like the Crucible/Salem Witch Trials (Score:5, Interesting)
That's the basic principle in this essay. I'm not saying that I agree with all of the finer points of the essay, but it makes a good argument overall. So far in my short lifespan, I have heard several cases involving harassment which were attempts by the harasser to cover up what they were doing by claiming the victim was the harasser.
of Overly-broad laws (Score:3, Insightful)
This verdict is just another sad example of making an overly-broad law under the guise that it will never be abused, and will only be used when "necessary". Laws are not meant to be used this way, and the old standby comes immediately into play, "that which can be abused, will be abused." Laws open to interpretation will be misinterpreted, or interpreted in a manner that would horrify those that created and supported the overly-broad law.
Say NO to catch-all laws every chance you get. If they can't define the law in such a way that it cannot be abused/misinterpreted, it's not a good law, I don't care what you're trying to prevent. Find an airtight way to word it or don't put it on the books.
You assume Megan knew 'Kyle' was an alias (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to suggest that:
I'm not saying it's a good verdict; it's not. I'm just saying your particular concern about creating incentive for bullied kids to harm themselves seems a little exaggerated when you consider that they would have to know the bully was violating the terms of service before harming themselves in order to bring punishment on the bully.
Re:Whatever you do... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't blame the parents or doctors for putting the girl on dangerous SSRI and anti-psychotic drugs.
From the third grade Megan had been under the care of a psychiatrist. She had been prescribed Celexa, Concerta and Geodon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megan_Meier [wikipedia.org]
The FDA and other bodies have found that SSRI medications cause increased suicide and agression in people under the age of 24.
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/briefing/2006-4272b1-01-FDA.pdf [fda.gov]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ssri#Adverse_effects [wikipedia.org]
http://ssristories.com/ [ssristories.com]
Blame someone else, its the [new] American way!
Blaming SSRIs is so stupid. What are they supposed to do? Let her live out her life in misery?
SSRIs can also cause liver damage, but you don't see people suggesting that this risk means they shouldn't be used. It's an ADVISEMENT that the doctors should consider the person's state before prescribing them.
Actually, the presumption on SSRIs here is that people will come out of a deep depression, and begin rationalizing suicide. Not that SSRIs actually cause the suicidal intents on its own.
Parent
Re:Whatever you do... (Score:4, Insightful)
I feel the same way about parents dragging their kids off to be diagnosed with ADD. Try pulling them away from the TV and the pure sugar juice box and making them run around outside a bit. It's easier to focus when you're not constantly on a sugar high and looking for a way to burn some energy. I feel sorry for those kids... once you get categorized with that kinda of crap teachers practically act like you're special ed. Some of my friends really got screwed by that.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Seriously, what kind of ASSHOLE CHAUVINISTIC PIG would say that the person alleged of sexual assault should it not be true would be WORSE off than the victim were it true?
Read it again. He didn't say that at all. He said that the embarrassment of being publicly identified as a victim of sexual assault is less than the embarrassment of being publicly accused of being the assaulter. He was comparing the results of publication, not of the crime itself.
Re:Victim's pain is less than a false allegation? (Score:5, Insightful)
I stand by my position, and refuse to alter it.
A person who refuses to ever change their position is a person who refuses to learn.
I don't care what he was talking about, to me it says that my pain is less than something else.
In other words, he hurt your feelings, and damn any logic involved.
I acknowledge your pain. I acknowledge that, since I am not a rape victim myself, I cannot truly appreciate how much you have been hurt.
However, the fact that you were hurt is not a get-out-of-debate free card. I will not abandon logic to comfort you, and the point stands.
Any pain caused by this being pointed out, publicly, is less than that caused by the act itself. But being publicly identified as a victim gives you sympathy. Being publicly identified as a perp makes him hated -- in a small enough town, might even drive him out.
Certainly, you could make a case that it's deserved -- if he actually did it. So, yes, in your case -- but not every woman who cries rape has actually been raped. And people won't forget he was accused, whether or not he's actually convicted.
If you still believe anyone accused deserves that, fine -- but I hope, at least, you don't think anyone is automatically a chauvinist pig for daring to suggest it.
Parent
Re:Victim's pain is less than a false allegation? (Score:5, Interesting)
No one is saying that someone who is actually raped suffers less than someone publicly identified as their rapist.
People are saying that someone who falsely accuses rape (which happens very, very frequently) doesn't suffer as much as the victim, who has done nothing legally wrong and just wants to go back to their life.
Unfortunately, they cannot.
As an undergraduate at RIT, I have a friend who was in a relationship with a woman. As relationships sometimes do in college, it died away after they had sex a few times; my friend had decided that he wanted something more than just sex, and since she didn't want to be in that kind of relationship, she left him.
The next morning, he was walking back from the bookstore; public safety showed up with three officers and a police car. They said his name, and he responded with a groan (he was the RA, and there had been some drinking the last week that he had to break up) and a "what's up". He was taken to a room and asked where he was on a given date (incidentally, he had been at the hospital on that date for an injury that had happened during robotics club). He was then told that he was being accused of rape.
Before he was even *charged* with the act, he had to start defending himself to the college immediately. A student conduct hearing was scheduled, he had to move off campus immediately (as in, that night; he had to come back to his room under police and campus safety escort and get a small number of his belongings to take to a hotel which he had to pay for for 4 weeks until the hearing), and he was removed from his job, all classes and student activities, and his position as the RA pending the hearing.
Mind you, this is all BEFORE he has been charged.
The police verified that he was, in fact, at the hospital at the time (two days before they broke up); she quickly changed her story 7 or 8 times as this went on, to the point where the police told her not only that this wouldn't fly in court and that it was pretty obvious that she was lying. At his request, they filed their recommendation that the school that they find in the same fashion.
They didn't; they decided that "no conclusion could be found". He was kicked out of school. If you search for his name on Google (he has a rather unique name), the first thing you see is a bit in his home town paper saying that he was under arrest for rape.
If you think that his suffering was less than the suffering of the woman who put him through that, please, tell me how.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I would not have said "less than a false allegation" but I think you understate the magnitude of what happens to someone who is accused of such a crime. Many people accused of sexual assaults lose their jobs (as they are unable to attend their workplace), and most will spend months suspended from their job while the police and prosecutors decide whether to proceed. In addition they will normally be publicly named (and have the allegation against them permanently recorded in newspapers etc), and there are ma
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So, because you're a woman, and you've been hurt, it's ok to destroy an innocent man's life?
All men are pigs right?
I'm not making light of sexual assault, my best friend was raped and it didn't take her a week to recover, it took her years. About two before she was comfortable hugging close male friends, and another year after that before she could handle dating. Her first boyfriend after that had a tough time, because she had several panic attacks that would be triggered by seemingly benign events, but w
Re:Victim's pain is less than a false allegation? (Score:5, Interesting)
First of all, why is it that this is suddenly a crime when it's done online, but if you're being harassed at school, no one cares? I spent 4 years being picked on every fucking day for no reason. I'd get hit, I had my glasses and possessions broken or thrown into the water, etc. When I went to the cops, do you know what they said? "Maybe you should see a counselor or take up karate" Really? It's not like I'd taken karate for 5 years already, and was trying to avoid fighting on principle. School officials did nothing. The authorities did nothing. And when my parents went to talk to their parents, they found them to be even bigger assholes than their kids. And when I did fight back, _I_ was the one who was punished, or sent to detention. And it kept going until one day, 3 of them decided to pick on me outside of school on the way home from the bus. My expensive new glasses got broken, I snapped, and left all 3 of them crying on the floor. And then it stopped.
There are thousands of kids who live through that every day, who can't fight back the way I was able to, and no one does anything. At best, if you're lucky, they'll send them to the school counselor, who will then proceed to do absolutely nothing. So please enlighten me as to why this is perfectly ok, even though there are a multitude of suicides and self-abuse cases over similar situations, but "cyber-bullying" is somehow so much worse.
As for the rape story, first of all, you seem to be equivocating statutory rape with assault/rape. This is not the case. A very close friend of mine was assaulted and raped when going home one evening and she's still trying to get over it more than 8 years later. To somehow claim that this act is the same as statutory rape is completely absurd. Why do I feel this way, you might ask. The reason being that statutory rape depends on what the state believes the victim's ability to understand the situation and make a valid decision. The problem is that each state can decide this. Why is this a problem? Because, for example, when I was a senior in high school I began seeing a freshman (an age difference of 3 years). The age of consent in New York State is 17. The age of consent in New Jersey, which was a 5 minute drive away, is 16. How, I wonder, does she magically gain maturity and the ability to make a rational decision if we drive a few miles, and then mysteriously lose it when we go home?
Don't get me wrong, I didn't sleep with her until she was of age (which had less to do with the law and more to do with when she was comfortable with it), but that doesn't mean that the law is any less idiotic in that situation. Yes, the GP's friend is an idiot, and he did in fact commit a crime, but the way in which it played out just goes to show how stupid the law is. In another state, likely just a few miles away, it would've been perfectly legal! At least in NY, we make an effort to make some distinction (it's only a misdemeanor if the perp is under 21, and the victim is over 15), and the severity of the charges increases the younger the victim is, but other states have no such provisions, and make little distinction between a 50 year old man who slept with a 10 year old, and an 18 year old boy who slept with his 17 year old girlfriend. And lest we forget that the latter case goes into the sex offender database as well, making it difficult to find work, a house, etc. I know one guy who married the girl who was the "victim" and later couldn't find a job because he was a registered sex offender.
I'm beginning to stray off-topic, but my main point is that equivocating assault/rape to statutory rape, regardless of the circumstances, is an injustice to both victims of rape/assault, and both parties involved in a statutory rape case. Just because they both have the word "rape" in the name does not make them the same thing.
As for the main point of the article, the most sensible solution is to keep both perpetrator and victim's names private, because both are entitled to due process. Too often, society judges us to be guilty regardless of what a court of law has to say, and the media rarely prints retractions on accusations they make.
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Re:Victim's pain is less than a false allegation? (Score:5, Insightful)
vastly greater unfair embarrassment in case the victim's story is false?
This is how I see it:
If an alleged victim's name is published, letting everyone know they may have been raped - the detriment to the victim is that everyone will then know that they'd been raped, which understandably causes a great deal of embarrassment and additional psychological damage to the victim.
If an alleged attacker's name is published, letting everyone know they may have raped someone - the detriment to the attacker is that they are also embarrassed and publicly humiliated (though not at all to the same extent), BUT, they also typically lose their jobs, their families, their friends, and are presumed guilty of the crime and treated as such (innocent or not). In most countries it stays on their record whether they were convicted or not, and typically they have to live with that shame the rest of their lives - whether they did it or not.
Do you see the difference?
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Re:Victim's pain is less than a false allegation? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you kidding me?
1st - anyone who holds it against a rape victim is probably not someone a rape victim distance themselves from as quickly as possible. This is not one of the warm, compassionate people that a rape victim should have around to help them to heal.
2nd - for some reason, people don't seem to believe that someone accused of rape, even after acquittal, can be truly innocent (or else they wouldn't have been accused, right?).
Finally, to claim that a false accusation of such a serious VIOLENT crime is a mere "embarrassment" is utterly ridiculous! Like a rape victim, such an individual will be subjected to public humiliation. Unlike a rape victim, they will probably be shunned by some family members and friends, lose employment opportunities and may even be subjected to violence as a result of those accusations.
snowgirl, I do not mean to imply that the crime commited against you is trivial. To the contrary, to be violated in such a way (rest assured, this is not beyond my comprehension) is one of the most demeaning things which can happen in your life. I would suggest, however, that to claim that the social rape of an individual with such a false accusation does NOT pale in comparison. With a rape victim, the body will heal and in time, so too will the mind. For those falsely accused of rape, the stigma will never relent.
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Re:Good-bye Karma.... (Score:4, Insightful)
All I can say is boo-fucking-hoo. Everyone in Western society is so utterly spoiled. Anyone wanting to committ suicide in a Western country, save a very minute number of cases, should just get it over with because we don't need your cowardly influence any longer. Let me explain.
This post is either a troll or genuinely ignorant. Either way, it's certainly not "insightful."
People who are suicidal typically suffer from depression or other mental illness. Even in affluent civilizations, they aren't cowards or somehow morally deficient. They just have a disease which warps all of their perceptions in such a way that suicide appears to be the best alternative. Bullying might act as a catalyst, but the underlying phenomenon is usually illness and almost never a moral failing.
As for people who are bullied, sure they don't suffer as much as someone being raped, tortured, etc. But they do suffer, and not in a trivial sort of way. "Shut up about X, because at least you're not getting Y like those other people" is morally repulsive when X and Y both involve the victim suffering significantly---even if X is no where near as bad as Y.
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Re:Good-bye Karma.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Listen to yourself ... there's so much anger and bitterness showing in your post, you might want to reconsider your position that you are somehow that morally superior to those that felt suicidal, as those beatings probably affected you more than you think ... "all it ever did", I don't think so. I'm not even sure it's normal to feel that strongly about something that really has nothing to do with you if things are as you purport them to be - those suicidal people did nothing to you. It sounds more to me as though positing your status as being higher than those "weak losers" (in your mind) helps you see yourself as stronger or better (an imagined position you're clearly fighting hard to maintain, suggesting maybe it is in doubt in your mind) --- in fact, what you are ultimately doing is very much akin to bullying those 'losers'. It's all about maintaining a position in the social status hierarchy; your not being suicidal doesn't make you 'better than' those people. You're holding a lot of anger and bitterness down and it's very obvious from every other sentence; your attacking people you perceive as weak (who might be a lot stronger than you in fact, you DON'T know what else they go through) is probably doing harm to the people around you.
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Re:Good-bye Karma.... (Score:4, Insightful)
From another angle: My impression is simply, you're clearly spitting venom, and I think it's because you're still in pain.
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