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Should You Get Paid While Your Computer Boots?
Posted by
kdawson
on Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:02 AM
from the define-work-and-give-two-examples dept.
from the define-work-and-give-two-examples dept.
An anonymous reader notes a posting up at a law blog with the provocative title Does Your Boss Have to Pay You While You Wait for Vista to Boot Up?. (Provocative because Vista doesn't boot more slowly than anything else, necessarily, as one commenter points out.) The National Law Journal article behind the post requires subscription. Quoting: "Lawyers are noting a new type of lawsuit, in which employees are suing over time spent booting [up] their computers. ... During the past year, several companies, including AT&T Inc., UnitedHealth Group Inc. and Cigna Corp., have been hit with lawsuits in which employees claimed that they were not paid for the 15- to 30-minute task of booting their computers at the start of each day and logging out at the end. Add those minutes up over a week, and hourly employees are losing some serious pay, argues plaintiffs' lawyer Mark Thierman, a Las Vegas solo practitioner who has filed a handful of computer-booting lawsuits in recent years. ... [A] management-side attorney... who is defending a half-dozen employers in computer-booting lawsuits... believes that, in most cases, computer booting does not warrant being called work."
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Submission: Does Your Boss Have to Pay You While You Wait? by Anonymous Coward
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Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Do people who work at the local McDonalds get paid for preparing the restaurant to open at the beginning of each business day and for closing up shop at the end? I sure hope so.
This is the exact same situation. If the employers don't like it, they can pay someone to set up a script to automatically boot the computer half an hour before the start of the business day. I'm sure they can justify the cost once the cost is actually there.
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, the service industry is a bad example. I worked at a convenience store for a summer and my wife worked at a coffee shop for a while. Both of us stopped getting paid when the doors were locked despite the fact that there was still cleanup to be done. The theory was that we were supposed to be cleaning as the shift was winding down, but time and customers rarely allowed for that. Crappy summer jobs aren't necessarily comparable to career jobs, however (unless you're unfortunate enough to have a crappy service job as your career) because both of us had the option to leave and take better jobs where we were paid fairly.
Just because it happens in practice doesn't make it legal. IANAL but a good rule of thumb is when you arrive at work, and are ready to work, you get paid. Over a decade ago I did the summer job thing, dishwasher, food service, even some light industrial. All tried to play the game of stiffing pay. Light industrial for example it's common to not pay people for the first hour, just have them wait around until other people show up. Food service, if it's sluggish they would prefer you hang out and drink coffee before getting paid. You got out of bed, you got there ontime, you're working. It doesn't matter if they have nothing for you to do, if you can't go home, you're at work. It often takes a few phone calls to the department of labor to verify this.
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was still an hourly employee we used an electronic timecard--you couldn't "clock in" until the computer was booted and ready. Usually took a really long time...30 minutes in total. You didn't even have the option until your machine was booted and workable...God forbid you have issues starting up.
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
When I was still an hourly employee we used an electronic timecard--you couldn't "clock in" until the computer was booted and ready. Usually took a really long time...30 minutes in total. You didn't even have the option until your machine was booted and workable...God forbid you have issues starting up.
WTF!? I didn't RTFA (of course) but even using Windows, what computer takes 15 minutes to boot? One minute I could understand, 15 minutes? Even my big SQL servers don't take that long to boot the OS and then bring the DB online. If you are fiddle-farting around before logging in then no, you shouldn't get paid. If you are bitching about not getting paid for the 1 or 2 minutes it takes to boot and log in to the system then I submit the boss has the obligation to put a camera on you to make sure you don't answer your personal cell phone or text message anything personal or chat up a colleague about non-work-related stuff or otherwise waste a minute or two of his time.
If it truly takes 15 minutes to boot your system then your IT guy should not be getting paid at all.
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Re:Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
In Belgium I am insured when going to work and getting from work, even though I do not get payed that time.
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Re:Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
This ought to be pretty typical even ( especially ) of shitty low-wage jobs. Now I work salary so I roll in when I feel like it, go home when I feel like it, if I feel like working a 4 day x 9 hour week I can, and so long as my assigned tasks get done I continue to get paid.
If your situation resembles neither of these either you're on the dole, or you're getting screwed by your employer and should file a complaint or unionize.
Don't let your boss fuck you, that's anti-capitalist. Fuck back.
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
WTF dude you aren't slaves. Your employer owes you backpay. Don't let anyone fuck with you when it comes to your paycheck. The third option is to sue him for back pay when you leave. If it's overtime he owes you so much the better. Probably best to let a lawyer do it for the cost of your backpay, if for nothing else than to teach him a lesson.
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
I love the young kids working and doing what some Jerk-wad boss tells them to do. If I get paid from 8-5 then I turn on the PC at 8:00am and not a second before, and Log off? screw that, the pc get's it's power button held down at 5:00pm or I start shutdown at 4:50.
If the boss bitches I say , "so fire me" I'm doing the company a favor, not the other way around, dont be scared to tell your boss no, he needs to thank you every day for coming in and giving the company your skills.
Yes that is reality, many of you guys out there think otherwise and that is why the workplace is such a craphole. you pump up these idiot managers that think they are doing you a favor, they never are.
P.S. my attitude got me promoted all my life. I'm now a top level exec at a startup that is going stron in this economy. and I bring my workers doughnuts every friday out of my OWN POCKET. to say thank you to them for coming in to work and working for me.
any boss that does not do that is utterly worthless.
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Re:Yes. (Score:5, Funny)
or if you wanna be a super huge gaping asshole, you can murder their children and bask in the lamentation of their mothers.
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Funny)
if you wanna be a super huge gaping asshole
There's this website you might have heard of...
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Re:Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
I consider myself to be libertarian but I don't see any problem with unions. To prevent workers from organizing is contrary to libertarian principles. How can one value liberty and freedom to the fullest extent allowable (meaning to the point where one group's freedoms impede another group's) and yet deny workers the freedom to organize ?
A lot of people, myself included, have observed problems with unions making ever increasing unfair demands and being at least partially responsible for creating the incentive for companies to outsource. Yet I still support a worker's RIGHT to unionize. Just as I support the companies RIGHT to try to get the best labour possible at the lowest cost.
I don't see where people started to get this idea that libertarianism is a synonym for greedy capitalism. Yes we favour free market and don't like government interference. Yet that has nothing to do with favouring corporate execs over workers. People seem to have gotten things so twisted since the US economy went south. Pointing to the recession and saying "see! free market doesn't work and this is what libertarians want !!!!". Try doing some reading first and then ask yourself if you really believe that libertarians want corporations to be able to influence government to increase their power. Libertarians are directly oppose to power in all of it's forms. That's the very fundamental basis of libertarianism. That relates to unions in the sense that unions are a way of countering power levied against workers. There's nothing wrong with that. Certainly not in libertarian politics.
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Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
Libertarians are directly oppose to power in all of it's forms.
That's just bullshit. Libertarians are not opposed to the state's monopoly of violence when it is to protect life and property, and libertarians are not opposed to accumulations of wealth and property. Both of these are forms of power.
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Re:Yes. (Score:5, Funny)
I wholeheartedly endorse your support your proposition to start a prostitutes union. I'm sure the women are sick of having to give freebies to the pimps.
Parent
Absolutely (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't recall the case name, but just a couple of years ago it was ruled that employees had to be paid during periods where they were putting on and taking off protective gear and uniforms. I can't see waiting for a machine to boot up to be any different.
Major back-pay is coming their way for this. All those 15 to 30 minute periods add up. Plus probable punitive damages, and sometimes the feds even decide to toss a fine in for good measure.
Parent
Re:Absolutely (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Having spent time in call centers observing work behaviors, he said most employees boot the computer, then engage in nonwork activities. "They go have a smoke, talk to friends, get coffee -- they're not working, and all they've done at that point is press a button to power up their computer, or enter in a key word," Rosenblatt said.
The impression you get from reading the article summary is that there are legions of poor tech workers who show up to work, turn on their computers, and then sit there idly in their cubes, twiddling their thumbs for a half an hour waiting for their computer to boot, and their employers dock them for that time.
But once you hear the other side of the story, it sounds to me like these "poor victimized employees" come in, hit the power button, and then walk off to do other stuff which occupies them for the better part of an hour, because booting takes (realistically - c'mon, now) more than ten or twenty seconds (which is longer than the average attention span of say, a college grad with a business degree), and that management is trying to get a handle on it as best they can.
This is a classic case of "blame the technologies for my laziness (because my boss doesn't understand it, either, and he'll buy it!)" This isn't anything new, it's an internal management issue.
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't rightly matter, if the employee is wasting off the clock time you fire them. You don't get to say "Well you weren't doing a good enough job here, so I'm going to not pay you for it."
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Interesting)
Many corporations are now utilizing virtual time clock software, requiring hourly employees to clock in via their PC. Couple that with a hypothetical policy of having to shut down PCs overnight to save power, and presto, employees don't get paid for booting.
Parent
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
To add to the conversation, if at desk, then getting paid. If the time clock is running on the computer, don't power down the computer to ensure you are paid for the time you are there. If policy prohibits that, then they need to change their time clock methods.
Parent
Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Then don't do it. Leave the computer off, and ask your boss when to begin working.
What do you think? (Score:5, Insightful)
I get paid to post on Slashdot.
30 minutes? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:30 minutes? (Score:5, Funny)
Only the DX. The DX2 is actually a double clock speed of a 25 MHZ.
I tried them both with Xwing, and the 66MHZ wins hands down.
Parent
These computer must be from 1995 (Score:4, Funny)
Re:These computer must be from 1995 (Score:5, Funny)
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No. (Score:5, Interesting)
The person who telecommutes would not get paid for that time, why should the person in office?
Re:No. (Score:5, Insightful)
The person who telecommutes would not get paid for that time, why should the person in office?
Telecommuters can flick the switch and literally get on with something completely not work related - eat breakfast, shower, masturbate, or have sex while the computer boots. Last i checked that was frowned at work, but I guess it depends on the industry.
Parent
Re:No. (Score:5, Funny)
...or have sex while the computer boots
Actually I had sex while on conference calls a few times. Thank god for mute, both for my sake and for the sake of coworkers. My ex was a screamer. Good memories, I tell you.
Parent
Re:No. (Score:5, Insightful)
The person who telecommutes would not get paid for that time, why should the person in office?
Because the person who is at the office is getting paid for doing one additional thing that the telecommuter isn't being paid for: being at the office.
If the employer told me to be there at 9am, I don't care if there's work to be done or not. Time isn't free, and I could be doing something else at 9am. I could be sleeping in, I could be doing laundry, I could be playing video games. If part of my job is to be at the office at 9am, then I get paid for being there at 9am, whether or not I'm waiting for my tools to be ready or for them to tell me what to do.
If he tells me to be there at 9 and stay until 5, and doesn't give me any work, should he pay me for that time? How would you justify answering "no" to that?
If my employer *really* wants me to start working as soon as I get in, he can pay someone to go through the office at 8:45am and start turning the computers on before I clock in. Oh, that costs money? He could leave the computers on all night. Oh, that costs electricity? It's all a balance, but it's still part of the cost of operating the business. If I'm expected to turn it on, then it's part of my job's duties, and thus it's obviously something that I need to be paid to do.
Parent
I'm in the building (Score:5, Insightful)
That sitting at my desk waiting on the computer doesn't get anything done is irrelevant.
It started with being 10 minutes early. Then it was at your desk and working at 9 am. Now at your desk waiting for your PC to "show up to work" so you can log in and start getting paid.
Besides, if this goes... the next stop is monitoring software measuring every second that you are actually inputting.
Situation more complicated that it seems (Score:5, Informative)
my time, my paycheck (Score:5, Insightful)
in most cases, computer booting does not warrant being called work
The way I look at it is I'm being paid for my time. Time that I can't be off doing something I want to do. How much I get paid for my time of course depends on what I can accomplish with the time they are buying from me.
But for ME, time spent sitting idle at work, time that my employer is requiring me to be there, is time I should be paid for. How many people would be OK with their boss saying hey how about you come in an hour early and leave an hour late starting tomorrow? Not on the clock or anything, I just want you to BE here. You don't have to work. But it's going to be a new requirement around here.
Sounds silly and of course you can't find anyone that would be OK with that, but that's just this issue taken to a little of an extreme to prove a point. Your time is your time. If they want you to give some of it up, they better be paying for it. If it took me 15 minutes to get the computer booted up to punch in, and after I punched out I was required to spend another 15 in the office waiting for it to shut down, you can bet I'd be having a talk with my manager about compensation for my lost 65 hrs of pay a year. That's a week and a half of paycheck lost a year. Not really lost, time TAKEN by your employer without compensation.
Little stuff like that adds up. Don't let them fool you by saying oh it's only 15 minutes, you don't mind that do you? That's cheating me, pure and simple.
The real problem (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem is that many employers use a time keeping system which pays employees based on when they log into some system. For example, a friend of mine works through manpower as a temp for $10/hour just answering phones all day. When she gets to work, she must turn on the computer, and wait for it to boot, which is not the same as home computer because it boots from a network and has to log into a Citrix server somewhere. That takes a bit longer. Then, once a desktop appears, you have to open the "soft phone" software to control the phone and log into the queue. Only then do you actually start getting paid.
There is no way for the employer to know that an employee is at work and working unless they are logged into the soft phone. This means that if she has to be at work at 8:00, that really means she has to have the computer on and be logged in by 8:00, so in reality, be there by 7:45 and be "at work" but not be paid for that first 15 minutes.
It's not that the problem isn't solvable, even with a different technical solution, it's just that's the way they do things. The employers don't see it as a problem, and if you aren't logged in by the time you are supposed to be working, you are "late". Rack up around 5 "lates" or so, and you are fired automatically. It's all done by computer systems behind the scenes, so if you log into the phone at 8:01, you risk being fired. All the more reason that it is really underhandedly telling employees that they must show up for work 15 or more minutes early, and that time is unpaid.
It's not just about being at work and having to reboot and go unpaid in the middle of your day, it's about the only way your boss knows you are even at work requires the computer to already be on.
It's the law. (Score:5, Interesting)
Some employers have tried to tell people to show up 15 minutes early so they are "ready to go" when work actually starts at 8:00 (or whenever). Won't wash. If they require the employees to be there for those 15 minutes, they are required to pay the employees for those 15 minutes.
The liability is entirely on the corporation here (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Funny)
Call me old fashion....
Shuddup, a-line flares! You ain't nothin' but a lime green tank-top!
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More than just Windows.... (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:More than just Windows.... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:More than just Windows.... (Score:5, Funny)
Erm.... Apple?
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Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not purely the boot time of the computer. Many places require that you open several applications in order to accomplish your assigned tasks. These can take time to load and access as well. If the system administrator(s) use the wisdom of IT to use boot time to scan drives for application and other content audits, it can take quite a while before the machine is actually usable. Same sort of thing happens at shutdown in many places.
I have had myself removed from the 'normal' network profile to avoid all that crap on my work laptop. I archive at home on the weekends (at my cost) and scan at night for malware etc. I do not need their invasive methods as I am not helpless and lazy as are the users who have forced them to resort to this kind of methodology to comply with security policies, SarBox etc.
It is more than possible that people spend 30 minutes a day waiting on routine maintenance processes that are run during bootup and shutdown.
The part I like is that I use the laptop at home, and may be actively running scripts overnight, yes for work. The 'normal' profile includes a forced reboot at 3 a.m. I have spoken quite heatedly several times to IT people about the completely asshat idea that a forced nightly reboot is required for LAPTOPS used by people traveling with the laptop.
IMO, if you are forced to be at work, and to tend to the pc, then it's payable labor.
Parent
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Interesting)
How the hell does it take anyone 15 minutes to boot up their computer.
Anti Virus software (such as the bloated Symantec and Norton products) examining every single file that is accessed when a user's 1GB+ roaming profile is synchronized across a network that is already clogged to begin with is just one of many ways to cause this effect.
Parent
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's something that I think really needs to be addressed, because even 10 minutes a day wasted on this crap is more than a week's worth of unpaid work every year.
Parent
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Interesting)
When I worked at a call centre, punching in was tied directly to the "ready to take calls" status on my phone. We were expected to reboot and sign into the computer and about 8 applications and websites and read all the newest service alerts before signing into the softphone to take calls.
As soon as we signed out of the softphone for any reason other than a scheduled break or training it also punched us out. So we weren't paid for reboots or quick trips to the bathroom, or even for stepping away from your desk to ask a supervisor or colleague for help between calls. Well, the supervisors would make sure you got paid if you had to talk to them by correcting your time sheet, if they remembered.
Shafting the employees for 15 minutes every day only made it that much worse for the company. Their customers got poorer service and were put on hold frequently. We also found ways to cheat the system. Time theft was rampant there, and everybody justified it to themselves and others as fair because the company was stealing from us everyday. Management would eventually weed out the worst offenders, but being a shitty call centre it had a very high attrition rate as it was so getting fired was kinda difficult.
While I was there, I contacted a reporter for the newspaper who was also a former president of his local. His union also represents workers in call centres, and he and I met for lunch with a union organizing rep. He told me that he would help bring the union in, but often call centres will simply relocate as soon as they notice any organizing. This was very likely at my call centre, where on the first day of training we had to read together the first page of the training binder a bunch vaguely threatening anti-union propaganda.
One time while I was working, fire alarms went off in the building. I told my customer about the alarms and that I had to hang up. Just as I was doing that a supervisor stood on a chair announced that they were checking to see if it was a false alarm and to keep taking calls. I locked my computer and headed towards the exit, where another supervisor was physically preventing people from leaving by standing in front of the entrance in a fighting stance. A few minutes later news came back that it had indeed been a false alarm, but they hadn't known that when they prevented us from leaving.
It's that same attitude from the Triangle Garment factory. These call centre companies are 21st century white collar sweat shops. That day when the fire alarm went off really put things into perspective for me.
Needless to say, I didn't get paid for the time away from my desk trying to get out of the building because of fire.
Parent
Re:15 minutes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you're salaried, your boss is out of compliance. When you're ready to move on, make sure he gets a visit from the dept of labor.
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Re:So, automate the boot process. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:huh? (Score:5, Funny)
George Jetson was paid the whole day just to press a button to start the plant in the morning and shut it down before he went home. Same thing.
If a fictional cartoon character from the future can get paid for that, then I don't see why I can't be too.
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