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Blogger.com Banned In Turkey
Posted by
timothy
on Sun Oct 26, 2008 05:10 AM
from the no-longer-young-turks dept.
from the no-longer-young-turks dept.
petermp writes "A Turkish court has blocked access to the popular blog hosting service Blogger (Blogger.com and Blogspot.com, owned by Google), since Friday, October 24th, 2008. According to BasBasBas.com, a Dutch blogger based in Istanbul, who alerted readers about the issue: 'It is suspected that the reason for this has something to do with Adnan Oktar, by some considered the leading Muslim advocate for creationism, who has in the past managed to get Wordpress, Google Groups, as well as Richard Dawkins' website [banned].'"
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Turkey Censors YouTube 482 comments
FM Reader writes "After a controversial mock-up video reportedly submitted by a Greek member about Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, Turkish courts ordered the national ISPs to ban the online video service, YouTube. YouTube hostnames are currently redirected at the DNS level to a page that announces the court order."
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1 simple PGP script... (Score:4, Interesting)
You can block Blogger, but in its place will grow thousands of pages, you cannot stop them all! (but you can easily identify the creators I suppose).
This seems like a very irrational decision, surely this will be appealed.
Re:1 simple PGP script... (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It was also wrong, because it refers to Turkey as a muslim country
99% of Turks are Muslims [wikipedia.org].
Re:1 simple PGP script... (Score:4, Insightful)
All religions are dogmatic , and extremly dangerous if they becomes to powerfull.
And it's everyone's right , or even duty , to guard against that. Period.
Parent
Turkey? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to say, I'm really surprised this is happening in Turkey. Turkey is actually a fairly westernized country, and while it is predominantly Islamic, it is quite progressive on religious issues. Its constitution even guarantees freedom of religion (and Turkey has no official state religion), and since 1924 has maintained a secular government. I was led to understand that there is strong opposition in Turkey to the government interfering in matters of religion, but perhaps that is no longer the case for whatever reason...
Re:Turkey? (Score:5, Insightful)
Regrettably, this was never implemented well in practice, as both the Islamists and the secularists are suspicious of outside religious traditions, whether because they are not Muslim or because they are not "Turkish". Case in point, the attempts to wipe out Eastern Orthodox Christianity in Turkey. The law states that the Ecumenical Patriarch must be a Turkish citizen, and not brought from e.g. Greece or another Orthodox country, but the authorities have tried to shut down all Orthodox seminaries in Turkey so that it's increasingly difficult to raise up a successor.
Parent
Re:Turkey? (Score:5, Interesting)
What ignorance. What about Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia? They're all peaceful*, large Muslim nations. Indonesia has more Muslims than any other nation.
Besides, intolerance, genocide and xenophobia are a key part of any religious book. It might as well be in the job description. The problem is when people actually listen to the book, and that normally rises out of external issues (e.g. crippling poverty and corruption).
*Granted Indonesia and Malaysia fight a bit, but that's not religiously motivated.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
There must be two Indonesias, because the one you describe is very different to this one [smh.com.au].
Re: (Score:2)
Pakistan is hardly "peaceful" by any means, given the increasing dominance of the Muttahida Majilis-i-Amal and the Jamaat-e-Islami (both vast and powerful Islamist parties), and non-Muslims have been and still are severely persecuted in Pakistan (Sangla hill riots, the 1971 Bangladesh genocide, the forced kidnapping and conversion of Hindu and Christian minorities), as numerous human rights NGO's and various condemnations by the USCIRF have documented exhaustively (in fact, Turkey is markedly better off).
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He's a muslim preacher that got jailed for conducting worship services in Indonesian (and Arabic) instead of just Arabic alone.
Seems he got the bright idea that his fellow indonesians should actually _understand_ what he is saying (most Indonesians don't understand Arabic).
He got jailed for inciting hatred. Great way of keeping Indonesia "peaceful" - jailing such people who incite hatred.
They burn down churches regularly in Indonesia. And christian
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Malaysia? The country the ruling party in which uses a slogan, "race, religion, nation"? The country which divides its citizen into Malay - first-class cream of the crop (bumiputra), and everyone else - second-class scum, and requires all Malay to be Muslim by law? (if you aren't Muslim, you aren't Malay). The country which forbids changing one's religion in the passport from Islam to anything else, because the mullahs won't recognize the change ("There is no such thing as leaving Islam. Apostasy is a crim
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Indeed, you are right in every aspect. Malaysia is a lot like Nazi Germany in this respect (compare their racist ideology of "Bumiputera" ie sons of the soil to Nazi Germany's "Blut und Boden" or "blood and soil"; same thing).
I am genuinely concerned about the situation with the Chinese and Indian minorities there. Race riots targeting them seem to be escalating, and Malaysian leaders like Najib Razak openly threatening Chinese Malaysians with genocide and Mahathir Mohamed who said that Indians in Malaysia
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Malaysia has peaceful elections. One party always wins, but you could say the same about Japan or Bavaria. Bangladesh has a two-party system no less democratic than America's. Indonesia's last election was verified as fine, with shortcomings, by Jimmy Carter.
Re:Turkey? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Turkey is the one Muslim country that does not directly attacks anyone with another religion, and commits genocide upon them."
Pretty much wiped out the Armenians in an inconvenient genocide. The Greeks are gone in repeated pogroms. Any equality was pretty much expressed in the form that everybody got genocided pretty much evenly.
They are now working on the Kurds. A decade ago it was illegal to speak Kurdish, name your child with a Kurdish name, broadcast in Kurdish, used Kurdish colors. This has been relaxed because Turkey wants in on international institutions.
I guess "equality" is a work in progress in Turkey with it trying it equalize everybody into being a particular Turk, God forbid if you are not.
You'd be insulting Turkishness (A criminal offense by the way)
G
Parent
Re:Turkey? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, Turkey has done some bad stuff and killed quite a lot of people, but never in the name of religion. Turkey is almost aggressively secular. The military is known to step in and take control whenever any religion gets to much power. There is at the moment 86 people in a single trial for treason because the tried to perform a coup against the government, which is run by an openly Islamic party (elected in a free and open election). But then the grandparent is also wrong in calling Turkey a Muslim country, the currently ruling party still tries to keep Turkey a secular country.
Parent
Re:Turkey? (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Turkey? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Turkey? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Turkey is a military dictatorship. (Score:5, Informative)
The modern western turkey was founded by Ataturk and is currently enforced by the military. The democracy part of Turkey ONLY exists as long as it does what the military wants and in the past the military HAS intefened several times when the elected leaders did NOT do what it wants.
The sad and confusing thing is that from a WESTERN point of view it is the MILITARY that is right and the public/voter/elected leaders who are wrong. It is the MILITARY that wants a STRICT seperation of church and state, even going so far that Turkey is NOT an islamic nation. It has NO STATE RELIGION. There is equality, press freedom etc etc. Because the military says so.
The voter however in recent years has been increasingly voting for religious parties. The reasons for this are complex. Part of the problem is that the current system works to well. In those cases people tend to forget what brings them their current prosperity. Turkey is doing amazingly well but it is a bit like the US where places like New York and LA are being outvoted by the people from the bible belt. So, right now the country is being torn. If the voter is allowed to elect religious leaders then that is the democracy that the EU wants in its members BUT it would also mean Turkey slides into an islamic nation the EU does NOT want on its borders. Allow the military to keep the current system and Turkey is dictatorship in all but name, something the EU could never allow a member to be.
As for the individual Turk, well, there is of course no such thing. You might as well label all US slashdotters along with that comment in Oprah story yesterday where she was considered new age because she said there might be more then one way to heaven then through jesus. The religious right is on the rise. Turkey is struggling with its desire to be a democracy and the risk this would cause it to slide into a islamic dictatorship.
It does raise the intresting question, if people elected their dictators, is it still a dictatorship? Make no mistake, the people who protest this bloggers ban are NOT intrested in democracy. They want to turn Turkey into an Islamic state where the islamic law rules. They just know that their best bet to get this is through the voting booth because any violent means to do this would be opposed harshly by the military.
Westerners find this hard to understand. We are used to thinking of the military as the opressors. Not the guardians of freedom.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why do you think that Islamic law contradicts democracy? A repressive, bloody tyranny-of-the-majority is still a democracy...
a mistake you have there (Score:5, Informative)
first major coup was in 1960, against adnan menderes (who is, curiously and coincidentally, the first islamist leaning leader in turkish republic's history - the current islamist party comes from his party's roots). adnan menderes had increasingly become dictatorial in the late years of his reign -> he first censored all opposing papers, and then shut them down. then he shut down the opposition party. then his party moved to create a party organization called 'vatan cephesi' (motherland front) that you had to join. even so, they were naming people out of census registry in the radios each night, saying that these people joined the motherland front. situation was going out of hand. so, military intervened, and hanged the 3 political leaders of that party. that has set an example for all extremists in turkey -> they havent been able to find the courage to radically change the secular modern republic for 20 years.
in 1980, things were out of hand again. extremism was abound, and extreme right and left organizations were killing each other, bystanders, anyone daily. the daily average death toll in the country was 200. yea, you heard that right, 200 people a day.
politicians of the time were doing NOTHING. just bickering. a moderate party, an islamist party, a nationalist party, and a social democrat party. all bickering and nothing.
things were going this way for the last 5 years. and military was warning about deteriorating security situation within the country for those last 5 years.
all political leaders of that time were saying was 'it will be democratically solved, democracy is strong blah this bleh that'.
nothing happened. they did nothing.
and when in 1980, a huge throng of islamists have sat down during the national anthem and booed the national anthem in konya in 1980, declaring that they wanted an iranian style islamist government, within 2-3 weeks' time military had taken control of the country and locked up the extremist leaders, and put an interim government and called a group of experts to prepare a new constitution to prevent extremism from being able to change anything.
1982 constituton was put to vote of the people. people were SO fed up with extremism and the chaos environment that it got a whopping 80% approval rate and was ratified. this is the constitution we have today, and this is the constitution that islamist party is trying to change so they can move ahead with islamist proceedings.
just 1 years later, in 1983, elections were held and a technocrat, turgut ozal, a western style free market evangelist was elected with a whopping vote total. and he furthered the country until islamist elements got rise again.
so today here we are. the islamist party is trying to get rid of the elements in constitution that prevent them from establishing islamist and pro-religion laws, saying that 'it is the will of the people' (only 38% first election, only 42% last, a lot of reactionary votes and a lot of election fraud).
what is stupefying is that, european union SUPPORTS them. they are in the delusion that, if you let everything be in turkey, it will just become a country like belgium. but the last 40 years' history of turkey says otherwise.
the going is not good. it is a cosmic joke that european union is supporting and harboring a party that wants to break turkey from all modern values and enlightenment ideals. leave aside being contradictory, its self damaging.
Parent
Re:a mistake you have there (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I was led to understand that there is strong opposition in Turkey to the government interfering in matters of religion, but perhaps that is no longer the case for whatever reason...
For whatever reason? Have you been sleeping under a rock for the last 10 years? I guess you have, so let me get you up to speed: the majority in Turkey are conservative Muslims (of the 99.8% who are Muslim), and they can vote - and they have, indeed, voted in the traditionalist Muslim AKP that got 46.7% of the vote. The AKP had no problem forming a steamrolling government. The AKP has 340 out of 550 seats in parliament!
So that's your "whatever reason". The AKP govt. has been dismantling the pillars of turki
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Since 1924, the educated and westernized upper classes in Turkey have maintained a secular government. But with the increasing education and prosperity of the middle classes, that is changing. Most people in Turkey want a religious government, not a secular one. There is always an assumption that education and prosperity will give rise to a decline in religion
Reality knocks (Score:2, Insightful)
If you have followed events in Turkey this does not come as a surprise. Let's hope they will never be allowed to join the EU.
Re:Reality knocks (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's hope they change their ways so that we wish them to join the EU.
Parent
Re:Reality knocks (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's hope they change their ways so that we wish them to join the EU.
Like a German comedian of turkish descent once said:
What are you talking about? We're already here.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
It was only considered through political pressure from the UK, Spain, Poland, and US governments as a "reward" for Turkey's assistance in the Iraq War. Most other EU countries resisted Turkey's inclusion based on its appalling human rights record, and you know... geography...
heh they should jam all the religious nuts (Score:5, Funny)
on this bus [guim.co.uk]
fracking religion what good has it ever done
sigh
Re:heh they should jam all the religious nuts (Score:4, Informative)
btw the image is taken from this comment is free article [guardian.co.uk]
the article and the comments that followed make for an interesting sunday read
Parent
Thanks for the information (Score:2)
I followed the link you posted, those are truly interesting ideas they are raising.
The most interesting point someone raised was this: if religion gets so many subsidies and tax breaks, shouldn't atheist organizations be entitled to the same treatment?
Re: (Score:2)
In the UK, the British Humanist Association, the Richard Dawkins Foundation and others do have charitable status; the latter also having similar status in the US. So they are indeed subject to tax breaks.
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Then go to North korea, because you might think that all this is only due to religion. Look around.
Comparing North Korea and any of your other examples introduces far too many variables. Why not look at a study which keeps these factors constant by only comparing instances of creator-worship in western democracies [smh.com.au].
Re: (Score:2)
sometimes but not always sparing (*and* raping) young women.
what changed? now we have priests raping young boys
Read the books about what happened to the Romans they empire stretched the known world and culture that build great work, science that was ahead of their time, roads and aqueducts built, funny how their downfall came around the time the "church" came into existence and for the next 1000 years europe was plunged into a feudal dark age
Then go to America, look around.
american taliban [ucsd.edu]
The first well-kn
Why bans happen this much in Turkey (Score:5, Informative)
I'm from Turkey. As far as I know bans happen this way: If court decides that the content is illegal (attacking personal rights, advertising drugs etc.) they contact the owner of the site and demand the content to be removed. If the owner doesn't comply they ban the site. Previously bans happened by modifying DNS data of the de facto ISP monopoly in Turkey and redirecting sites to another page with legal information. This was easily circumvented by using another DNS. Then they started blocking IP addresses. Interesting thing is they don't block IP addresses of all banned sites. They only do this to popular sites and I believe courts are not deciding this. Someone outside courts decides that they must do IP blocking or not.
The law which orders bans also have a precaution clause which permits getting a site banned before court decides that the content is illegal or not. Bad guys uses this legal loophole to ban web sites easily.
YouTube is still banned in Turkey (Score:5, Informative)
Copyright infringement (Score:2, Informative)
Hi,
As far i know,this has nothing to do with religious or scientific matters.
Blogger was shut down due to copyright infrigement;Digiturk, a satellite tv provider, asked some blogs to remove their content but when this did not happen,they chose to shut down all the blogs.
Which is admittedly an idiotic move...
BTw,people please stop bringing up Eu at every subject about Turkey.
Bad Turkey, no EU for you! (Score:3, Insightful)
And there are people who still argue that Turkey should be allowed to join the EU. We have enough problems as is, let us not compound them by giving (more) religious zealots power in Europe.
Re: (Score:2)
Couple of points... (Score:2)
First of all, no one knows why the site was banned. The article admits it's pure speculation. Secondly, if the article's hypothesis is correct then unlike what some comments are suggesting, it was not to crackdown on anti-Islamic views but the exact opposite. A prominent Muslim creationist has apparently been promoting his views on Blogger so it's been banned, like other sites he posted on before. That's the theory.
And seriously, you're saying that Turkey shouldn't be allowed in the EU because it restricts
Culprit is found and... (Score:2, Informative)
Adnan Oktar/Harun Yayha (Score:3, Informative)
http://counterknowledge.com/?p=223 [counterknowledge.com]
http://counterknowledge.com/?p=157 [counterknowledge.com]
http://counterknowledge.com/?p=72 [counterknowledge.com]
He seems to have a stranglehold over the Turkish courts, and is gradually silencing any and all outlets of dissent under flawed defamation and libel law.
Reason of the ban... (Score:4, Informative)
The ban is not about Adnan Oktar or some religious subject but simply is about Digiturk which holds the right to broadcast the Turkish Football Super League.
Digiturk claims that the bloggers illegally streams the matches (you have to buy a receiver and a special card in order to view the Turkish Super League) from internet via their blogs.
Therefore they appeal to court and court bans the whole sites ending with ...blogspot.com abd blogger.com. Therefore the complete blogger has
been banned.
I admit that this is totally bullshit but not everything in Turkey is not about religion etc.
Best regards,
"anonymous coward".
As someone else mentioned (Score:5, Informative)
It's not a government ban, but actually caused vy a loophole in the law. (It has never been a government ban, nevertheless it's embarrassing).
*Any* court can order the ban of *any* website in Turkey. It only takes a single prosecutor deeming the case worthy, and a judge accepting it.
So for example, you can complain "google is infringing on my intellectual property", and if the prosecutor buys it, the judge can put in a preliminary motion to ban google. The ISPs can not do anything about it (except for going for an appeal).
The related law is being questioned, and will probably be replaced soon. (Hopefully).
Let's not argue... (Score:3, Insightful)
Good for Turkey. (Score:4, Funny)
Everyone is screaming censorship, but thats not it. They are saving themselves and the rest of the world. By Turkey not having access to blogger, all those people will no longer be made dumber by reading someones retarded online diary. The rest of the world will no longer have to be subjected to stupid blogs from Turkey.
No one has blocked the 3 blogs on the Internet that are actually useful, the other 4 billion useless online diaries will not be noticed when they disappear by anyone other than the emo that posts to them, and possibly a other emo's that cry with them after school.
We really do need to stop trying to shoehorn the censorship issue onto anything that we don't agree with. I can see how you might think this is censorship, but its not.
Nothing of value was lost in this ban, move on.
UPDATE ON BAN (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Surely the White House wouldn't refuse to give interviews because someone asks hard questions! Oh wait...