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Nielsen Sends Wikipedia DMCA Takedown For Station Descriptions
Posted by
timothy
on Sat Sep 20, 2008 07:12 PM
from the for-our-eyeballs-only dept.
from the for-our-eyeballs-only dept.
RockMFR writes "A DMCA takedown notice sent by Nielsen Media Research to the Wikimedia Foundation has resulted in the deletion of over 300 pages on the English Wikipedia. The pages were 'templates' and categories that listed television stations within various geographical markets in the United States. Discussion of the deletions has focused on whether this type of information can actually be copyrighted, though the content of the takedown notice have not been made public."
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Facts (Score:5, Insightful)
Formation of facts? (Score:5, Informative)
I believe that in some cases, however, compilations can. In that case - though I could be wrong - specific arrangement of facts could be considered copyrighted if it were copied verbatim, like OCR'ing a phonebook or something of the sort.
If memory serves cases have gone for and against this though, so it's not that clear-cut.
As noted on the admin page, "The entire categorization schema that was in place was copyrighted by Nielsen and could not be used under our GFDL license," so it wasn't just that the information was used, but that it was copied pretty much directly.
Parent
Re:Formation of facts? (Score:5, Insightful)
You are correct in that some compilations of facts are copyrightable as compilations, though that copyright does not extend to the facts within. However, like all copyrightable works, in order for a compilation to be copyrightable, it must be creative. In this case, the selection and arrangement of facts must be creative. Selecting all the facts, and arranging them in a pedestrian fashion would not qualify. This is why, for example, the white pages in phone books are not copyrightable: the selection is everyone with a listed number in the area covered, their names, their numbers, and their addresses, and the arrangement is alphabetical, by last name. It is the acme of an uncreative work. This is all discussed at length in the famous Feist decision by the Supreme Court; I'd suggest reading it. If it's uncopyrightable, verbatim copying is A-OK. There is absolutely no 'sweat of the brow' doctrine in the US.
A creative phone book would be one that didn't list everyone, and perhaps arranged them in some creative fashion. A listing of your favorite places to go, arranged by how much you like them, would probably qualify.
Whether the material at issue here is copyrightable or not, I couldn't venture an opinion, not having seen it.
Parent
Re:Formation of facts? (Score:5, Interesting)
They should also send a take down notice to another illicit site as well then.
I for one welcome any DCMA notices and other infringement notices be sent immediately to a near damn mirror.
It's practically un-american that anyone can access those same details via fcc.gov. Those weezles have been indexing this exact same information for ages under the pretense of "licensing."
In fact, I thought the details were rather verbatim so these two problem children probably get the warez from the same place.
Parent
Re:Formation of facts? (Score:5, Informative)
You might be thinking about the situation in Europe, where database compilations are copyrightable; but this doesn't apply in the US.
Parent
Re:Formation of facts? (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
.
But how Nielsen organizes and interprets those facts may be. How it defines a broadcast market. How it defines a station's target audience.
The advertiser wants to know which FM stations own the drive time market in Miami. He doesn't give a damn if they have an out-of-town zip code.
Re:Facts (Score:5, Informative)
But how Nielsen organizes and interprets those facts may be. How it defines a broadcast market. How it defines a station's target audience.
The only thing that Nielsen "defines" in this case is their own name for the DMA. The FCC defines the DMAs.
Nielsen does have extra groupings and organizations of stations that cross DMAs, but AFAIK, those weren't part of Wikipedia.
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Informative)
- Unnecessary (attacking non-threats)
- Invalid (as per your statement)
- Bullying (of organisations that couldn't afford to pay a lawyer to have the (generally absurd) accusations overturned)
There's a few instances where their use actually resembles something legitimate, but most of the time they appear in the hands of large companies when the cause is unjust, absurd, etc. I would therefore posit a connection between DMCA usage and illegitimacy and/or stupidity of a complaint.
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably because they basically give out a power of injunction to a copyright owner, over a third party(an isp is a common receiver), without any kind of judicial review.
The fact that they aren't systematically contested in court cannot help, but on the other hand, that might be a design goal...
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:4, Informative)
No. Website owners are free to ignore DMCA take down notices and there are no penalties for ignoring them... they are not injunctions.
If a website owner ignores a DMCA take down notice then the issuer has to take legal action to get a judge to issue an injunction.
Wikipedia and most other website owners will comply with a DMCA notice regardless of whether or not it is valid because they don't care and is the simplest thing to do.
Parent
Compliance brings benefits (Score:5, Informative)
> Wikipedia and most other website owners will comply with a DMCA notice
> regardless of whether or not it is valid because they don't care
> and is the simplest thing to do.
No, they will comply because doing so gives them, via other provisions of the DMCA, a modicum of immunity to monetary liability for copyright infringement.
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Insightful)
If an ISP / site ignores a takedown notice they lose immunity for copyright violations. Since ISPs generally have fairly deep pockets, the risk is WAY too great. They don't dare - the legal / monetary risk is way too great.
Their insurance companies may ALSO require that they comply with takedown notices.
Note that if a site ignores a takedown notice, the person may just go upstream to their ISP and issue one there which can cause even LARGER danger / damage to the site. So they too will comply.
Parent
Re:Failure to differentiate patents from copywrite (Score:5, Informative)
lets add a fifth category. failure to differentiate between copywrite and copyright. I suggest reading this article. [uncyclopedia.org]
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Insightful)
You are both right... but DustyShadow, you forget... you do not have to own a copyright in order to issue a DMCA takedown notice (you only need to own a copyright for it to be a valid DMCA takedown notice).
Yeah, you are supposed to own the copyright (or legally represent the owners for such matters, etc)... but big companies play this game quite often - and if fought, turn around with a "we're sorry" and never get penalized.
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Interesting)
Isn't there some potential penalty for issuing invalid DMCA takedown notices (even if it's never enforced)? I could swear there was some talk of legal action against the recent Scientology Youtube DMCA notices...
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Informative)
It is a federal perjury charge, which is rarely prosecuted by the DoJ. The maximum penalty is five years in prison. Perjury is usually added to existing charges or used as a stick to elicit testimony. The DoJ does not have enough resources to investigate and prosecute cases. The exception is perjruy in grand jury or court proceedings, where the rate of prosecution is high unless the person is already serving a term in prison or has cooperated with the government.
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Informative)
You can't fit the company in prison
Only a person can commit perjury. Either an agent or employee makes the sworn statement against perjury.
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Funny)
Valid? DMCA notice?!?!?
I'd like to see that!
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Interesting)
Hosting company owner here and yeah that happens. Frankly I'd consider it a violation of their privacy to post the letters, responses, and the resulting excuses and wondering why we booted them off their respective servers for violating copyright laws. No, no... You can't upload the latest movie to our servers and expect to get away with it if you're caught. We don't LOOK for them but we have to take them down if you're dumb enough to let people know it is there in a public forum or the likes.
Side note... We do, or at least have, historically stood up in one instance. There was (is) a site that contains a bunch of Albanian movies. He links to them or even hosts them. *BEFORE* coming and just randomly paying he asked if it would be okay. He stated clearly that during the time of production these films were made under a communist government. That meant, to him, that those films belonged to the people. As such they were protected from copyright. We agreed. We've fielded a few requests to remove a few and asked about the creation dates. In all instances he was right, they were wrong, we left them online. He hasn't had a problem request in years which is kind of cool because it means that the point got across. Paid for by the people and belonging to the people.
Parent
Re:Facts (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately the second part is rarely if ever applied which is why we have the situations we do now. If even one major organization was forced to play the massive fines they are supposed to, it would be the end of frequent applications.
Parent
Spineless? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's called the law. If you get a takedown notice you HAVE to comply. If someone files a counterclaim the information can be put back up.
Re:Spineless? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Spineless? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, that was in Lenz v. Universal [eff.org].
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
if you want safe-harbor, and wikipedia does, then you comply. if wikipedia doesnt comply, it loses safe-harbor for a lot more than a claim from a statistics company. DMCA takedown notices being used more often than cease and desist letters (nearly functional equivalents), is in my opinion, better. a cease and desist letter doesnt grant amnesty to wikipedia or youtube or whomever for having the content as long as they comply. i would say DMCA takedown notices are more of a legal compromise tactic than a thre
Re:Spineless? (Score:5, Interesting)
I suspect you're trolling but I'll bite. There's nothing stopping wikipedia from trying to verify that the takedown notice is legit *before* removing the info.
"We received your request to takedown [list of pages] that you allege fall under your copyright.
We comply with all valid DMCA notices. Before we comply, you must provide proof, in writing, that demonstrates both
A) That this material is copyrighted
B) That you are the copyright holder.
We need that information to combat frivolous and questionable takedown notices. Please provide the above information by [date 30 days in the future] to avoid the legal action we take against persons who send us baseless threats
Thank you very much
[Name here]"
Parent
Re:Spineless? (Score:5, Interesting)
The DMCA should be abolished I have never seen a legitimate use for it. There is something terribly wrong with our system that we even allow automated censorship to be apart of our society.
Parent
False or fraudulent takedown notices (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, the ability to force someone to cease speech on simple "say-so", without ever having visited court first, should never have become law in the first place. I believe DMCA takedown notices will eventually be determined to be a classic case of unbridled "prior restraint".
Re:False or fraudulent takedown notices (Score:5, Informative)
I believe DMCA takedown notices will eventually be determined to be a classic case of unbridled "prior restraint"
Of course, I think they should be done away with, because they are far too easily abusable - but I don't think the courts will ever consider them as "prior restraint" - because the content has to already be somewhere for a DMCA notice to be issued.
Say, hypothetically, that I took a paper you wrote and posted it on my blog. You issue a DMCA takedown notice - but I've already posted it, otherwise you wouldn't have even known I had it.
If you could send me a DMCA to prevent me from putting anything up in the first place, that would be prior restraint. As I understand it, though, that's not how they work.
Parent
Re:Good point (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether Nielsen is a governmental entity or not is quite irrelevant here. The DMCA notice being used to restrain free speech takes its power from the threat of legal penalty which would be inflicted by the government.
Now it may be true that this notice isn't valid, and therefore doesn't have the actual force of the government behind it (the article is sort of short on details there so I don't know), but the fact that the DMCA is constructed such that companies have every incentive to obey take down notices whether valid or not means that the law, and hence the government is responsible for the restraint of free speech, at least indirectly.
Parent
Re:False or fraudulent takedown notices (Score:5, Informative)
It is a criminal offence.
The notice contains the following statement:
"I hereby certify under penalty of perjury that the information in this notice is accurate and that I am authorized to act on behalf of $copyrightholder, the copyright owner of the intellectual property rights. I have a good faith belief that none of the materials or activities listed above have been authorized by $copyrightholder, its agents, or the law."
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"Oh yeah, there's also the fact that the law states that a counter-notification to restore the material must be sworn under penalty of perjury, unlike the original takedown notice, which just needs to be a good-faith attempt, with no criminal penalty for falsehood."
This is...how do you say?...not true. Both the takedown notice AND the counter-notice need to be sworn to.
From the US Code, Title 17, Chapter 5, Section 512, Paragraph (c) Subsection (3) "Elements of notification":
(A) To be effective under this
Thanks, irresponsible modder! (Score:3, Informative)
From TFA (Score:5, Informative)
The entire categorization schema that was in place was copyrighted by Nielsen and could not be used under our GFDL license.
the DMCA notice included at least the use of Nielsen's 'Designated Market Area' (DMA) classification system. As our Media market article says, Nielsen coined the term and holds a trademark on it. The takedown notice may have included more, but I think it is fairly clear that much at least was an issue. Hence
It looks like they used a categorizing scheme originally produced and copyrighted by Nielsen, which could warrant a legit takedown request - the complete takedown of the pages (especially such a large number of them), however, seems to be overkill.
That you can get a copyright on something like that, to me, seems ridiculous, but then again, I don't make money by selling people their own production numbers back to them.
One has been undeleted (Score:5, Informative)
Apparently Toledo TV [wikipedia.org] has been undeleted. (Mirror [uberm00.net] in case it goes again.)
How in God's name is an association of TV station titles to markets in which they can be received copyrightable?
It's a clean remake (Score:5, Informative)
The Google Cache [209.85.165.104] is different, at least for now. The key difference: The words "Nielson DMA#."
The Internet Archive also has older versions [archive.org].
Parent
it's more than that (Score:4, Insightful)
We don't know the whole story but this much is being guessed about:
Nielson divides the country into "Market areas" some of which are stand-alone metro areas and some of which are combinations of cities which may contain "creative content." For example, if the metro areas A, B, C, and D are in close proximity, you can combine them in dozens of ways, ranging from lumping them all together into 1 market area, having 4 separate market areas, or one of several combinations of 2 or 3 market areas. Doing this across the country creates a list which is potentially copyrightable because it contains the creative thought that went into deciding just where to combine the metro areas into the market areas.
Parent
Two can play at this game (Score:5, Interesting)
They also mailed me a survey when I bought a new car. My prize was 'a chance' to win some petrol. An hour of my time for 'a chance'. They seem to have an inflated view of their own self-worth.
In this episode: A marketing research company learns about public relations.
Re:Two can play at this game (Score:4, Insightful)
You'll just get Firefly canceled.
Parent
Re:Two can play at this game (Score:4, Funny)
True story - I was at a movie theater seeing "Get Smart", and noticed Nielsen researchers at the theater handing out surveys. I walked up to one, and exclaimed:
"You bastards! You killed Firefly!"
Parent
Did not RTFA... are they sending a DCMA to the FCC (Score:4, Interesting)
Idiots. (Score:5, Funny)
I have one thing to say to the dumbasses that filed this DMCA notice:
09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0
Now I'm Worried (Score:5, Interesting)
This DMCA notice now makes me worry about my own site. It uses the same list, which is in fact the same list the FCC uses in its own rules and regulations. I've started investigating alternative listing methods, but none of them make sense because they all organize their "target city" by DMA! Listing by state is stupid because a station in New Jersey always targets New York or Philadelphia. Without being able to use the Nielsen DMA, the whole system of listing stations goes to hell.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the FCC making rules that cannot be read because some company has a copyright on it. Examples:
When digital TV stations were signing on, the FCC said commercial stations in the top 100 markets have to be on the air by 05/01/2002. If you don't have permission to look at Nielsen's "copyrighted" list, then how would a station be able to know what market they're in? Not every station is subscribed to Nielsen's data.
In 47CFR73.622(f)(5), the FCC lists an exception that allows stations to expand coverage to match "the largest station in the market." How do you know which stations are in your market if you're not allowed to look at Nielsen's market boundaries?
This whole thing rubs me the wrong way, and makes me nervous.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There's precedent with building codes. They're both law and copyrighted. And building codes aren't an obscure part of law - you essentially cannot get a permit to build anything without you (or your contractor) knowing the building code).
The American Senate is completely bought! (Score:3, Interesting)
This only demonstrates to me that laws such as the DMCA (given their extremely wide scope and the relative inability of any USian citizen to challenge a (good or bad) takedown notice without spending a fortune on lawyers and court fees) could only have been passed by a body that only has the interests of commercial corporations at heart.
Surely information such as the reception range of various television stations quite rightly is public information.
DMCA notices shouldn't have been needed for this. Simply going in and making the requisite modifications, or asserting that certain information is copyrighted, and then citing proof of copyright should have been all that is required.
And besides that, isn't the Neilson corporation about producing viewer statistics not about regulating the reception areas of the transmitters for various television stations?
What Nielsen appears to be saying. (Score:5, Informative)
OK, having actually READ TFA and some other postings about this topic, here's what this appears to be about.
Wikipedia wanted to list all the TV stations for each major television market.
But how do you define what stations are in a given "market"? For example, does the "New York City" market area include Newark, NJ? What about Trenton, NJ? Does it extend into Connecticut? If so, how far?
Ultimately, the way you group a set of locations into regions is somewhat arbitrary, and there are a lot of ways to do it. For example, the US Census Bureau has one set of metropolitan areas they use to report major statistics. Nielsen has their own grouping of cities (and therefore stations located in those cities) into markets.
Nielsen's grouping is not identical to other public groupings like the US Census bureau's. It's what they feel are the appropriate groupings for television advertising marketing, since that's who their customers are. And they put work into developing and refining their classification scheme.
What appears to have happened is that Wikipedia wanted to list television station, and wanted to organize that list of stations by Nielsen market area. Heck, take a look at the delete log in the original post--they were even calling their organization "Nielsen markets."
Nielsen's position, as I understand it, is that Nielsen's mapping of cities (and therefore stations) into markets is their own unique work, which is not public domain, and it's not OK for Wikipedia to use Nielsen's mappings without their permission. If Wikipedia had used a different organizational scheme for the same data (e.g. US Census metro areas), Nielsen likely wouldn't have had an issue with it.
Please note I'm not trying to play apologist for Nielsen or the DCMA here--I'm not a huge fan of the DCMA or US definitions on what's "copyrightable." However, I do prefer looking at a case on it's individual merits to knee jerk "anyone using the DCMA must be evil!" arguments.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)