Slashdot Log In
The Electronic Bastille
Posted by
timothy
on Fri Sep 05, 2008 03:19 AM
from the panoptiquonnes dept.
from the panoptiquonnes dept.
smooth wombat writes "Imagine a database whose aim is to centralize and analyze data on people aged 13 or above who are active in politics or labor unions, who play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role, or who are 'likely to breach public order.' At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation which is implementing this database. Specifically, France. Now, with the summer break over and as the people of France return to work, there is a small but growing movement to storm this electronic Bastille. Michel Pezet, a lawyer and former member of a body charged with protecting French citizens from electronic prying, had this to say about this new data-gathering law: 'The Edvige database has no place in a democracy. There is nothing in the decree that sets limits or a framework. Whether the database is used with or without moderation depends only on orders from up high. The electronic Bastille is upon us.'"
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Probably not a first (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd be shocked if other Western governments, or at least their security services, didn't do something similar. The CIA and MI5 have been known to do this sort of thing in the past, especially during WWII and the cold war. At least the French know about theirs.
In Britain they can take and keep your DNA if you're suspected of a crime, even if you've been acquitted. Many suspect this is why there were so many accusations of breaches of public order at this year's Notting Hill; the Met wanted the DNA of black Londoners.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah but only in France are the DBA's going to the guillotine.
Re:Probably not a first (Score:5, Funny)
Like "TRUNCATE `admin`;" perhaps?
Parent
Re:Probably not a first (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, protests are two edged swords. If protests are too loud, this file will still exist, in a concealed way, if it is not loud enough, it will be abused. I'm going to the big protest in October but at least, I must admit that admitting the existence of this file was a very positive step.
Parent
Re:Probably not a first (Score:5, Informative)
Not my CIA and FBI, I'm British. :p
Interesting reply. It's nice to get this sort of thing out in the open, but the case of the British DNA database has left me feeling somewhat powerless in the grasp of an over-zealous-yet-strangely-ineffective police state (introduced by our country's socialists, I hasten to add, before people start trying to blame the right).
Parent
Re:Probably not a first (Score:5, Insightful)
introduced by our country's socialists, I hasten to add, before people start trying to blame the right
Are you saying that the Lib Dems are the puppet-master which is really responsible for Labour's legislative output?
Parent
Re:Probably not a first (Score:4, Interesting)
I wish New Labour would stop giving the left a bad name. Check the political compass [politicalcompass.org], Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are about as left wing as Margaret Thatcher.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
an over-zealous-yet-strangely-ineffective police state (introduced by our country's socialists, I hasten to add, before people start trying to blame the right).
It should be pointed out here for those who are not from the UK, that while the Labour party has historically been broadly socialist, their policies have been drifting to the right for some time and they haven't really been socialists for at least 15 years.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I believe our anonymous comrade's point was that the relationship New Labour have with socialism is that they mention it in their constitution. The idiom is akin to "chocolate is to dieting as water is to fire-starting". Or "Darling is to fiscal prudence as Thatcher was to industrial relations".
Re:Probably not a first (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What a lot of people suspect and what some anonymous sources acknowledge is that edvige is not something new, it is an old illegal and hidden practice that they are trying to make more transparent and legal. [...] I'm going to the big protest in October but at least, I must admit that admitting the existence of this file was a very positive step.
It does indeed seem that this is nothing more than the opening to a larger audience (of police forces) of the existing DCRI [wikipedia.org] (a mix of the two former intelligence agencies) database. This includes some rather detailed stuff on anyone who has had any kind of political / syndicate activity, etc.
It's probably better if it's in the open but safeguards on its use would be very welcome as well.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What a lot of people suspect and what some anonymous sources acknowledge is that edvige is not something new, it is an old illegal and hidden practice that they are trying to make more transparent and legal.
The RG (Renseignements Généraux) database was neither illegal or hidden practice. Edvige is the old RG database + under 16 people + the right to record sexual orientation (why they need that?).
The big problems with edvige are:
- the records are potentially never deleted,
- acces control (the database is available for consultation with minimal control to any police officer)
When I was 16, the pastor of my parents inform my mother that there was a note about me at gendarmerie
Yeah, I have had similar thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)
The way I see it surveillance and universal identity databases etc are inevitable products of modern technology coupled with human nature. It isn't something we can just close the door on and expect the result to be that such things will simply go away.
It seems more like a choice between acknowledging that we WILL be surveilled, and that there WILL be such databases or sticking our heads in the sand and denying it. Thus two potential situations can arise. Either the surveillance and data acquisition are sur
Re:Probably not a first (Score:5, Insightful)
This is already quite widespread. Here in Sydney, Australia, I talked to an ASIO officer who openly admitted he was 'gathering data on activists'. He was walking around at a demo, with a digital video player and a notebook & pen, and interviewing people ( not telling them who he was ). I've also seen evidence that this data was then used to target individuals.
To those who mindlessly parrot the old "if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about", I have 2 responses ( well I have more, but 2 will do for now )
1) The individuals targeted ( who were friends and comrades ) were violently attacked by riot police at a subsequent demonstration. They were arrested, roughed up, and released without charge. One was so shaken up by the experience that she pulled out of activism ( for 6 months anyway ).
2) There's a difference between what's "wrong" and what's technically against the law. There are such things as bad laws. Here in Australia, we have some VERY bad laws. There are a group of a hundred or so builders who are facing losing their homes for not being able to pay fines imposed because they had the 'audacity' to protest over unsafe working conditions, and the high number of deaths in their industry. Sounds like a valid reason to be protesting to me ... but illegal.
Parent
Re:Probably not a first (Score:4, Interesting)
In short, our activists of today are our government of tomorrow.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Which simply leaves them in a better position to understand the weaknesses of the new activists, and crush them to prevent a repeat of history.
That's why most forms of activism are no longer a viable means to change things -- the government has adapted to the tactics.
Re:Probably not a first (Score:4, Insightful)
I must regretfully conclude you believed this shit without ever researching it.
If I am wrong, point it out. However,I would like documentation and citations please. Not random newspaper reports.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And they can move relative easily in a crowd which a car can not. And the policemen riding a horse have a nice view over the crowd. And they can't be easily attacked from below. And. And. And.
Re:Probably not a first (Score:5, Informative)
Except that in France, we have an established institution (ssince 1978) , the Commission Nationale Informatique et Libertés (Nat. Commission Coputers and Liberties, note the meaning plurial), that cannot be overruled by the State.
In fact, it is more than probable that Edvige wouldn't be accepted in front of the State Council. Or the European Commission.
Parent
Re:Probably not a first (Score:4, Informative)
Well the CNIL is good and all, but they really have no power whatsoever in this case.
The law from August 2004 (modifying the Loi Informatique et Libertés from 1978) states that public administrations and organisms will not need the CNIL's authorization anymore in order to create precisely such files. Private enterprises and such still need it.
What's more, the 2004 law is an adaptation of a EU directive to the French LIL laws. So basically, I have no doubts it would be accepted by the EU Commission. It's up to us now...
Parent
Re:Probably not a first (Score:5, Interesting)
You can have a tax number, a social security number, an ID card, a driver's license, etc, but those numbers cannot be mixed in a bigger database. That was the original intent anyway, and it did prevent a lot of abuse. It was a good law while it lasted. Sob.
Parent
Private enterprise is so much more efficient (Score:5, Insightful)
If they were the US, they'd just license it from Google [tinyurl.com].
(If they were the UK, they'd probably license it from Microsoft.)
Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah. In the UK we pay EDS an outrageous amount of money to fuck it up, then get something 10 years late and 20 times over budget.
The only positive thing about UK ID card scheme is that the companies tasked with implementing the database couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery. If it was ever going to work I would be scared.
Parent
Re:Private enterprise is so much more efficient (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah. In the UK we pay EDS an outrageous amount of money to fuck it up, then get something 10 years late and 20 times over budget.
I strongly disagree with this. There is no evidence that EDS have ever managed to deliver a product, even 10 years late. They keep getting government contracts though, because they have lots of experience with government contracts. I'm still in two minds about this. On the one hand, I don't like to see the government wasting so much money. On the other hand, I don't like to see the government being too efficient. Personally, I'd like to see the EU establish a BuSab [wikipedia.org] to take care of this kind of thing.
Parent
Sounds good (Score:3, Insightful)
People who are "active in politics... play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role... 'likely to breach public order.'"?
So that would be a database of politicians, CEOs and cult leaders then? So long as this database is freely accessible to all on the net, it sounds like a great idea to me.
Re:Sounds good (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Not just the original person but all friends. (Score:5, Informative)
The information stored will contain "civil status and occupation; physical addresses, phone numbers, email addresses; physical characteristics, photographs and behaviour; identity papers; car plate numbers; fiscal and patrimonial information; moves and legal history"
Re:Not just the original person but all friends. (Score:4, Interesting)
Various social critics in the tradition of Focault (Michel, not Leon) have been predicting this kind of thing for years.
Starting more or less from first principles, they predicted that attempts to collect information on private individuals will tend to expand regardless of how useless or even counterproductive those efforts are. These kinds of things only stop growing when they get large enough to encounter some practical limitation. It might be budget, it might be technology, or it might even be people taking to the streets to protest.
Parent
Anglo-French rivalry at its best (Score:5, Funny)
For years now the UK has been leader in the "Western Nation Most Likely To Become A Police State" league, and the French just can't bear to be beaten by us at anything, so in one daring move they've grabbed the crown from us. Vive la France!
The French Point of view. (Score:3, Insightful)
In fact, French police already had such files for decades (aka "le fichier des RG", the file of the inside information gathering service), but they were "secret", and it was impossible for people to know exactly what kind of information was recorded.
Then, are files of this kind of files usefull or good for Democracies ... ? usefull maybe (You never watch The Experts or NCIS ? ;) . Good ? I dont know (1984, Equilibrium, ... what else ?)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I do indeed watch NCIS, and as much as I enjoy the show, the way it glorifies both huge databases with everything you ever wanted to know about everybody but were afraid to ask, as well as agencies blatantly overstepping their jurisdictions, perform searches without warrants etc, bothers me quite a lot.
It's fictional. I'm sure there's plenty of good people in law enforcement fighting the good fight and struggling against pesky regulations, but all it takes is one asshat abusing the information he has at his
Truth: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Truth: (Score:5, Interesting)
Public order is antithetical to democracy.
That is manifestly untrue.
What you mean is probably that public order is antithetical to freedom; which is still a rather dubious statement. Democracy is not some magical substance that guarantees freedom or anything else - it is only a form of government that allows part of the citizens a measure of influence on the government's decision making. It is perfectly possible to imagine a democratic society where everybody is happy and feels no need for unrest. Democracy was not introduced because it looked like a bloody good idea at the time - it was introduced because it was hoped that it would help solve the problems with unrest caused by the government not representing the people.
Parent
Almost like... (Score:3, Funny)
mission creep (Score:5, Funny)
Dear World,
Please stop giving our government these ideas.
Thanks,
USA
Thank God (Score:5, Funny)
I live in the UK where we don't stand for this kind of nonsense.
Re:Sorry... (Score:5, Insightful)
To be honest if there's one country I'd expect to actually get out of their chairs and protest in the streets over this, it's the french.
Parent
Re:Sorry... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Sorry... (Score:5, Insightful)
Beats raising the remote from a seated position on the couch, I'd say.
Parent
Re:Sorry... (Score:4, Informative)
That would be the Parisians. But the French fishermen would blockade the harbours [independent.co.uk], the French truckers would blockade the ferry ports [bbc.co.uk] and oil refineries [greenspun.com], while the French farmers will blockade strategic locations such as the trains [nytimes.com], the tunnels [bbc.co.uk], and Disneyland [highbeam.com].
Parent
Re:Sorry... (Score:5, Funny)
Nos trois principes sont Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite.
Je m'excuse, nos quatre principes sont Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, et d'etre surveille.
Entre nos principes sont...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Et uniformes rouges interessants
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Nope, french people (I am one) are more willing to strike for salaries, work week duration, educational strategic changes, be paid for 15 month per year (in the Lyon public transport company) than protesting against our world record taxes on gasoline (> 80% +19.6% VAT !!!), or against our entire population filled into a database we don't know wich it will be used for.
That's it : we know, but consequences are obscure for everybody (specialized lawyers included) who don't work in government.
Moreover, the m
Re:Convincing politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
Thinking without a head is pretty difficult, I'd say.
Would it make that much difference to a politician ?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sorry... (Score:4, Informative)
Where did you get your statistics ? The public sector employs a lot of people in France but not 50%. A comprehensive citizen watch [ifrap.org] organisation puts the figure at 26%, i.e. 7 million people. This includes ordinary civil servants working for one part or another of government, but also scientific researchers, teachers, and employees of public companies like Electricite de France, the Parisian Metro, and so on.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You know what AC? /me puts arm round AC's shoulders like a father explaining something to an over-enthusiastic, ignorant son.
If any of your ancestors are English, there's a good chance that you are French, or have some French blood running through your veins.
Ever heard of the Battle of Hastings in 1066? Where those 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' sucessfully invaded England. Or the Hundred Years War, where the Frenchmen who originally invaded England got nostalgic for their old lands, decided the food in
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Nah, didn't think so.