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China to Regulate Internet Map Publishing

Posted by timothy on Tue May 13, 2008 09:07 AM
from the emblematic dept.
hackingbear writes "After text, pictures, and videos, China starts regulating Internet map publishing (here is the google translation.) The government believes that Internet maps can represent the state's sovereignty and its political and diplomatic positions in the international community — and consequently, inaccurate maps could harm national interests and dignity, produce bad political influences, reveal national secrets and harm national security, in addition to harming consumer interests. So from now on, publishing maps would require approval and (yet another) license from the state survey bureau. That means Google, Yahoo, etc., need to remove China from the map; or maybe they just pay up some officials and their agents to acquire yet another license. And our newest 80Gbps DPI monsters need to be upgraded to identify maps together with porn."
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  • by Anonymous Coward
    priceless!
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Alternatively, Google et al could highlight Tibet (imperial pink, perhaps?) and tell Hu Da Fuk and all his friends where to get off.

      Anyone who even slightly agrees with this measure is a pawn of the fascists, and would be better off sharing a forum with Gordon Brown and Georgie boy.

      • by cayenne8 (626475) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:27AM (#23390842) Homepage Journal
        I know China is potentially representing a LOT of money. But, at some point, don't we just say "Fuck China"...and all the rules and regulations and monitoring they are wanting to impose on a system that has worked just fine without them for decades?

        If they want to wall off themselves from the world, then let them. If they don't want to use what a company from another country is doing, fine just block it if you want to (or can) but, quit bitching about everything we free people do outside your fucking borders.

        • by denis-The-menace (471988) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:45AM (#23391024)
          They want to kinda wall themselves from the world but still be part of it.

          If we had governments representing people, then the UN would would have told China to where to go a long time ago and China would have become something Cuba could laugh at.

          But instead, we have governments representing corporations. (we elect them but the corps control them) To ignore china because of their fascist ways is not good for the corporate bottom line and the CEO's annual bonus. So the corps will bend and jump through hoops until they control China as well. When that happens, we will have become Star Trek's Ferengi race. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi)
            • by cayenne8 (626475) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @12:21PM (#23392772) Homepage Journal
              "China has resources we need if we are to have the standard if living "we" want. (and by we I mean first and foremost you and myself)"

              Actually, they (along with India) are rapidly sucking up resources we need...mainly, oil.

              We are having to compete with them on this, and I think this will soon get nasty. China holds so much of our debt (US), that they will likely start using this as leverage against us in oil concerns.

              Frankly, I'd like to get off China's 'teet' with regard to the resources I think you're alluding to...cheap labor.

              I'm quite worried about not having any more manufacturing in the US any longer. That is a national security issues if I've ever heard one. It matters not if we have all the energy needs we need...if our suppliers of goods cut us off...we're toast.

              As another poster mentioned...I'd gladly start paying 10%-20% more for most of my goods if they were made/raised in the US. I'd much rather pay a bit of a premium to support the local manufacturer and local food grower. I'm lucky that I live in LA, where we get such an abundance of fresh seafood from the Gulf....but, when I travel the US, I'm shocked to see how muchh seafood and other animal protein foods are coming in from China, or other countries, rather than our own, where we often have higher quality, and regulations on anti-biotics, drugs and pesticides that can be used.

              But...that's a whole other rant....

                    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

                      If you think it's bad in the US, then don't look at EU countries. It can be much worse.

                      Minimum wage in EU is about 15$/hour I believe. Anything that is worth less than that does ... not get done.
        • by gnick (1211984) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:45AM (#23391034) Homepage

          ...quit bitching about everything we free people do outside your fucking borders.
          I don't remotely support the way China's oppressing their people, but criticizing this move as "outside your fucking borders" is off-base. They're restricting what comes into their country, just like almost every country in the world does. If you live somewhere with no copyright laws, start hosting movies that can be downloaded in the U.S. and see if it goes ignored. The only difference is that China is even more oppressive and aggressive than the MPAA and their goal is to enslave their citizens, not just suck them dry.
          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            their goal is to enslave their citizens, not just suck them dry.

            because citizens with no property still have rights in this society? Like what? The right to spend every waking hour searching for a new boss until they starve to death?

            Poverty and slavery are effectively the same thing, except the slave tends to be better off because he's valuable property and thus can't simply be left to die even if he becomes temporarily redundant. On the otherhand the temporarily redundant laborer in a society without slavery is for all free market purposes, worthless. He can't buy an

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          The Chinese, like the Americans, have sovereignity over their borders. That Americans (I'm one) wait for the Google truck to moon it and don't care, they also present images that are sometimes not very pretty.

          US freedom and liberty gives the Google video truck the right to drive down any public byway and video what they see, 24/7. Other countries can alter what they want the truck to do, and what is public versus private versus secret information at their will.

          If mapping is good, then it won't take long bef
              • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                Your xenophobia towards China seems to give your righteousness the same fervor of the people you condemn. You've tried them, found them guilty, and now you intend to vanquish them, all in one fell swoop. Step back for a moment.

                Revisit and understand history not only of China, but other nations including our own. This is not to justify actions that various Chinese governments have taken, rather to put them into perspective. I've been to China on several occasions, and while there is oppression, and lack of f
                  • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                    You share a commonality with every other American-- that our politicians don't fully represent our views. They can't as they're only 549 of them, and several hundred million of us.

                    Yes, the Chinese censor the Internet. This is one of the smaller of their displeasing behaviors. Censorship is almost always a bad thing, except when the sensibilities of children are at stake.

                    The slumbering dragon slowly awakes after many years of dark ages. Their rulers are inexperienced, and their political system isn't as evol
        • by zappepcs (820751) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @10:10AM (#23391304) Journal
          Except, there is possibly different ways to say 'Fuck China':

          1) Publish and push data all the way into their living rooms until they cut off the Internet for their people completely.

          2) Publish in a flippant way: publish maps but when it comes to China put a graphic that says sensored by assholes in China.

          3) Publish a website that shows ALL the stuff that China does not want their citizens to see/read/hear so that the entire rest of the world can see/read/hear it and know what Chinese government types have censored from their own people.

          4) invite the Chinese government to come make the rest of the world sensor material for their benefit. I'm not saying war is good, but if you intend to tell them to fuck off they will either hide behind the wall or respond to that message.

          Personally, I believe that no one should be buying ANYTHING made in China. Yes, I know it's next to impossible but I would spend an extra 10% to support companies from my country that make competing products to Chinese products.

          The entire China issue is completely out of hand, and the best way IMO to stop it is to stop dealing with them. Stop buying from them. Stop selling to them. Do not go to the Olympics either. Don't watch the Olympics. In fact, I say we censor China altogether from the world's information, business dealings etc. Don't let them invest in anything anywhere else in the world. Lock up their assets that reside outside of China, close their Embassies... everything.

          Yes, that will eventually hurt their people but it is their people that must overthrow the government in charge at this point.
          • So let me get this straight. Your idea of promoting an encouraging openness (which you and I agree is a good thing) is by completely shutting down China.

            That doesn't make much sense to me. I think if you spent even 20 minutes reading about Chinese history in the last century you would be far less ignorant of world affairs and specifically Chinese affairs. I am in no way defending totalitarianism or censorship. I just want to point out how rediculous your "solution" sounds.

            If you actually load up wikipedia a
          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            Except, there is possibly different ways to say 'Fuck China': 1) Publish and push data all the way into their living rooms until they cut off the Internet for their people completely.

            By spamming?

            2) Publish in a flippant way: publish maps but when it comes to China put a graphic that says sensored by assholes in China.

            Are you sure Chinese care about your content? Remember, you must publish it in Chinese.

            3) Publish a website that shows ALL the stuff that China does not want their citizens to see/read/hear so that the entire rest of the world can see/read/hear it and know what Chinese government types have censored from their own people.

            Are you sure Chinese care?

            4) invite the Chinese government to come make the rest of the world sensor material for their benefit. I'm not saying war is good, but if you intend to tell them to fuck off they will either hide behind the wall or respond to that message.

            Are you sure they care?

            Personally, I believe that no one should be buying ANYTHING made in China. Yes, I know it's next to impossible but I would spend an extra 10% to support companies from my country that make competing products to Chinese products.

            Go ahead.

            The entire China issue is completely out of hand, and the best way IMO to stop it is to stop dealing with them. Stop buying from them. Stop selling to them. Do not go to the Olympics either. Don't watch the Olympics. In fact, I say we censor China altogether from the world's information, business dealings etc. Don't let them invest in anything anywhere else in the world. Lock up their assets that reside outside of China, close their Embassies... everything.

            Wet dreams. This never worked on a country with more than 1 billion people. BTW, do you ever realize how much US assets in China?

            Yes, that will eventually hurt their people but it is their people that must overthrow the government in charge at this point.

            You are very smart at this point, but if their people rise up and overthrow your government...

            BTW, when you guys are discussing wet dreams, Chinese are fighting a fscking earth quake, I hope you realiz

  • So from now on, publishing maps would require approval and (yet another) license from the state survey bureau


    Can a country do this? Why are on-line maps different from printed maps? Seems a bit unlikely to me.

    inaccurate maps could harm national interests and dignity


    As Google maps are satellite based, how inaccurate can they be?
    • by Serapth (643581) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:17AM (#23390708)
      Can a country do this?

      Well, considering the Dick Cheney had his house obscured... I suppose the answer is yes. Actually with Google maps the US government has a number of areas blacked out for security reasons.
      • by junglee_iitk (651040) * on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:21AM (#23390762)
        Actually, it was possible in US because Google is US based.

        China will be able to pull this off only because Google wants to do business there.

        Let this be a reason for those who talk about "do no evil" and "Google" in same sentence (except me :) ), as if it is some person and not a corporation whose only thing they are looking for is more money for their shareholders.
          • by gnick (1211984) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:58AM (#23391172) Homepage

            ...the US gov would just get one of the ministers in sweden to lean on their mate in the police force and raid their offices there.

            And thereby show that the US IS as bad as china and that, yes, other countries DO tell other companies what to do with online maps.
            The US government has problems, but can somebody explain to me why stories that have absolutely nothing to do with the US government still attract US gov flames? This story is about China's oppression and mentions the fact that it may have an impact on a couple of US businesses. How is the US government involved any more than Holland's or France's? Yes, most of Google's censored map areas are in the US, but other countries have made similar requests and had them granted. I'm sure China could too. But that's a whole different ball game than requiring licensing and approval for posting maps...

            Ugh - Maybe I should just filter out ACs...
          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            Sure, they could decide to not do business in China at all, but how would that help anyone?

            It would stop Google from burying information and propagating disinformation on behalf the Chinese government. The Chinese take your land, put a bullet in you head, and charge your child 50 yaun for the bullet. [wordpress.com] What do you think the official Google.cn story regarding that event looks like? Something is not always necessarily better than nothing. Google should leave China. Staying is most certainly "evil." Your argument is the same as saying that the Chinese people are better off with TVs even if eve

      • by Alzheimers (467217) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:46AM (#23391056)
        considering the Dick Cheney had his house

        I think you either left out a word or a comma.
    • As Google maps are satellite based, how inaccurate can they be?
      That depends on whose satellite they got the data from. ;)
    • by Deadstick (535032) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:20AM (#23390748)
      As Google maps are satellite based, how inaccurate can they be?

      The borders go onto the map after the satellite takes the picture. Like, say, the border between China and Tibet.

      rj

      • Tibet has always been part of China. Just as Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
            • Taiwan is obviously a de facto sovereign state. Beijing only exerts influence over Taiwain in the same way that they exert influence over any other country, i.e. by diplomacy, trade, and warfare. Thus the nutbars in the PRC government which insist that Taiwain is part of their country are just as deluded as anyone who claims that a border exists between Tibet and China.
    • by querist (97166) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:20AM (#23390752) Homepage
      I do not believe the satellite based images are the main issue here.

      The Chinese government objects to maps that depict certain regions as being separate sovereign countries, such as Tibet and Taiwan, which the Chinese government holds are both part of China.

      This would be similar to a map being published that showed Alaska as a separate country, or as part of Canada, as opposed to it being part of the USA.
        • I will agree that, to the best of my understanding, there is no dispute over Alaska.

          I am not going to argue about either Tibet or Taiwan, as those are issues that are still under dispute. I will note, however, that neither of those regions have representation in the UN, and at least the USA does not officially recognize either as a sovereign nation.

          I am not aware of the official policies of other countries with regard to Tibet or Taiwan.

          Also, it was only an example. I could not come up with anything closer
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      As Google maps are satellite based, how inaccurate can they be?

      Oh, they show an accurate picture of the geography.

      But, political things like borders and sensitive areas are a different matter.

      I don't believe this is the first time a country has objected to the way an internet mapping service represents their country.

      This isn't about an accurate picture, so much as a politically driven interpretation or label. The US censors some Google data as well.

      Cheers

    • They can only enforce this in their own country. In other words, if Google and Yahoo don't play by their rules, they will probably be filtered by the Great Firewall of China.
    • Can a country do this?

      Of course they can. Basically, in order to produce any map, you have to somehow go and measure the area; if those who control the access the area don't permit you to enter or fly over it, you can't force yur way in; certainly not in the case of a sovereign country, but even on private land, in most cases. Of course, one could try one's luck with buying the information from whoever holds the pictures from America's spy sattelites, but I don't think the US government would like to seriously alienate China ov

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      As Google maps are satellite based, how inaccurate can they be?
      Probably too accurate? Another message I got from the announcement was that the maps could contain "sensitive state secrets". We all know that the Chinese government has a rather strange interpretation of what constitutes "state secrets", but I guess they are concerned with having a too accurate map of the terrain in China, which could lead to military intelligence problems, for instance.
  • What does this mean? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by RandoX (828285) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:13AM (#23390674)
    Does Google need to pay to use the map that China produced, or to even show the country on a map that anyone produced? Are they licensing the map itself, or the representation of China's IP of the shape and layout of the country itself? If it's the latter, that's just... ill.

    What happens if they just ignore their weirdo regulations and continue to publish the maps? How about just not in China?
    • "So from now on, publishing maps would require approval and (yet another) license from the state survey bureau."

      I know we /.ers don't RTFA, but now it looks we don't read the teeny weeny summary too.

      BTW, it is not "from now on", it is from maybe 50 or 40 years ago. And the Google Chinese map is at http://ditu.google.cn/ [google.cn].

    • A better article (Score:5, Informative)

      by Tungbo (183321) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:48AM (#23391070)
      This link has more info: http://tech.sina.com.cn/i/2008-03-25/21362099485.shtml [sina.com.cn]

      Google licensed PRC geographic data from Beijing United Map Technology Limited (just a guess translation) who has a electronic map service license from the National Survey Department (apparently the prime driver for the regulatory initiative). The reporter speculates that the regulatory initiave may be related to the competition between Beijing United Map Technology with its duopoly competitior, Beijing Map Advanced Technology.

      The official reasons given by the Deputy Director of the National Survey Department are:
      1. Inaccurate boundaries show parts of PRC as soil of other nations
      2. Omission of south sea islands (disputed islands with Japan)
      3. Omission of Taiwan or labeling of Taiwan as independent
      4. Inaccurate boundaries between administrative regions and dissemination of important geographical data
      5. Annotation of sensitive, nonpublic, or national security information on the map.
                (Think of Dick Cheney's house...)

      Part of Google's objection is that there are no clear laws pertaining to online maps in PRC. Thus the regulators are not acting on a solid foundation. There remains wide spread confuson on what exactly is required by these regulations.

      As for Google's choices, they are actively protesting this initiative. But unless they prevail or pull out of China they would be subjected to their laws and likely to adapt to publishing only authorized versions of PRC maps.
      • by Lemmy Caution (8378) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @10:18AM (#23391398) Homepage
        Your summary, which explains how this is a dispute about the use of data which was provided by a Chinese source, is much too focused and accurate, and prevents people from the ceremonial outrage which constitute their 2 minute hate against China. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      What happens if they just ignore their weirdo regulations and continue to publish the maps? How about just not in China?

      Or Publish China-Politico Maps as a separate option from Free-Tibet Maps. This reminds me of Arab countries cutting Israel out of inflatable globes donated for education (which of course made the inflatable globe uninflatable), except stupider.

      Hopefully google will publish one map inside of China, and a more sensible, complete map for the rest of us.

      Oh yeah, and unobscure Cheney's house p
  • by esocid (946821) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:18AM (#23390728) Journal
    Now how am I supposed to get from my house to Shanghai? I need those directions dammit.
  • by dpbsmith (263124) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:22AM (#23390782) Homepage
    I wish I had tracked this a little more closely, but for a couple of decades ordinary maps of Kentucky in atlases like Rand McNally and Hammond did not indicate the existence of the city of Fort Knox, despite showing far smaller cities.

    It was actually a little bit exciting to see the map in Ian Fleming's novel Goldfinger, showing the United States Bullion Depository located at the intersection of Bullion Boulevard and Gold Vault Road. In those days before Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] and Google Earth, this gave at least one reader frisson of forbidden information. I wondered whether Fleming would be the target of any mysterious reprisals for publishing it.

  • It's nice to see that the Chinese Government have learned from their western counterparts that anything you do in the name of "protecting consumer interests" becomes allowable. Their next lesson: "think of the children".

    Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but it looks to me like the intention of this is to prevent Chinese citizens from seeing any map that recognises Taiwan or Tibet. Any one remember Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri? - Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he

  • by MikeRT (947531) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:26AM (#23390822) Homepage
    If people get used to seeing "The Republic of Taiwan" instead of the "Shitty, Upstart Province of Formosa (or China's name for it) that Dares Act Independent," then that would give people the expectation that Taiwan is a sovereign country. If China goes to war, then it's not to reclaim a break-away province that has been acting like a renegade, but rather just another conquest like Iraq on Kuwait.

    Maps do have real political value behind them. There are a lot of people in Mexico that would love to see the reconquista of the Southwest, and the Mexican government has said in the past that expanding its territory back into the original territory is its goal. That's actually why the map that Absolut did in their advertising campaign was so controversial in the U.S.
  • Spot on (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Deadstick (535032) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:27AM (#23390834)
    That means Google, Yahoo, etc., need to remove China from the map

    A much better option than going along with what China wants them to publish. Sometimes the best course is to let jackasses make jackasses of themselves.

    rj

  • When China is talking about sovereignty, and "national interests and national dignity" they are really talking about having Taiwan (and maybe Tibet as well) labeled as independent nations.

    Basically, they do not want any maps to be available on the Net to their own people (or anyone else, but that is impossible) which contain such counter-revolutionary ideas such as an independent Taiwan(even if only de facto).

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Basically, they do not want any maps to be available on the Net to their own people (or anyone else, but that is impossible) which contain such counter-revolutionary ideas such as an independent Taiwan(even if only de facto).


      No problem. Just show all of China as one country... with the capital in Taipei.
  • by GeorgeNorton (548252) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:45AM (#23391020)
    CCTV's English language service ran this article a couple of months back: http://www.cctv.com/english/20080410/101774.shtml [cctv.com]
  • by Thanshin (1188877) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:49AM (#23391078)
    It will push the artificial intelligence field of image recognition to unthinkable heights.

    Blind people around the world should praise China for their invaluable help.

    If they can find China in any way of map representation it should surely be easy to discern among different types of porn.

    From a purely algorithmical point of view, of course.
  • by rarity (165626) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:54AM (#23391126)
    "On this spot in 1989, nothing happened".
  • Sino-Indian war (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Pragmatix (688158) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @11:39AM (#23392274)
    I wonder if part of the reason China is so sensitive about maps is because of the McMahon Line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon_Line [wikipedia.org]


    It ended up in part, causing a war with India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino_indian_war [wikipedia.org]


    A lot of China's posturing and paranoia seems to almost make sense if you look at the history of how they have been treated by other nations.

  • by KillerBob (217953) on Tuesday May 13 2008, @12:46PM (#23393124)
    Ahh... but if we remove China from the map, we can actually have an excuse to put "Here, thar be dragons" on the map!
    • Just wanted to mention that the OP neglected to put "inaccurate maps" in quotes, or at least italicized.
    • Thanks to Mr Satellite, China cannot stop the world from mapping the Sino nation. It can, however, demand a lot of money and make the world think it can.

      Well, China can always shoot down your sattellite, but that might be construed as a hostile act.

      If Google has any actual people in China, those people could be subject to arrest or intimidation if they don't comply.

      Remember, in China (and, increasingly more places), the truth is what they tell you it is. Their view on how information is handed out is a lit

      • by Harmonious Botch (921977) * on Tuesday May 13 2008, @09:44AM (#23391002) Homepage Journal

        Remember, in China (and, increasingly more places), the truth is what they tell you it is. Their view on how information is handed out is a little different than ours...
        Actually, the trend is going the other way. Governments have always tried to control the truth. What is changing is our knowledge of their actions.
        They aren't doing it more, they're just being caught doing it more often.