Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
Search

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Microsoft Loses Appeal of "Vista-Capable" Lawsuit

Posted by kdawson on Tue Apr 22, 2008 06:00 PM
from the now-it-comes-out dept.
Microsoft Government The Courts News
bfwebster writes "Microsoft has lost its appeal to remove class-action status for the 'Vista Capable' lawsuit that has already resulted in some embarrassing internal e-mails being released publicly. As Computerworld reports, in its appeal to the US Ninth Circuit Court, Microsoft argued (among other things) that 'continuing the lawsuit might mean new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners."' Given what's been released so far (158-page PDF), not to mention Microsoft's history of rather frank internal e-mails, that's probably putting it mildly. There could be some interesting reading ahead."
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Microsoft Had Doubts About the 'Vista Capable' Label 484 comments
dionysus writes "Last April, Microsoft was sued over its 'Vista Capable' labeling, and in hearing last week, attorneys for the plaintiffs presented evidence that Microsoft employees were skeptical about the 'Vista Capable' marketing. Some of the most damning evidence comes from Microsoft executives: 'Mike Nash, currently a corporate vice president for Windows product management, wrote in an e-mail, "I PERSONALLY got burnt ... Are we seeing this from a lot of customers? ... I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine." Jim Allchin, then the co-president of Microsoft's Platforms and Services Division, wrote in another e-mail, "We really botched this ... You guys have to do a better job with our customers."' The judge in the case is currently considering the plaintiffs' request to make it a class-action lawsuit."
Submission: Microsoft loses appeal on class-action suit by bfwebster (90513)
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

Microsoft Loses Appeal of "Vista-Capable" Lawsuit 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • Goodwill? (Score:5, Funny)

    by webview (49052) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:03PM (#23165138)
    Microsoft's Goodwill? Everyone (including ISVs and OEMs) know how to work with Microsoft.

    • Re:Goodwill? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:35PM (#23165480)
      Microsoft 'goodwill'?

      "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by electrictroy (912290)
          >>>"Made public this week, these e-mails reveal the behind-the-scenes deliberations over the "Windows Vista Capable" designation, suggesting that Microsoft lowered the standards for that classification to appease Intel,"

          My brother was screwed by this.

          I told him: "Don't buy a Vista machine; buy XP." "Don't buy a Vista machine; buy XP." "Don't buy a Vista machine; buy XP." Per usual he did not listen and bought Vista claiming it's the latest & greatest therefore it HAS to be good. (rolls ey

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by mweather (1089505)

              Everyone keeps going on about how Vista sucks. I think if they got off a piece-of-crap 256MB RAM/600MHz CPU system, move on to something half-way decent (my laptop has 2GB RAM, 256MB dedicated video RAM, Core 2 Duo 1.6GHz CPU), they would find that Vista is about as good as anything else to come out of Redmond, Washington.
              So just as good = Requires way more resources to perform the same functions?
    • Fsck the customers, they are merely corporate assets.
      • I'm sorry, but I'm afraid your trolling simply doesn't measure up to the high standards we have here at slashdot. You see, unlike at digg or fark, we here at slashdot have a rich tradition of truly great trolling, and because of this we attract only the best and brightest of the trolling community. Our trolls gone on to lead very rich and lucrative careers in exciting and rewarding fields such as shills for Microsoft and Comcast management. Who do you think came up with the "Vista Capable" program? That's right, a former slashdot troll!


        So please, in the future put more care and thought into your trolling. Remember that you are walking the path blazed by such luminaries as the GNAA and that you stand beside such greats as the shit eater troll and the ASCII goatse guy. So in the future try to remember the greats that came before you along with your trolling peers and live up to their high standards. Thank you for your time and may you have a successful career trolling here at slashdot!

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by dgatwood (11270)

        Yup. I say it's about time to trot out the old straw man. Judge to Microsoft: "If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear."

        Couldn't happen to a nicer company.... :-)

  • If he wins... we get more coupons for Microsoft products... in 2024.

  • Depressing: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gcnaddict (841664) <gcnaddict @ g m a il.com> on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:11PM (#23165232)
    What's depressing is that a number of the execs complained about the Vista Capable thing too (Mike Nash being one of them, but there are others who didn't complain in their emails).

    The Vista Capable debacle happened the exact same way both the Challenger and Columbia disasters happened; the only reason those with objections went with the majority decision was due to group suppression of judgment. Psychological conformity, essentially.

  • How Much Really? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gbulmash (688770) * <semi_famousNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:12PM (#23165248) Homepage Journal
    I wonder, though, how much this will really cost.

    Some of the machines that said "vista capable" were, some were barely capable. But they've been downplaying the minimum requirements forever. If you had a system with the minimum requirements for XP, it ran like a dog. Did people expect that buying something with the minimum requirements for Vista would generate better results?

    In the end, I think some entertainment might come out of the trial, but the financial award will end up being little more than a slap on the wrist to Microsoft. Time will tell.

    - Greg

    • Re:How Much Really? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Joe The Dragon (967727) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:33PM (#23165458)
      The Vista Premium Ready requirements are about there for a low end base line but the "core" ones are to low. The core should of been what Vista Premium is and Vista Premium should be moved to 2gb or more ram + HT or dual core or better cpu with a video card with 128 MB or more of graphics memory useing it's own ram.

    • Re:How Much Really? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by xouumalperxe (815707) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:44PM (#23165606)

      I don't think it's fair to expect people today to remember how XP ran in 2001 when it was released. Most users are not, and need not be, technically oriented, and it's been 7 bloody years (Microsoft's fault on that last bit ;). While I personally don't expect things to run perfectly on the minimum required hardware, I do think it's fair to expect them to run decently though.

      If the expression "minimum requirements" is defined as "the very least required to run", then the "minimum requirements" announced are probably a fair bit above what Vista actually demands to run, so that's not quite right. In fact, a google search for "Vista minimum requirements" yields a page on Microsoft's site called "Windows Vista recommended system requirements".

      Now, you may say I'm splitting hairs or arguing semantics, but fact is, it says "recommended system requirements", and I say it's quite fair to demand companies make sure that the recommended specs suffice for a reasonable experience.

      • Define reasonable? Your reasonable may not be another's reasonable. Another thing to consider is the software load on the system. A bare Vista installation (with the recommended specs) works just fine. Start adding software and depending on the quality of that software and whether or not it was developed for Vista (with those recommend specs in mind), depends on whether you have a turtle or a deer (bad analogy aside).

      • Re:How Much Really? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by CastrTroy (595695) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @07:37PM (#23166060) Homepage
        Let's compare minimum requirements for Vista to the minimum requirements that most game developers come up with. When I used to buy PC games, the minimum requirements got you 640x480 with all the graphics turned down to minimum, along with the sound quality dropped down also. And it only ran at 20-30 FPS. Less if there was lots going on. The experience on Vista with the minimum requirements is about the same. You don't get any shiny graphics, and it runs quite slowly. Quite often the frame rate drops to zero few 10 seconds while it brings up a UAC dialog, but it works, and it is usable, assuming you aren't trying to run a bunch of memory hungry apps. I wouldn't want to run VS.Net or Photoshop on a machine with Vista and only 512 MB of RAM. But if you're just browsing the web and doing some word processing, the minimum requirements are fine.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by rohan972 (880586)

        If the expression "minimum requirements" is defined as "the very least required to run", then the "minimum requirements" announced are probably a fair bit above what Vista actually demands to run, so that's not quite right.

        IIRC, part of the issue is essentially "what is Vista", the arguement being something like: Due to Microsoft's marketing of Aero being indistinguishable from Vista, customers identified Vista as Aero. So a system not capable of running Aero was not capable of running Vista in the sense t

    • Re:How Much Really? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by LurkerXXX (667952) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @07:34PM (#23166024)
      Yes, XP with the minimum system requirements ran like a dog. You could do anything you wanted with it, but it was dog slow.

      The difference is, with Vista, with the minimum requirements, it not only is dog slow, but there are many features of it that you simply can't run. At all. And others that you can run, but only with reduced function.

      That's a huge difference.

  • Are They Serious? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bob9113 (14996) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:19PM (#23165330) Homepage
    As Computerworld reports, in its appeal to the US Ninth Circuit Court, Microsoft argued (among other things) that 'continuing the lawsuit might mean new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners."'

    Are they serious? "We're assholes, and we've been caught, and being caught being an asshole makes the world think you're an asshole, which would be bad for business. Therefore, we should not allow the courts to expose the fact that we're assholes. Our precious money stream relies on being able to be assholes without getting caught." I hope the judge hit their lawyer in the face with a shovel before saying, "denied."

  • Jeopardize MS goodwill? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Opportunist (166417) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:25PM (#23165374)
    With whom? OEM manufacturers who were forced to stuff the system with "MS recommended" additional "content" (read: adcrap)? Resellers who were browbeat to sell MS systems, and MS systems only, if they wanted to be able to offer competitive prices? Users who have been subjected to activation procedures and data collection machinations that make even some secret services blush?

    Anyone still got MS in high esteem?

    • Goodwill with investors (Score:4, Insightful)

      by EmbeddedJanitor (597831) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @07:19PM (#23165918)
      Only goodwill with investors matters. MS does not really consider goodwill with OEMs or customers. They screw them around. The "install base" is just considered a corporate asset not worthy of goodwill.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Opportunist (166417)
        Ask any Joe Sixpack owning a computer what they think of MS or Windows. Sure, you'll get the ones that are satisfied. In my experience, though, you get a fair lot of people who simply see no choice. They don't want an Apple because it lacks the selection of software (especially games) and is more expensive. They don't want Linux because it still has that air of being a "geek system" and a lack of games (no, the arguments of KDE and Wine don't count, you're dealing with ordinary people here who wouldn't even

  • reminds me of Liar Liar (Jim Carrey) (Score:3, Interesting)

    by v1 (525388) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:40PM (#23165542) Homepage Journal
    continuing the lawsuit might mean new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill"

    That soooo reminds me of one of the memorable quotes in LiarLiar (http://www.amazon.com/review/R2TISC7BK6BUTV)

    Fletcher: Your honor, I object!
    Judge: Why?
    Fletcher: Because it's devastating to my case!
    Judge: Overruled.
    Fletcher: Good call!

    I suppose the short summary of their appeal case was "We'd like you to stop digging because you'll probably find more dirt." No, the legal system is supposed to work that way, thank you. (care to borrow my shovel? how about my backhoe?)

  • Philosophic foundation of disliking Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)

    by shanen (462549) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @07:07PM (#23165796) Homepage Journal
    I like freedom and competition. Freedom is about my being able to choose what I like and need based on real information about real option--not just the advertising propaganda. Competition creates those options. Together they work to drive progress and the evolution of better products.

    Microsoft's idea is that I should only be free to choose some flavor of Microsoft, and Microsoft gets to tell me what me needs are and what the options are. Change? Only when Microsoft has bled the revenue stream dry. Evolution? Only if the better ideas outside of Microsoft are getting too much cursed publicity.

    I see this as a philosophic deadlock. However, there is an easy solution. Chop Microsoft into four or five pieces. Give each of them a copy of the source and let them compete with each other (and with Linux and Apple and the rest of the current crop of dwarfs).

  • This company... (Score:5, Funny)

    by mr_lizard13 (882373) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @07:12PM (#23165850)
    ...has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down

  • Why doesn't Microsoft follow the lead of the (Score:5, Funny)

    by rolfwind (528248) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @07:15PM (#23165890)
    Whitehouse/Government and just "lose" emails?:)

  • new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners.

    LOL. What is microsoft doing that we aren't aware of already? Let alone its business partners!

    It would be funny if microsoft abandoned email all together and resorted to paper and ink and barn fires for all their communications.

    On the other hand, I am surprised that the White House did a better job of destroying emails that were suppose to be open, compared to these internal emails at Microsoft that were suppose to be proprietary!

  • FTA: The company argued that continuing the lawsuit might mean new disclosures of insider e-mails, which could "jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill" and "disrupt Microsoft's relationships with its business partners."

    I think that what jeopardized their "goodwill" more than anything was their decision to actually release Vista! A bloated OS, that required major hardware upgrades, along with poor compatibility with many mission-critical software applications, and strong-arm marketing to attempt to force it on

  • 9th Circuit most often overturned. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Coolhand2120 (1001761) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @07:42PM (#23166098)
    Don't get too excited the 9th Circuit court of appeals is the most often overturned court int he land. Maybe because they don't actually take the LAW into account when making their decisions. http://www.centerforindividualfreedom.org/legal/9th_circuit.htm [centerfori...reedom.org]

      • Re:9th Circuit most often overturned. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by syntaxglitch (889367) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @06:28AM (#23169668)

        Getting offtopic, but where did the term "activist judges" come from?
        It's a derogatory term meaning something like "judge who interprets the law in a way that disagrees with my political biases." The term was popularized by, and is most frequently used by, extreme right wingers, often in reference to the 9th Circuit, usually accompanied by the same disingenuous talking points about how much more frequently overturned their decisions supposedly are (see also: lies, damn lies, and statistics). Any political opinion that complains about "activist" judges is probably safely disregarded as specious.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Hemogoblin (982564)
          I think you're the one who is confused. I suggest reading the Wikipedia article on the Common Law system [wikipedia.org] as a starting point.

          Now show me where it says judges MAKE laws in the U.S.
          All of Tort law and partnership law for one. There's more too.

  • Bear in mind, this is the "Ninth" (Score:3, Insightful)

    by humphrm (18130) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @08:18PM (#23166404) Homepage
    As with any controversial decision coming from the 9th Circuit, take it with a grain of salt until it passes the next appeal level.

  • Minimum Requirements are MINIMUM requirements (Score:4, Informative)

    by CannonballHead (842625) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @09:13PM (#23166894)
    I really don't understand the minimum requirements. If you play Crysis with a computer that matched the "minimum requirements" list you'd ... well, the program would RUN. And Vista RUNS. What exactly does a minimum requirement specify then? As far as I understand, it's what is actually required to run the actual program, not even necessarily run it enough to work with it well. I don't like Vista even though I generally tend to be on the defend-XP side - but really, the double standard between minimum requirements for Microsoft and minimum requirements for any other product is frustrating. But then, any anti-Microsoft comment on Slashdot typically gets modded up as insightful or interesting, even if it's redundant. And, by the way, having everyone switch to Linux won't help that much. Linux is easy for computer nerds/techies to use. Windows is a ton easier for a lot of people, and it's not just what you're used to, it's getting your wireless card, sound card, or video card to work right. Windows does it, Linux doesn't always. :)

  • Dell's take on Vista performance (Score:3, Informative)

    by Eevee (535658) on Wednesday April 23 2008, @09:48AM (#23171650)
    Dell has a chart [dell.com] showing the performance for various configurations. Under the Basic Windows Vista Experience - No Aero column (800MHz, 512MB), they show Great for...

    Booting the Operating System, without running applications or games
    Kind of says it all.
    • Interesting how lawyers can put words together that are utterly meaningless.

      Microsoft + Goodwill = ?

      Those words can not be used in the same sentence in English.

      Cheers
       

      • microsoft +Real bad attitude (Score:4, Interesting)

        by RiotingPacifist (1228016) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:50PM (#23165640)
        Oh wait, the shoe is on the other foot now, quick somebody phone JWZ so he can kick!
        The thing is at these emails actually have relevance to the case, bad attitude and real bad attitude were nothing other than rants with no technical/buisness dealing in them, and microsoft still subpoena them.

        In memory of mozilla, about:mozilla should have something really fitting in firefox 3:

        "And then the just as the rage of the hero had been shown when he first fell to the ground, the deceit, lies & horror of the beast were opened for the world to see"
        For bonus points somebody at Mozilla could grow some and stick a link to the court records of MSs emails as an update when they're all out!

      • Re:"Microsoft's Goodwill" ? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by owlnation (858981) on Tuesday April 22 2008, @06:58PM (#23165728)

        Microsoft + Goodwill = ?
        Those words can not be used in the same sentence in English.
        Actually they can. However, to make the sentence work, in it you also have to have words like: "none", "no", "without", "never", "abused", etc...

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Loconut1389 (455297)
          Or, Microsoft has shown lots of goodwill by allowing XP to be sold longer and donation kagillions to charity.

          Now, I'm no MS fan here (I run OS-X and CentOS), but that's an awfully wide brush.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by neuromanc3r (1119631)
        They can, even though the sentence would probably have to run along the lines of "Wayforward technologies, unlike such major companies as Microsoft, shows goodwill..." (Apologies to Douglas Adams)

    • or is it time to start looking at mac or linux?
      It wasn't before now? I'm constantly amazed at peoples threshold for tolerating pain as long as they're told it won't hurt =)
      • I'm constantly amazed at peoples threshold for tolerating pain as long as they're told it won't hurt =)

        So you're saying Microsoft is like the nurse who lies and says him/her taking some blood wont hurt, right before stabbing you with a massive needle and deliberately scraping the needle against the bone for 5 minutes only to tell you they couldn't find a vein and needs to try the other arm. You make some comment but ultimately you need a blood test to find out if the pound of flesh you had to give up to buy your 5Ghz Core4 PC with 24gig of ram barely able to run Vista has resulted in an infection of some kind.
      • Not true. Microsoft has stated that it will ship Windows 7 at a fixed date and will be including whatever features they can fit in in that timeframe. In other words, your post should have read:

        Oh, please. You know as well as I do that "Windows 7" will be shipped no sooner than 2009, and will maybe contain only one or two of the many, many features they will be promising us in the meantime
        <sarcasm>Big difference!</sarcasm>

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.