Windows 7 Eyed For Antitrust Violations

Preedit writes "The committee that oversees Microsoft's compliance with the 2002 antitrust settlement now has its hands on Windows 7. The Technical Committee is checking to see if the software meets the settlement's terms. Among other things, it's looking at whether Windows 7 favors Microsoft apps over third party programs, according to InformationWeek. The story also notes that Vista SP1 includes a number of changes that were added to satisfy the committee. For instance, it eliminates several browser overrides where Vista ignored users' default preferences and automatically launched Explorer. Windows 7 is due sometime around 2010."

I Think Windows Lacks Features

[Jeremiah Cornelius (137)]

It's really too bad they didn't add enough features in Vista, and need another version to do this.

I look forward to the 1,500 new options that will be available in group policies. I think I will understand most of these before Windows 8 is delivered.

Meanwhile, what do I do with this Glass Turd?

Re:I Think Windows Lacks Features

[gstoddart (321705)]

Meanwhile, what do I do with this Glass Turd?

Polish it, of course. :-P

Cheers

Re:

[gstoddart (321705)]

"Polish it, of course. :-P"
Why do you guys always have to turn something into a Polack joke?

Bah! Polish, not Polish!! ;-)

Cheers

Re:

[Jeremiah Cornelius (137)]

I think that there should be a Software Industry "Glass Turd" award - for the most over promised, under delivered, and basically mis-applied software product of the year.

I know it's a tall order - like ID-ing the ugliest warthog.

The name "Glass Turd" is, of course, a loving reference to Windows Vista. Polished to gleaming, transparent perfection! "It's so pretty, I feel bad about hating it..."

The runner-up could get a copy of Windows Vista Ultimate Edition, installed on the computer of his choice. The Wi

Who cares

[Brian Gordon (987471)]

We're just going to hack it anyway to run whatever 3rd party apps we want.. the EU is really going overboard IMO with forcing microsoft to make their OS how the EU wants it made. If microsoft wants to make Internet Explorer the only app that can access the internet, that's their prerogative.. nobody has to buy Windows. Even if there was no excellent free alternative, which there is.

Re:Who cares

[downix (84795)]

Actually, that is the whole crux of the EU arguement, Microsoft DID force people to buy Windows... in particular PC manufacturers. If you wanted ANY machines with Windows, ALL of your machines had to be Windows. You wanted any Office software, it had to be MS Office or else no Windows which means no PC's.

Amazing how people blatantly ignore this.

Re:Who cares

[Citizen of Earth (569446)]

If microsoft wants to make Internet Explorer the only app that can access the internet, that's their prerogative..

False. Governments have the right and the duty to protect the relatively free market from abusive monopolies.

Re:Who cares

[Speare (84249)]

Governments have the right and the duty to protect the relatively free market from abusive monopolies.

Governments don't have rights. They have powers.

Re:

[wizardforce (1005805)]

nobody has to buy Windows. Even if there was no excellent free alternative, which there is.

then why is it that you need to go out of your way to get anything else than a windows pre-loaded machine? why is it that 95% of the software that is made only works in windows leaving any other OS to use WINE + the performance penalty? why is it that IE makes up over 70% of the browser market even though 1) it is the least standards compliant 2) only after IE7 did it finally have tabs/popup blocker both having bee

Re:

[ChrisA90278 (905188)]

The rules change when you become a monopoly.

Let's use a example. I'm selling water in containers on the street corner. Some one wants to buy a bottle from me but I say No, if you want to buy my water you have to also buy a set of water glasses from me and this bag o ready mix cement too. You walk away laughing.

Now lets say I'm selling water but lets say the no one else has water for sale. I'm a mono[oly water seller. Now I bet you would buy that set of glasses and the cement.

The above is very clear cu

Re:Who cares

[AKAImBatman (238306)]

I wondered why it's so wrong if the Microsoft OS works better with its own software?

If Microsoft had solid competition, there would be no problem. The issue as it stands is that Microsoft has a monopoly on the Operating System business. Because of that monopoly, Microsoft can crush nearly any competitor they want in other areas by ensuring that their own software works better than the competitor's software. Examples of this include:

- Windows Media Player provides a superior Windows experience than RealPlayer

- IE provided a superior browsing experience on Windows over Netscape Navigator

In both cases, Microsoft effectively wiped out those company's markets by giving the software away for free. Which meant that Real and Netscape could no longer charge for their software.

Now one can argue that Microsoft produced superior products to both company's offerings. And there would be truth to that statement. The problem is that Microsoft ensured that there will never again be competitors in either space. Microsoft effectively wiped both markets out of existence and forced consumers to accept higher costs for Windows to subsidize those markets. Even worse, there is then zero incentive for Microsoft to innovate in either market. So consumers pay higher prices when no new development is happening in those areas.

While some balance is returning to those markets thanks to Apple and Open Source, the damage done has been extremely negative for the industry, with the WMV pseudo-standard and the IE pseudo-standard locking out competing OSes for nearly a decade. From an economist's point of view, the OS, multimedia, and web-browser markets would be a lot farther along today if Microsoft had never managed a stranglehold on these markets.

Re:Who cares

[andy9701 (112808)]

- Windows Media Player provides a superior Windows experience than RealPlayer

You make it sound like that was actually hard to do.... ;)

Re:Who cares

[MBGMorden (803437)]

Indeed. I read that and was thinking Real would be suing Etch-a-sketch for providing a superior media experience next.

Re:

[Deanalator (806515)]

I will never understand why open source enthusiasts get so angry when Microsoft starts giving things away for free. Has anyone ever stopped to think that this antitrust thing is the reason windows is such an underpowered POS? Maybe this is why they aren't able to give away decent developer tools, standardized antivirus, or a decent package management system.

Mircosoft does a lot of bad things, but giving away software is not one of them. Their competitors (various open source projects) give away much high

Re:Who cares

[scuba0 (950343)]

Mircosoft does a lot of bad things, but giving away software is not one of them.

Oh, so you think that all software that Microsoft is not charging you for is free?, it is not! Every customer that buys Windows is paying for all applications that follow with. By locking their customers in with their built-in software which is mostly in the way they are missuisng their monopoly.

Re:Who cares

[vux984 (928602)]

Mircosoft does a lot of bad things, but giving away software is not one of them. Their competitors (various open source projects) give away much higher quality code for free. Every time Microsoft tries to add a new feature, they get their asses sued off by every company that hacked in that new feature before, and are now charging ridiculous amounts of money for it.

The first part is that it isn't that Microsoft gives it away for free that is the problem, its that they bundle it, make it the default, and even integrate it with the OS.

If Microsoft limited their free giveaways to software that had to be downloaded from their website and installed manually, their competitors would have a lot less to bitch about.

And the second part is that the rules CHANGE when you have a monopoly. What are perfectly acceptable business practices in a competitive market are abusive and illegal in a monopoly. In a competitive market if you don't like what a company is doing you just stop buying from them... in a monopoly you can't, so market forces cease to be effective.

Re:Who cares

[vux984 (928602)]

Let's see you show grandma how to download a web browser when none is installed... Go on, show us! ;)

apt-get install firefox

There is even a gui for it if you prefer.

Granted windows doesn't have this. But there's absolutely no reason it couldn't.

Re:Who cares

[GaryPatterson (852699)]

You kids! We bought browsers in boxes at the software store in the olden days.

But what's wrong with pre-installing a bunch of browsers, or letting vendors decide?

Re:Who cares

[vux984 (928602)]

And how is that different than Mac OS and all their bundled software?

Seriously? I only wrote 3 short paragraphs. You couldn't make it all the way through? Heres part of paragraph number 3:

"... the rules CHANGE when you have a monopoly. What are perfectly acceptable business practices in a competitive market are abusive and illegal in a monopoly...."

The difference between Mac OS and Windows is that Windows has been found to be a monopoly; and Microsoft has been convicted of abusing that monopoly. Mac OS isn't, and Apple hasn't.

See the difference?

Hint: Its not about -what- they do. Its about how what they do affects the market. Apple, by not having a monopoly, has more freedom to use different business practices because its unable to utterly distort and abuse the market. Microsoft, by contrast, has less freedom to use those same business practices because when they do use them it does utterly distort and abuse the market.

Re:

[cyber-vandal (148830)]

That's what happens to convicted criminals - they have to abide by much harsher rules than decent, law-abiding citizens. You have any complaints take them up with the management of MS who thought that laws didn't apply to their company.

OT: Re:Who cares

[snoyberg (787126)]

What's the name of the book? Sounds like something I might be interested in.

Re:Who cares

[AKAImBatman (238306)]

Except that WMP was included in windows many years before Real was ever founded.

Congratulations, you've been suckered by Microsoft's intentionally confusing naming scheme. To give you an idea of the grave error you have just committed, a good comparison would be to point at FileMan from Windows 3.1 and say that Microsoft has had a web browser FOREVER. Just as Windows Explorer != Internet Explorer, Media Player [wikipedia.org] != Windows Media Player. In fact, WMP was predated by ActiveMovie [wikipedia.org], Microsoft's first real attempt at streaming video playback.

Netscape was the first to give away their browser.

What is it with Slashdotters and bad history today? Is this "make up history as we go" day and someone forgot to tell me? Or is it national unencyclopedia month?

Netscape gave away their browser to non-profit entities like students. Corporations had to pay to use the browser as late as 1998. In fact, I happen to have the press release [netscape.com] right here that made Navigator a free product:

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (January 22, 1998) -- In addition, the company is making its currently available Netscape Navigator and Communicator Standard Edition 4.0 software products immediately free for all users. With this action, Netscape makes it easier than ever for individuals at home, at school or at work to choose the world's most popular Internet client software as their preferred interface to the Internet.

Real's offerings just SUCKED

And if you had actually read my post, you'd know that it doesn't actually matter. But I will add this: Netscape, Real, Eudora, WinSock, etc. were all pioneers of the Internet age. No one had given them roadmaps to follow, so they pretty much had to make it up as they went along. (And keep in mind that these companies were born in the fires of Unix, not Windows.) Microsoft was able to swoop in and provide a better experience by way of bundling their product. They were able to learn from all the mistakes of their predecessors, then use their market power to CRUSH them.

Even worse? Microsoft didn't write Internet Explorer. They obtained the source code to a competitor of Netscape's called "Spyglass". Their deal with Spyglass was that Spyglass would get a tiny sum up front in exchange for long-term royalties. Of course, Microsoft gave Internet Explorer away, so they refused to pay Spyglass any royalties. How's that for anti-competitive behavior?

Re:Who cares

[liquidpele (663430)]

To add to the other reply, MS also kept a lot of the internal windows API documentation under lock and key (via NDA), obfuscated, or very expensive to license. This makes it very hard for other companies to get their applications using Windows effectively, while MS' own offerings of course don't have that problem. More openness in their standards and API's were one of the big things the EU required of them.

Re:

[psychodelicacy (1170611)]

But of course there are favouritisms! Apart from anything else, this is a commercial product and Apple wants your money. But more than that, the average iPod user isn't going to be very computer-savvy and is likely to screw up their new toy if they try to play around with it. Providing a single software interface for it and making it very difficult to use anything else cuts down on the number of people who are going to brick their iPods. Personally, I'm happy with iTunes. It's generally better than anything

Re:Who cares

[QuantumRiff (120817)]

You MUST run iTunes
Hmm.. My ipod I sync with Amarok (on ubuntu). Sure I can't download podcasts and stuff from the itunes store, but it will play any supported media on my player (mp3's).

My Fiancee has a laptop running windows 2000. Her brand new ipod nano requires version 7.4 of itunes, which won't run on windows 2000. She is doing fine using Winamp!.

Your logic is completely backwards. If i want DRM'd content from the apple store, I must use itunes, and an ipod. If I don't want to access that content, I don't! Just like if I want DRM'd content from Microsoft for a zune.

If I want to purchase MP3's legally online, I go to amazon.com, purchase the .mp3 file, and load it onto the player of my choice (including ipods)

Re:

[downix (84795)]

If Apple were to make it so that the iPod could only play Apple-only MP3's, which could only be produced from Apple-only rippers and could then only be used with Apple-only computers, you might have an arguement. But no, the iPod might need iTunes to work, but that is a cross-platform product so defeats your arguement here. Infact, Apple's made sure that the iPod is as flexible as possible, going out of their way in many ways to work with other peoples products.

Re:

[Wordplay (54438)]

Actually, it probably does. Encouraging the sales of one product through the market share of another is only illegal when you have monopoly power. Otherwise, it's simply good software business strategy.

That's really the conflict here. The things that Microsoft does, in and of themselves, aren't heinous at the face of it, and lots of other software companies do similar things. It's only when you consider the entire snowball effect that the implications become clear.

They'll do nothing

[EmbeddedJanitor (597831)]

The watchdogs have rubber teeth. So far they've done nothing and MS ignores them.

Lost causes

[pembo13 (770295)]

Microsoft Outlook needs (and loads) MS Word. MS Visual Studio requires MS Office for some of the data aware components to work at all. Windows Media player often "reactivates" all on its lonesome

Re:

[gstoddart (321705)]

Microsoft Outlook needs (and loads) MS Word. MS Visual Studio requires MS Office for some of the data aware components to work at all. Windows Media player often "reactivates" all on its lonesome

And, a surprising amount of the time after an update My Firefox and Thunderbird clients have to tell me that they're no longer the default applications and do I want to re-enable them.

For some reason, I find that rather annoying. It was my setting yesterday, just because you patched a vulnerability on Outlook, why

Re:

[initialE (758110)]

Nowadays Outlook and Word, they're sold together anyway. You're not being forced to buy one product because you bought the other.

Re:Lost causes

[plague3106 (71849)]

Microsoft Outlook needs (and loads) MS Word.

No, it doesn't.

MS Visual Studio requires MS Office for some of the data aware components to work at all.

You mean the components that are designed to get data from MS Office? The horror!

Windows Media player often "reactivates" all on its lonesome

Funny, it's never done that for me.

Re:Lost causes

[plague3106 (71849)]

Well, let's see, I know 100% that Outlook in no way requires Word. It only would if you set Outlook to use Word as the email editor... but then that's an option you choose, and it's only available if Word is installed at all.

If I'm wrong about the VS "data aware" controls, tell me exactly to which controls you're refering.

Finally, I've had plenty of media players other than WMP that I had set as default, and I never had XP or so far Vista randomly "reset" them. So you're either making it up, or maybe there's something else going on, like group policy making the change.

Re:Lost causes

[Richard_at_work (517087)]

Just to add to your comment -

I run several XP systems, all with Firefox set as the default - none have ever had their default setting removed, and they are all kept up to date with patches.

Installing Office does add extra functionality to Visual Studio (or at least certain versions) - it adds the Office data components, which are not shipped with Visual Studio. Or you could just download the Office SDK which includes them.

Outlook uses the Word HTML engine to display messages, but it comes with it included - you can install Outlook standalone with no issues (and you can even buy it standalone).

I can't see one thing the GP has said which I couldn't classify as FUD from experience with the products involved.

Re:Lost causes

[zachdms (265636)]

I'll stick my neck out here.

I wrote most of that code. There's no mechanism by which it could reactivate. Hit me up at zachdms at hotmail dotty com and I'll walk through whatever you think you're seeing.

Most third party players have tended to be a little lackadaisical when it comes to file association implementations. This is one of the big reasons why the new (easy) Vista file association interfaces (Set Default Programs) are so great. Ask your favorite application to support it if they don't already. I've supplied the basics to a number of third party vendors (WinAMP, VLC, MPC-via-CCCP) to get them up and running on this.

Due date

[Dr. Eggman (932300)]

Windows 7 is due sometime around 2010.

Which means it will be released around 2012, and may or may not have any relationship to the coming of the Apocalypse and/or the end of 13th b'ak'tun cycle.

Proceed with modding down; it was worth it!

VISTA is Windows V.6x???

[starglider29a (719559)]

Wake me when it hits version 6.61x!!! That would only leave us a month of monthly builds until The Prophecy is fulfilled!~

Ubuntu

[Bombula (670389)]

Ubuntu is coming on strong at long last. I myself made the leap halfway recently to a dual-boot system. Anyone have any forecast about the state of the OS market come 2010?

I know....

[iknownuttin (1099999)]

Anyone have any forecast about the state of the OS market come 2010?

It'll be the Year of the Linux Desktop (tm).

Why is Apple Any Better, By These Standards?

[roadkill_cr (1155149)]

"it's looking at whether Windows 7 favors Microsoft apps over third party programs"

Doesn't Apple very heavily lean towards Apple software?

(This isn't starting flaming, this is a legitimate question - what separates Apple from Microsoft in these regards?)

Apple is the, " Underdog"

[wattrlz (1162603)]

Apple's greatest virtue is that it's not microsoft. It doesn't have any other ethical merit I'm aware of, but for many people that's enough.

Re:

[betterunixthanunix (980855)]

Apple is separated from Microsoft in that they have a small market share, and are not using these tactics to maintain their dominance. It is fair to point out that open source OSes generally favor open source software (that is, systems like Fedora only put open source programs in the repositories).

Re:Why is Apple Any Better, By These Standards?

[644bd346996 (1012333)]

Apple sells and bundles a lot of applications, but it is really easy to switch to a third party app, and your preferences are honored. For example, if you set a mozilla-based browser as the default, you will never end up with Safari opening up, and the only time Webkit will get used is in the help system or generating a preview in the Finder. (Granted, on windows, it's pretty much the same, except that it is not uncommon for apps to launch IE even when Firefox is the default.)

In some cases, it seems that Apple has made it too easy for third party apps to become the default. Stuffit in particular is almost viral in the way it claims all compressed files as it's own. I'd prefer the OS to ask me for confirmation before letting Stuffit rape my prefs just because I want to use a piece of legacy software in a .sit archive.

Perhaps one of the benefits of Apple's approach is that the underlying frameworks are far more separated from the front-end applications. Services like Quicktime and Webkit are usable by all apps, with relatively few undocumented APIs. Those frameworks are also more extendable, which makes for better interoperability. (eg. there are free Quicktime components that add oog support to all applications that use QT, even iTunes.) Webkit is open-source, so if you fix a rendering bug or download a nightly with a new feature, all applications can take advantage of that (even the proprietary apps).

Forcing IE

[diodeus (96408)]

"For instance, it eliminates several browser overrides where Vista ignored users' default preferences and automatically launched Explorer."

Yup, just try clicking on a link in a Messenger conversation with or without Vista. You get IE, like it or not.

Re:

[Thaelon (250687)]

Likely this is just because a lazy programmer hardcoded it to run IE, rather than going through the proper API to figure out the user's browser preference and launch that.

Not a very nice thing to do? Sure. Intentionally malicious? Probably not.

You'd be right if the software didn't get delivered that way.

For that to happen it means it has to get written that way by a lazy programmer. Then it has to (presumably) pass QA like that.

So not only is it getting written, but it's getting QA'd. Sure there's still w

Re:

[SEMW (967629)]

FYI: In any .NET application, you click an URL, IE is used. This is regardless if you have FF (or what have you) set as the default browser.

Bollocks. Counterexample: I've just tried opening a URL from the About box in Paint.NET (the only obviously .NET program I have that I can think of at the moment), and it opened in my default browser (Opera, FYI).

Did you actually mean "One particular application I have does this, and it happens to be .NET, so I'm going to assume with little justification that it's a general feature of the programming framework rather than the particular program"?

Re:

[betterunixthanunix (980855)]

Or, you could reevaluate your needs, and if possible, not run Windows. Granted, sometimes you have no choice, but most people could get their work done with an open source OS without any trouble.

Re:

[psychodelicacy (1170611)]

I sort of agree with you, except that t seems to me that most places you buy computers sell them with Microsoft software pre-installed. (Unless they're selling Macs, obv.) So a) the average computer user thinks that Windows is the best option (otherwise why would computer manufacturers always ship with it), b) the average computer user gets used to using Windows, and c) the average computer user pays extra for their system because they think they need Windows with it.

If computers were sold without an OS,

Re:

[psychodelicacy (1170611)]

I guess the difference is that McDonalds and Coca Cola's products haven't become almost-essential tools for a wide variety of people. I'd have trouble getting a job if I didn't know how to use a computer, and so would a vast number of other people. Knowing the difference between a Big Mac and a Bacon Cheeseburger is less likely to be a feature of my CV. Using a computer is a priority for people, so Microsoft not only has a massive share of the market, it also has a relatively captive audience. Because most

Re:

[MightyMartian (840721)]

Because, with 10% market share, they aren't even in the same galaxy as Microsoft.

Ch-rist, but why is this such a hard concept? Or is this just Redmond's shills attacking /. with intentionally retarded sounding arguments?