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70% of P2P Users Would Stop if Warned by ISP

Posted by Zonk on Mon Mar 03, 2008 03:52 PM
from the oh-hai-there dept.
Privacy The Internet
Umpire writes "As the UK considers a three strikes policy to fight copyright infringement, a new survey reports that 70% of UK broadband users would stop using P2P if they received a warning from their ISP. 'Wiggin commissioned the 2008 Digital Entertainment Survey, which found that 70 percent of all people polled said they would stop illegally sharing files if their ISP notified them in some way that it had detected the practice. When broken down by age group, an unexpected trend emerges: teenagers are generally more likely to change their behavior than older Internet users.'"
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[+] Technology: UK Government To Terminate File Sharers' Net Access 411 comments
An anonymous reader writes "New plans published by the UK Govt show that they hope to terminate internet access for people suspected of breaching copyright by file sharing. Under the proposed new laws ISPs who fail to enforce the policy will face prosecution in the courts. Users falling foul of the new law will be subject to a three strike policy: First suspected instance of illegal file sharing they would receive a warning, at the second — a suspension, and at the third they will have their Internet connection terminated. It isn't clear whether users will be prevented from ever using the internet again, or whether simply subscribing to a new ISP will reset the process."
Submission: 70% of P2P users would stop if warned by ISP by Anonymous Coward
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  • I'm in the 30% (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TheDreadedGMan (1122791) on Monday March 03 2008, @03:54PM (#22627736)
    that would get disconnected??

        • Re:Honesty (Score:5, Insightful)

          by QRDeNameland (873957) on Monday March 03 2008, @05:37PM (#22628946)

          Would you be alright, then, if your boss came up to you tomorrow and told you that you would only be paid for 35 of the 40 hours you work each week?

          Seems to me that the gov't came up to me on the very first day I ever worked and declared I would only get paid for about 25 of the 40 hours I work each week, and that they would take the rest. What's your point, other than that bad analogies make bad arguments?

          • Why -1? (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Peaker (72084)
            While I do agree with your conclusion, I think there is a flaw in your reasoning, or lack of recognition that this is a trade-off. If copyrights are abolished, maybe the world will be a much better place. However, all of us copyright-abolishment supporters must recognize that until you try it, you cannot tell whether the net effect will be positive. Maybe movies and games will all be at the level of current independent movies and games, or even worse than that. Maybe the needs of some expensive software

            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              by LingNoi (1066278)

              Declare all works as of 2010 to be public domain, and no new copyrights will be granted on anything.

              Ignoring the fact that no one would be brave enough to try and pass a bill like that, I believe that is a little too harsh as you're not giving time for the markets to adapt and try new models. It'd make a lot of businesses bankrupt.

              If you really wanted it to work you'd need to reduce copyright on all products to 10 years. At least there is then motivation for creating new works.

  • Unlikely? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Conception (212279) on Monday March 03 2008, @03:54PM (#22627742)
    Teenagers don't pay the bill? So, they don't want to get in trouble?

    • Re:Unlikely? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by TheRealMindChild (743925) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:05PM (#22627880) Homepage Journal
      Actually, it is more like the older users (as in, used a computer more in their lifetime), are more aware of what concequences the ISP can really do. After all, they AREN'T the copyright holders. They aren't the police. "And what the hell are you doing looking at my traffic anyway? If you are going to be like that, I'll just go somewhere else!"

      • Re:Unlikely? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by shmlco (594907) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:12PM (#22627954) Homepage
        Nearly every ISP on the planet has terms of service, and almost all of them have provisions regarding the unauthorized distribution of copywritten material, child porn, hate speech, and so on.

        From my perspective, enforcing those policies would be entirely within their mandate.

        • Re:Unlikely? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by mpathetiq (726625) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:16PM (#22628008) Homepage
          Just because something is stated in a ToS doesn't mean it's legally stated in a ToS.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Firehed (942385)
            Sure it does. Their terms say you can't do something. If you go ahead and do it anyways, they have every right to end your service.

            That's about the extent of what they can do given the terms, but given how few options there are for internet connectivity, it's a fairly serious threat.

            • Re:Unlikely? (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Locklin (1074657) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:46PM (#22628318) Homepage
              The terms say you can't do illegal things. The terms don't say that they reserve the right to snoop in on your communications.

              The terms are there to protect the ISP from lawsuit when the client gets sued by a copyright holder - it's not a mandate to become the police.

                • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                  by rtb61 (674572)
                  The reason of course why it should be a criminal offence for your ISP to interfere with your service is. If they set up a subsidiary company, or say your competitor has better contacts with your ISP then you do, they can simply kill your service and VOIP for a week or so with a claimed copyright violation, which can cause enormous harm to your business whilst giving your competitor and enormous boost. The RIAA/MPAA have absolutely no care for anybody else or even their own future. Random disconnects can be

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by nomadic (141991)
            Just because something is stated in a ToS doesn't mean it's legally stated in a ToS.

            "If you use our service to break the law, we'll disconnect you" is likely a valid, legally binding contract clause.

            • Re:Unlikely? (Score:4, Informative)

              by SETIGuy (33768) on Monday March 03 2008, @06:53PM (#22629782) Homepage

              Just because something is stated in a ToS doesn't mean it's legally stated in a ToS.

              "If you use our service to break the law, we'll disconnect you" is likely a valid, legally binding contract clause.
              That may be what the clause says, but in the terms they actually use in practice are "If we suspect you have used our service to break the law or are told by an untrustworthy party that you have used our service to break the law, we'll disconnect you even if you have not used our service to break the law."

              It's unlikely that that is a valid, legally binding contract clause.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by houghi (78078)

          Nearly every ISP on the planet has terms of service, and almost all of them have provisions regarding the unauthorized distribution of copywritten material, child porn, hate speech, and so on.

          However it is should not be up to the ISP to tel what is copywritten, what is hate speach or what is child porn. The only thing they can do when told about it (please let them not look actively for it) is to tell you that you MIGHT PROBABLY be doing something against the AUP, wich MIGHT if proven correct result in the

        • Yes and no. As long as they don't police your traffic, then they're not responsible for policing your traffic. Once they take that step, they're opening up a whole can of worms, and putting their common carrier status in jeopardy.

          Once they start down that road, its only a matter of time before someone sues them for something that came through their network. I mean, it's not so far-fetched to have a class action suit against a provider for allowing crackers to run mass automated remote exploits on their network...If I can recognize them on my end, then they should be able to recognize them on the network. Hell, that's trivial beside trying to determine whether someone is downloading kiddy porn or lol cats.
        • Hate speech? I am surprised to see that in a list of things that violate ISP TOS.

          Out of curiosity, are you based in Europe? Even given the seemingly downward spiral of American rights or expression, I believe that hate speech is still legal here, and not at all deserving of being lumped with child-porn in a list of no-nos.

          I know of several future lawyers who spend a lot of time on the net researching fringe movements and their psychology. A ban on the transmission of the hateful speech of these fringe gr

        • Re:Unlikely? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Kjella (173770) on Monday March 03 2008, @05:47PM (#22629074) Homepage
          You're making the flawed assumption that for anything agreed to in a contract, any circumstancial evidence or means of verifying it is implicitly ok. Just because the contract with my landlord says I can't do certain things doesn't mean he can set up video surveilance in the apartment or lock himself in and search it any time he wants to. Some random guy on the street can't get me evicted just by making an accusation. The ISPs don't know, don't want to know, shouldn't know and what you're seeing is nothing other than trying to force the landlord into being the moral police. If you can't see the difference between "If you get caught smoking pot in the apartment I'll evict you" and "I get to rummage through your belongings looking for any hidden pot stash at any time" or think one implies the other, I hope you never get to enforce any such mandate. Or at least I want to slap you with a fat lawsuit if you do.

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by penguin_dance (536599)

            You're making the flawed assumption that for anything agreed to in a contract, any circumstancial evidence or means of verifying it is implicitly ok. Just because the contract with my landlord says I can't do certain things doesn't mean he can set up video surveilance in the apartment or lock himself in and search it any time he wants to. Some random guy on the street can't get me evicted just by making an accusation. The ISPs don't know, don't want to know, shouldn't know and what you're seeing is nothing

    • --snip--
      From: ISP
      To: Teen
      CC: Parents
      Subject: We know what you did last Summer
      Dear Teen, we know you've been pirating music. The people who make the music you love so much want you to know PIRACY IS THEFT!!!! If this doesn't stop we will have no choice but to SICK THEIR LAWYERS ON YOU!!!
      --snip--

      Later that day:

      Mom: Susy, we have to talk. We don't care if you spend all night online with your 35 year old boyfriend who sends you dirty pictures, but this piracy thing stops NOW or no more Internet for you!

      Susy

  • Reading the data another way... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tackhead (54550) on Monday March 03 2008, @03:55PM (#22627752)
    > When broken down by age group, an unexpected trend emerges: teenagers are generally more likely to change their behavior than older Internet users.'"

    When broken down by who's paying the bills, an obvious trend emerges: People who have to answer to Mom and Dad as to why nobody in the family can get their email anymore are generally more likely to change their behavior than people can just buy another throwaway account.

  • But (Score:5, Informative)

    by slapout (93640) on Monday March 03 2008, @03:56PM (#22627768)
    P2P != illegal file sharing

    • Re:But (Score:5, Informative)

      by nevali (942731) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:01PM (#22627830) Homepage
      Notably posted the day that Trent Reznor releases a good chunk of an album on ThePirateBay (amusing in itself simply because of TPB's notoriety).

  • Suggestive question (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Yokaze (70883) on Monday March 03 2008, @03:58PM (#22627790)
    "Would you stop doing illegal things, when reprimanded by someone?"

    Did they also asked: "Would you stop your perfectly legal activity, when reprimanded by your ISP?"?
    Or: "Do you think it is right, that your ISP should monitor your activity on the internet?"

    • I use bit torrent all the time. On one occasion I received an email from my ISP (Speakeasy) stating that they had received a letter from HBO stating that I was found to have been downloading a show (I was. This was prior to On Demand). That was the only time I ever received anything from them, and I regularly download ISOs via bit torrent.

      On top of that, the email I received didn't even directly implicate me. Basically they suggested I "secure my wireless connection".

      I believe, at least with Speakea

      • Re:Suggestive question (Score:4, Informative)

        by dbolger (161340) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:45PM (#22628310) Homepage
        I used to work for the abuse department of a major Irish ISP. We received hundreds of emails a day about our users allegedly breaching copyrights. Some were from studios, most were from outfits like Web Sherriff [websheriff.com]. Under the law at the time (now sure how it goes these days), we were under no obligation to follow up on these and had no inclination to either. The vast majority of the mail was from automated systems and we bulk deleted them without even reading them. The very occasional would be written by a human (or at least, would be a boilerplate mail with a human contact's name attached). These got a boilerplate reply in turn, telling them that we were not required by law to enforce their copyrights, and referring them to the police if they wanted to make a complaint. We would of course have handed over our logs had we been requested to by the police, but in the two years I worked there, we never were.

  • Teenagers (Score:3, Interesting)

    by truthsearch (249536) on Monday March 03 2008, @03:59PM (#22627802) Homepage Journal
    When broken down by age group, an unexpected trend emerges: teenagers are generally more likely to change their behavior than older Internet users.

    Because teenagers are more likely to feel they can't live without the internet. Older internet users may have been on it longer, but can remember a time when they easily lived without it.

  • is this the internets version of speeding (Score:4, Interesting)

    by petes_PoV (912422) on Monday March 03 2008, @03:59PM (#22627808)
    people know (downloading copyrighted stuff) it's wrong, but they reckon that so long as no-one gets hurt ...

    Just like with speeding. You get pulled over, maybe you get off with a warning, maybe you get a fine and points (In the UK 12 points on your license and you lose it for a time), or maybe you get off with a warning. Either way you are more aware for a while - then you're back to your old habits.

    Will downloading P2P copyrighted material be the same?

    You get a warning, stop for a while (maybe change ISPs, so the new one doesn't have a record of your "offence") and then drift back to your old behaviour.

    If this is a good analogy (comments?) is there really any way to stop it completely - or do people just expect to punish the most blatant offenders and keep everyone else, more or less, under control?

    • Terrible analogy, although it does involve automobiles so you get bonus points making it an "alright" analogy.

      The thing is, you can download all the copyrighted material your HDs can possibly hold and no-one will really get hurt.

      If all that happened from my driving 125mph on the interstate was that some execs at Sony BMG lost a couple of bucks... man I'd go buy a Z06 and drive 175mph across the country fifty times!
          • Hypothetical scenario:

            Let's say everyone on a free way is driving 100mph when the speed limit is 70mph. What is the safer speed to drive: 70mph ? Or 100mph ?

            Of course that might not be a fair example since if EVERYONE was speeding you don't really risk getting pulled over.

            But the point is that driving fast does not necessarily mean driving dangerously. If you're alert, matching traffic, keeping your eye on the road and leaving adequate space between you and other vehicles you can drive quite fast and still

    • people know (downloading copyrighted stuff) it's wrong
      Some people "know" a different reality...that it's about as wrong as me going over to my friend's place to listen to a CD or watch a DVD movie he's purchased or rented.

      In any case it's not the place of the ISPs to impose a (flawed) version of morality on anyone, just like it's not the place of the phone company to monitor my phone conversations for possible illegal or immoral content.

  • Encryption (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mrbill1234 (715607) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:00PM (#22627814)
    They can't stop legal P2P - there is nothing illegal about that. All that will happen on the illegal side is it will go encrypted - then the ISP will have no idea of what is being transferred which kind of absolves them.
  • I'd take a warning as "You need to find a better method of obscuring what you're doing, like tor..."
  • that 100% thought that traffic encryption and ip obfuscation would be desirable features of the next generation of file sharing apps

    get clue, riaatards. the game is over. you lose. your business model is dead, and cannot be extended with legions of lawyers

  • More like... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 03 2008, @04:05PM (#22627866)
    70% of P2P users would lie about stopping if polled about "illegal file sharing". The other 30% just don't care.

  • 70%? and for how long? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sckeener (137243) <sterling@@@texaskeeners...org> on Monday March 03 2008, @04:07PM (#22627890)
    Change their behavior? come on...these are teenagers...they'll just look for another way...say a friends computer or a shared computer. I'm willing to bet that it is = to a gambling urge and the moment something that the want comes out that they can't get any other way but by downloading...they will download. And they should.

    If you want to get paid for your stuff, you better make sure all those that would pay for it legally have the option to...

    case in point...regions on dvds. If say a blockbuster movie was released in DVD in the US but not in, say, ASIA...do you really think everyone of that 70% (that wanted it) will wait for it to be released?

    The media groups need to embrace 'online'. They need to release product 'online'. They need to market it 'online'. They need to get everyone so hooked on getting their information 'online' that people 'offline' are looked at as pathetic. Then the media groups can release to the world...launch Ad campaigns to the world...and never have to worry about this region stuff again!

  • Mass warning-spam in 3, 2, 1... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 6Yankee (597075) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:07PM (#22627892)
    Although I use P2P so rarely that they'd have to be pretty lucky with their timing to scare me, I'm sure that plenty of users could be frightened off the practice by a suitably vague mass mail. Rather than, "We have detected P2P usage", a strongly-hinting "Customers are reminded that..." might be non-accusatory and hand-wavy enough to get away with, while still having the desired effect. Now how much do you think the *AA would pay ISPs to do that?
    • Now how much do you think the *AA would pay ISPs to do that?

      Zero, zip, zilch. They expect the ISP's to have done that from the get-go. It's in keeping with this sense of entitlement of theirs.

  • Response to the EU Commission (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CrystalFalcon (233559) * on Monday March 03 2008, @04:10PM (#22627932) Homepage
    The European Commission recently had a public consultation about this. I'm surprised not more understand the issues involved - my response deals with just a few of them:

    Response to Commission from Pirate Party leader [falkvinge.com]

    (the first few lines is a preamble in Swedish, followed by the actual letter in English.)

    In short, this does not deal with copyrights and culture anymore. It deals with the cost to society of enforcing today's copyright. That cost involves the abolition of the messenger immunity, freedom of the press, and private communications as a concept.

    No right exists in a vacuum - there is always a cost to society of enforcing that right. Without a proper cost-to-benefit analysis, no informed decision can be made.

  • When the warning comes, I would have questions... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MarkKnopfler (472229) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:12PM (#22627952)
    And they would be

    1. Yes I have been using P2P, but I have been torrenting legal stuff like unlicensed media and free software. So why the warning ?
    2. Could you please give me the reasons as to why you think I am downloading illegal content ?
    3. Could you please show me the logs which show I have downloaded illegal content ?
    4. What are the methods you have followed to come to the conclusion that the stuff I am downloading is illegal ?

    If the ISP has valid answers for my questions, I will have no choice but to comply. It after all, is the law. The answers however, I would need.

  • Source? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BlueParrot (965239) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:14PM (#22627982)
    Just who is "UK media lawyers Wiggin" ?

    I'm a self proclaimed British Media Expert, and I can hereby announce that a credible source has revealed to me that 85% of artists think privacy and free speech is more important than profit.

    Sorry, but based on previous events "media lawyer" is not something which smells particularly credible.
    • Just so everyone in the world understands this once and for all, any name that is or sounds like "wiggum" will forever lend an air of ineptitude. The only way this is offset is if the person has read "ender's game" more recently than they're watched the simpsons; that number will always be low enough that you just shouldn't risk it. They should have gone with the other partner, hopefully something with a lawyerish name, like "Bruckheimer" or "McBeal".

  • Hilarious (Score:5, Insightful)

    by GlL (618007) <.gil. .at. .net-venture.com.> on Monday March 03 2008, @04:15PM (#22627992)
    I work for an ISP in the US, and I find this to be hilarious! 70%! Bull--oney! I have told customers about cease and desist letters our ISP received, and the response that I have gotten universally has been: So what?

    Maybe in a less independantly minded country 70% is the case, but on this side of the pond the best response you will get is laughter.

    Whoever posted this article, thanks for a much needed laugh.

  • Stupid Statistics (Score:5, Funny)

    by kellyb9 (954229) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:25PM (#22628100)
    70% of P2P users would stop because its kind of difficult to download music and movies without an internet connection.

  • I wouldn't (Score:3, Insightful)

    by AlgorithMan (937244) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:37PM (#22628228) Homepage
    since i only use bittorrent to download CC material, linux distros and DRM protected videos, I wouldn't stop using P2P if i got a warning... I think I'd sue them for trying to stop me from using legal software for legal purposes...

  • Poor Association (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jekler (626699) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:57PM (#22628442)
    I absolutely despise that "illegal" is almost always used in reference to file sharing. No one words other activities that way, such as illegal retailing. People need to start applying the descriptor to the appropriate specific activity, not to the activity as a whole. Stop calling it "illegal file sharing", refer to it as "illegally distributing copyrighted works" if you must, but don't word it in such a way as to marginalize file sharing as a concept. Some people might this this is nitpicking, but I do think that the way we phrase the activity shapes the public perception. Lobbyists just want to beat it into everyone's head that file sharing itself is illegal, but it's not, and shouldn't be thought of as such.

  • Say Versus Do (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sjbe (173966) on Monday March 03 2008, @05:33PM (#22628892)

    a new survey reports that 70% of UK broadband users would stop using P2P if they received a warning from their ISP.
    Good example the wrong conclusion from interesting data. It should read "a new survey reports that 70% of UK broadband users say they would stop using P2P if they received a warning from their ISP." They might not stop. What people say and what they actually do are often vastly different things. Polls can be accurate but you have to be very careful about what questions are asked and what the results actually mean.

  • For how long? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Eskarel (565631) on Monday March 03 2008, @07:02PM (#22629886)
    The problem with this survey is that it does't take into account how long they'd stop for.

    A lot of folks stop speeding for a while after they get a warning from a cop. Virtually none of them stop speeding forever.

    Most people stopped using the networks which got downed, and if there's a high chance of getting caught using a particular service then yeah they're going to stop, but with encrypted connections, and the general fact that ISP's will only do what they're forced to by law or which benefits their bottom line, and you're probably looking at a pretty low number of people actually getting caught, so you're looking at pretty low risk.

    I know the brits tend to have a please sir give me some more attitude when it comes to government shafting(or so it seems lately, though the US isn't much better), but this seems rather silly.

      • Yup, but I'm pretty sure none but the cheapest of El Cheapo ISPs would implement a policy of no P2P whatsoever.

        P2P traffic patterns just say you're doing P2P, not what you're sharing with peers. Plenty of legitimate applications use P2P (Skype, iPlayer, 4oD, not to mention legal BitTorrent sources).

    • Re:well then (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Z34107 (925136) <zealoussniper@ne ... ape.net minus pi> on Monday March 03 2008, @04:43PM (#22628292)

      Some of us pirate to help the current Music and Movie industries implode quicker

      Too bad pirating something you never would have bought does about $0 in economic damages.

      What was your media budget pre-internet? That's about as much damage as you can inflict regardless of how much you piss off your ISP.

    • Re:well then (Score:5, Funny)

      by moderatorrater (1095745) on Monday March 03 2008, @04:43PM (#22628296)

      Some of us pirate to help the current Music and Movie industries implode quicker
      I downloaded the complete discography of Metallica 13 times, just to show them what's what!

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