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Government Mistakenly Declares Deaths of Citizens
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sun Mar 02, 2008 09:42 AM
from the totally-nonsensationalist-headline dept.
from the totally-nonsensationalist-headline dept.
superbrose writes "According to MSNBC, thousands of U.S. citizens have wrongfully been declared dead, due to an average of 35 data input errors per day by the Social Security Administration (SSA). Many other agencies rely on the data provided by the SSA, such as the IRS. People who have been wrongfully declared dead face many problems, such as rejection of tax returns, cancellation of health insurance, and closure of bank accounts. The article states, 'Input of an erroneous death entry can lead to benefit termination and result in financial hardship for a beneficiary.' Apparently it is far easier to declare a person's death than it is to correct the mistake. It continues, 'Social Security says an erroneous death record can be removed only when it is presented with proof that the original record was entered in error. The original error must be documented, and the deletion must be approved by a supervisor after "pertinent facts supporting reinstatement" are available in the system.'"
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Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:4, Insightful)
BTW, I just love the procedure to un-dead the deads!
Parent
Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:5, Informative)
This is a simple matter of the IRS not giving a damn. Same thing happens if your identity is stolen. It takes an act of God for them to issue you a new social security number.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
_Please_ notice the sarcasm intended.
Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:5, Funny)
Heh, that made me chuckle. What country are you in? I'd like to go meet some of your government employees someday, they sound like quite the curiosity.
Parent
That there's dangerous thinking son... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:5, Interesting)
I would hope that if I was marked as being dead someone could look at my birth certificate, and see that yes I'm about the right age. Then look at my state id, and check the photo and biometric information if available. And I assume a layperson is able to make the judgment that someone is alive when they are physically moving and talking to them.
This is why I hate governments, so much fricken paperwork. My friend was accidentally assigned the same SSN as another person that was born on the same day and had the same name as him. He didn't find out until he had to get a background check for a job and found that the other guy has some felony arrests on his record.
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Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:4, Interesting)
This guy had a false death certificate [di2.nu] submitted for his name and is still having problems with it. He finally was able to get his accounts unfrozen, his marriage official, and a new ID card, but only after months of calls and visits to UK ID agency. To this day with his son, he still gets letters of "fraud detection" whenever they try to do something that piggy-backs on the ID system.
Google cache [64.233.169.104] as main page isn't currently loading for me.
Parent
Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:4, Informative)
How? If the database says you are dead, when someone scans the barcode it still says you are dead. Even if a government employee sees you appear to be alive and look like th eperson on the card, its going to take paper work and procedure to get that changed because often the people that you talk with (especially at the IRS) are not empowered to do anything of real value in this situation other than fill out a form.
Secondly, I know people who look like nothing like license card. They gained weight, dyed their, had surgery, are sick, etc etc and have grief going into a bar much less deal with the government.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Owing to Germany's history, there exists a keen sense among the populous that making the government too powerful is a bad thing. No such feeling is present among a majority of Americans/British/etc., and the possibility of governmental abuse of an ID card scheme is consequently real.
To paraphrase the old saw, 'The price of freedom is eternally fumbling for utility bills'.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Owing to Germany's history, there exists a keen sense among the populous that making the government too powerful is a bad thing. No such feeling is present among a majority of Americans/British/etc., and the possibility of governmental abuse of an ID card scheme is consequently real.
Have you ever actually read the constitution? It borders on paranoid as to the extent to which it goes to ensure that the government doesn't become too powerful. America's worst infractions have been a result of directly and blatantly violating the constitution.
We're not that different from France in that regard. There was quite a bit of ideological spillover between the drafting of the constitution and the French Revolution.
The UK is an interesting case, because, for the most part, the British governme
Americans' paranoia is wearing off (Score:5, Insightful)
I think, the GP's point was, Americans today don't care as much — we don't share the Founders' paranoia. Probably, because we have not seen the problem firsthand in too many generations — thanks, no doubt, to the Constitution.
The First Amendment itself is getting chipped away — you can't fake e-mail headers [wired.com] (there goes the anonymous speech, deemed precious on this very forum every time some asshole tries to get away breaking copyrights), and you can't be helping a political candidate [washingtonpost.com] too much.
But Americans welcome these laws, because they seem to address an acute problem (spam, lobbyists with too much freedom of speech, etc.). We clearly lost most of that paranoia of 200 years ago... Don't even get me started on the Second Amendment...
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Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Do you trust the government with your idenity? (Score:4, Insightful)
One of the markers of an overly moralistic society is the tendency to absolutes, black and white, right and wrong, gay and straight.
Most people are intrinsically bi, along some kind of spectrum. In north america, at least, both het and gay sides of the fence exert a lot of pressure on people to be one thing or the other, and this causes plenty of grief.
I happen to live in a community where it's easier than just about anywhere for people to switch, and it happens more often than you might imagine. There are many ways to be in the closet, and bi's are pushed there by both sides.
Parent
Netcraft has prior art? (Score:5, Funny)
Netcraft certainly have a business model that would appear to pre-date this government declaring things dead situation.
Even getting a job is nixed to (Score:4, Interesting)
Not saying verification is wrong, but there needs to be some leeway for 'mistakes' like this.
It's official... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Have brains? Unlife's good!
Obligatory Monty Python (Score:3, Funny)
Logic suggests... (Score:5, Informative)
You green-blooded, inhuman... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
simple solution.. just contact nobel prize winner (Score:5, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lal_Bihari [wikipedia.org]
He founded the Association of the Dead
I wonder if it wouldn't be much less trouble ... (Score:5, Funny)
After all ... we can't have inaccurate records now, can we? That would be the road to chaos! And think of the savings. We wouldn't have to go on record recording changes to the records, and who benefit from such a record?
Why not set up an adminstrative comittee suitably empowered to, and responsible for, maintaining the integrity of the records? How about that? It would solve this little problem in record time!
what if.... (Score:4, Funny)
will the clerk sitting behind the desk hand the papers back to you, stating that you have not given sufficient proof that you are alive.
at that point, i would likely flip out and start eating brains.
Not her brain, mind you, because if she fails to realize that standing in front of her kinda proves that I am alive; thats not a brain worth eating.
This is great news! (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the most effective way to live "off the grid!" No more taxes, etc.
Think of the legal implications.
Its against the law to "mistreat" a dead body. So, no death penalty for someone declared dead. Also, since you're dead, they can't stick you in a jail cell (the state won't to pay to jail a dead person, and other detainees would have a good complaint, cruel and unusual punishment and all that). Heck, they can't even put the cuffs on you without running afoul of the requirement to treat a dead body with all due respect and dignity .... someone should take this and really run with it.
Of course, there's the downside. No more sex, since necrophilia is also against the law ...
Re:This is great news! (Score:5, Funny)
Of course, there's the downside. No more sex, since necrophilia is also against the law ...
I don't think it is illegal for the dead person to have sex in any jurisdiction, just find yourself another dead person to do it with and you are both in the clear.
Parent
Hang on, I've got to go register a domain (Score:5, Funny)
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Bureaucracy (Score:5, Interesting)
I live in a two family house. I moved from the first floor to the second floor. In the phone junction box, I just swapped the wires. I figured no problem. I called the phone company to tell them what I did (In the form of "I was about to do") and they said, no you can't do that. They have to send a technician to the pole in front of the house to change the wires and change their computer records, of course, there was a service fee involved.
I was pissed off, then it occurred to me, I called the phone company again to say that they had made a mistake and the phone lines had been wrongly addressed and would they please update the computer records for 911 service. The answer was O.K. Mr
Moral of the story, a "mistake" is easily corrected when it isn't merely "you," but another bureaucracy that has an importance. In the case of the phone records, it was 911 service. Screw that up, and there is civil liability involved. In the case of the SSI, I bet they'd adjust those records quickly if you said you were having problems paying your income tax and should you just refer the IRS to them?
Proof? (Score:5, Funny)
"You have to prove that the record was entered in error, sir."
"You mean I have to find the data entry clerk and get a notarized statement that he didn't mean to mark me as dead? What if he meant to do it, because he's become mad with power?"
"Then you're dead, sir."
"If I'm dead, why are you still calling me 'sir?'"
"It's in the handbook: 'All male customers must be addressed as sir, regardless of age, national origin, ethnicity, or disability.' I think being dead would qualify as a disability. Anyway, it's not worth losing my job over. Next in line!"
Life Insurance (Score:5, Interesting)
In Soviet Russia.... (Score:5, Funny)
This is a good thing (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that it is a good thing that it is easier to declare someone dead than undead. Firstly, people die more often than they come back to life so it is a much more common thing to need to do.
Secondly, in this day and age of identity theft, you don't want to make it too convenient for someone to turn up claiming to be a person that everyone thought was dead. We aren't living in a soap opera, you know!
But, I don't want to get on the cart. (Score:3, Funny)
Bigger Problem Than You Think (Score:5, Informative)
This is a bigger problem than the post alludes to. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) put in to effect a new rule, called the "No-Match Rule" which requires an employer to terminate an employee when receiving a letter from the DHS or the Social Security Administration (SSA), that the new employee in question doesn't exist in the SSA database. There is a period of 90 days in which to contest the no-match rule but if you're not on top of things, your employer has to fire you.
Right now there is a stay on that rule ordered by a district court in California, but it goes to show you some small error can have big consequences. See AFL-CIO v. Chertoff, No. 07-4472 (N.D. Cal filed Aug. 29, 2007. Apparently the DHS is looking into revising the rule.
More here [aclu.org]
at least you can still vote in the CHICAGO area (Score:4, Funny)
Re:wouldn't it be great? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:wouldn't it be great? (Score:5, Informative)
Don't forget, being dead hasn't stopped candidates from winning, either! [wikipedia.org]
~Philly
Parent
Re:wouldn't it be great? (Score:5, Funny)
The thing is, Obama - through sheer audacity of hope and lefty rhetoric - actually can bring the dead back to life. Also, college girls actually faint when he talks. Now that's qualifications for being Commander in Chief, no matter how extensive is your opponent's collection of Pentagon-briefing-ready pantsuits.
Parent
Re:Ahh the data entry clerk (Score:4, Informative)
*That's* a bug in your ERP process. I've run projects that required large-scale, high-quality data entry. E.g., 600,000 French verb conjugations. Of the following factors:
- the extent to which the UI helps the clerk enter the data quickly and easily
- the extent to which intelligence can be and has been applied to detect errors in entered data via checks against other data sources and/or sanity checks, or to detect possible errors in entered data
- whether or not data was entered redundantly by multiple clerks and cross-checked
- how "wrong" the clerk was, that is, the overall error rate of the individual clerk
the latter was by far the least significant in every case.
That people type the wrong things sometimes is, for the most part, unavoidable. It's how you cope with that reality that makes the most difference.
In the case of the SSA, I'm surprised the false death rate is only 35 a year, I actually think that's an error rate to be proud of (out of 300,000,000 people in the US)
Parent
Re:Ahh the data entry clerk (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:death certificate (Score:5, Insightful)
Occam's razor has a bureaucratic counterpart: "All things being equal, the solution that means I don't have to do any extra work tends to be the best one."
You're still dead, friend.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Err, shouldn't the proof be right there? (Score:5, Interesting)
That would actually require that someone analyze the results and make a judgment call. The SSA doesn't hire data entry operators that can make those decisions.
The solution is the same as what was used years ago in the punch card era: every input is performed twice. After the first data entry operator entered the data on a set of punch cards, the deck of cards went to a second operator who would duplicate the data entry in "verify" mode. Any discrepancies would sound a buzzer, and the second operator would have to stop and re-enter the data or create a new card with the correction.
Today, it wouldn't be difficult to simply assign the data to two different data entry operators and then compare the results -- flagging any differences for review.
However, that won't solve the problem of incorrect incoming data. Requiring input (and verification) of additional details like name, age, etc. would allow those to be validated against existing records, spitting out exceptions for review.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, I think they do have a procedure for it. It's just that having a procedure for something doesn't imply that the procedure works.
Re:What should have been. (Score:4, Insightful)
The solution is not more digits, but to make social security numbers, nay ALL identifying numbers, self checksumming.
For example when you're shopping online the credit processing system knows immediately when you enter an invalid number because credit card numbers have a check digit (http://www.beachnet.com/~hstiles/cardtype.html). In this instance it seems that miskeying SSNs is a significant part of the problem, having a checksummed number greatly reduces this.
Another aspect is that everyone uses SSNs as identifying numbers. This is bad because, for example, the IRS can only be responsible for data entry faults in its own organization and not those made at the Social Security Administration. Its like Comcast using my Verizon customer number*. You can prevent this to some extent by registering for a taxpayer number to use with the IRS instead of your SSN. Refusing to give your SSN to agencies that request it (when practical) could also help.
*An apt analogy I think, comparing the dinosaurs of inept big government to the dinosaurs of big telecommunications.
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Re:What should have been. (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:What should have been. (Score:5, Interesting)
The German ID card, for example, has a 26-character alphanumeric string that features no less than four checksums:
The first nine digits contain information about your main domicile and a serial number. The tenth digit is the checksum for them. The block ends with a single character identifying your citizenship (AFAIK it's always "D").
The next seven digits are your date of birth in the format YYMMDD and a checksum for the DOB.
The next seven digits are the expiration date for the ID card in the same format and a checksum for them.
The last digit is a checksum for all preceding digits.
That way a simple error is likely to be noticed and the software could even tell you which part was entered incorrectly.
Parent
The average daily mortality (Score:3, Informative)
The Average Daily Mortality in the U.S. for Victims of All Ages, 2002 [applet-magic.com] was 6706.
That implies an error rate of about 1/2 of 1%.
The mortality among adults under age 45 is much lower, of course, but still run about 3500 each week. In 1/5 of those cases, the cause of death may be most simply defined as "Other."