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EU Views Net Censorship As a "Trade Barrier"
Posted by
kdawson
on Thu Feb 28, 2008 05:25 PM
from the do-as-i-say dept.
from the do-as-i-say dept.
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "The European Parliament just passed a proposal to treat internet censorship as a trade barrier, in particular the 'Great Firewall of China.' If passed by the European Council, the issue would be raised in trade negotiations and could lead to economic sanctions and trade restrictions for those countries unwilling to remove oppressive Net censorship." We have discussed some of the ways in which the EU, and its member countries, engage in their own brand of censorship.
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Submission: EU Views Net Censorship as "Trade Barrier" by Anonymous Coward
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The EU May Be Censoring... (Score:5, Funny)
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~Hands you your Captain Obvious hat~
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Re:The EU May Be Censoring... (Score:5, Insightful)
I still believe if we had extended full trade relations towards Cuba as soon as they revolted, their communism would have quickly changed into something more balanced.
Oppression can only exist in a vacuum. Opening your doors to such nations doesn't encourage them, it makes them interdependant, and exposes them to better systems. Just look at China - they are by no means perfect, but exposure to the free market has changed them drastically.
Parent
Re:The EU May Be Censoring... (Score:4, Funny)
There, fix that for you.
So you're the one who let the terrorists in. Jerk.
Parent
Re:The EU May Be Censoring... (Score:5, Funny)
There, fix that for you. So you're the one who let the terrorists in. Jerk.
Parent
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Well, in that situation they pay market price for tuition, which at government universities is far higher than domestic students pay. Western universities make billions of dollars from Chinese students. Of course there is a price to pay in communications difficulties since differences in language and academic culture make teaching them, working with them and hanging out with them harder but this is the ultimately the choice of the university involved rather than some imposition from
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Re:The EU May Be Censoring... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
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The only situation where I see censorship for a "think of the children" argument is in public school where they are mandated to serve "in loc
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While I agree that some of the censorship in Europe is the more benign kind - I'm talking about the holocaust denial prosecution - it is probably less helpful than if society's moral self-censorship would be allowed to run it's course.
Re:The EU May Be Censoring... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
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They claim they want to give the public more power - in fact, the film was approved years ago after the BBFC relaxed its censorship policies, after consulting with the public. What they actually mean is, they want the power to ban films everytime there is a media uproar from a vocal minority (who haven't even seen the film).
Of course they string out Nazism as the worse example, but we know th
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Re:The EU May Be Censoring... (Score:4, Insightful)
He was saying that the government should crush and destroy those subcultures that are trying to gas dozens of millions of people in gas chambers and use them as fertiliser.
And I have no problem with any such subculture being crushed and destroyed, as I think that mass genocide and world war is something completely different than "annoying freedom". Unfortunately, censorship is not the answer.
Parent
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Asking the state to censor an idea because you find it wrong and offensive is advocating totalitarian oppression, plain a
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As the present and unbroken line leading to the current Chinese government has, sadly during its various terrors unleashed by its still hero, Chairman Mao, killed far more than the nazis in Europe, is your position that you advocate the censorship and blocking of everything Chinese? The Chinese government recently looked like it would finally acknowledge how bad Mao was, but in the end, they concluded "he was more good than bad."
Maoist groups have a similar political standing in Germany as neo-Nazi groups, as both are considered anti-constitutional.
The difference in what is banned has to do with the fact that there were dozens of millions of Nazis in Germany half a century ago, and there are still many out there right now, whereas there have been approximately 200 Mao supporters in the entire history of Germany (a slight hyperbole here). Maoists IN GERMANY don't pose any threat whatsoever, and probably never will. Just like Nazis
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That's exactly what makes the whole thing still dangerous after 60 years. He was charismatic. He could win people to his side. He could speak to the masses. He could play with the emotions of the people. This is why it is still outlawed to broadcast his speeches in full and uncommented on
Re:The EU May Be Censoring... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
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EU Moving to Ban Online Hate Speech [slashdot.org]
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Mind reading CAPTCHA? barbecue
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Finnish Censorship Expanding (Score:3, Informative)
It was discussed on
Finnish Censorship Expanding
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/19/0252236 [slashdot.org]
This one was a surprise to me. Link provided for those who don't want to hit Google to find WTF.
Positive movement (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Positive movement (Score:4, Insightful)
Correct. The real power in Europe is not found in Brussels, but in Paris and London and Berlin. The member states are very powerful and independent; the Brussels government is really just a jumped-up trading association, whose remit is to unify the European market for free trade, and to speak on behalf of the member states as a union in disputes with foreign powers such as the US and China.
So, the EU directives tend to have to do with trading standards - hence the standardisation of weights and measures, the ongoing harmonisation of labour laws, and the project to establish a common currency. The member states make their own decisions about media censorship, based on local standards: hence the famous ban on Nazi memorabilia in Germany.
However, EU directives are binding on the member states and do have to be implemented - at least in theory. So this might well be a good thing. Not sure it's the best precedent, though; it reminds me more than a little of the way the American federal government abuses the 'interstate commerce' rule to usurp the states' power. That's not something even I want to see in Europe, and I'm way over on the federalist side of the spectrum.
Parent
So self-righteously inflicted self-harm? (Score:2, Insightful)
Man, I always thought that they were somewhat self-destructive but damn...
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Social justice will create better markets (Score:2)
Re:Social justice will create better markets (Score:4, Insightful)
This is why there are many vibrant communities for the support of racism, discrimination, xenophobia, and suspicion of conspiracies by Other People.
Parent
Re:Social justice will create better markets (Score:5, Funny)
I like it. I can't help but believe that unfettered world wide access to information will lead to a more informed populations that will shun oppression and xenophobia in favor of participatory government and ethno-religious tolerance. This, in turn, will lead to more prosperity and consumer spending.
Because the internet is such a haven of enlightened tolerance now.
Parent
This move could be a big mistake (Score:4, Insightful)
France, for example, could wind up with a lot worse than old Jerry Lewis movies if the US is able to to turn this argument against the EU.
No, the should never have let China into the WTO until there were *real* advances made in China's human rights record.
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Germany? (Score:2)
nazi ban (Score:2)
And that is basically the only thing banned, else you are free to say or do anything. I have no problems with the nazi ban, large portions of my family (non jewish) suffered dearly under the nazis and as far as I'm concerned it's a crimin
Re:nazi ban (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:nazi ban (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm against censorship, but some people lack any perspective whatsoever....
Parent
Re:nazi ban (Score:5, Insightful)
Using Nazi symbols is explicitly allowed in Germany, if it is used for historical reasons, in documentaries, movies depicting that time, or any scholarly purpose. The museums are full of historical artifacts from that time. What "destruction" are you talking about?
What is not allowed is glorifying the Nazi regime and holocaust denial, as well as reselling Nazi symbols. Mein Kampf is not banned, or illegal, it just can't be printed. There are plenty of copies floating around. But it's illegal to take a copy to school, and then try to convince kids that it's full of great ideas and that they should try them on their colleague with immigration background. Which happens right now, in Germany.
I agree that banning things is not the way. But some people act as if Germany is doing it out of some childish spite, not real historical and political reasons. Millions of people were executed in concentration camps by the Nazi regime and there are many people still around who are trying to repeat that today. Comparing TODAY's Nazi gangs with Romans and Carthage shows complete lack of perspective.
Parent
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In the US they are allowed free speech, freedom of assembly, etc.
They are allowed free speech, freedom of assembly, etc. in Germany too.
In the USA, you're not allowed to openly advocate murder of somebody or issue death threats-- it is illegal and will land you in jail. In Germany, you are not allowed to glorify the holocaust or the Nazi regime in addition to that. There are still Nazi political parties in Germany, and they are represented in some smaller local parliaments. Only they can't directly praise the third reich or the holocaust. Their programme is not that dif
Sucessssss like Cuba? (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps I ought to bow to the intellectual gods who populate the European Parliament and give them whatever rights I have left, because although this sounds pretty contradictory to me, I'm sure they are correct! After all, they are from the government, therefore their job is to help me!
The trade embargo with Cuba hasn't seemed to have worked...it's proponents have had enough time to prove it. So why would sanctions just magically work here? How would oppressing the already oppressed people China in the EU help?
Their logic is like this: some people are oppressed a bit it in some other country far away that makes stuff for us cheaply. So the way to fix it is to oppress the country even more, while simultaneously oppressing home! Why can't these do gooders leave people alone? Perhaps they can't get a job anywhere else? Also, kind of ironic that China looks like it is getting freer, in contrast to the EU.
What an earth would we do without the EU? I can't imagine life without it, the world would surely collapse, society would be in ruins!
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That's an important question, but trade sanctions did help to end apartheid in South Africa. So why does it work sometimes and not at other times? Looking at Cuba - having trading partners left which are willing to help you (like Russia, and several Latin American countries) could be one factor. Another could be whether you have segments of the population which have some economical and political power and stand to lose from the embargo. The central governmen
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The trade embargo with Cuba hasn't seemed to have worked...it's proponents have had enough time to prove it. So why would sanctions just magically work here? How would oppressing the already oppressed people China in the EU help?
I'm not saying that I think the EU's plan would work, but one big difference here is that a big part of China's economy is based upon exporting stuff to the West. As far as I know a big part of Cuba's economy isn't?
There are other western countries than the USA that trade with Cuba -- e.g. Netherlands, Germany, Canada. I can't easily find anything saying how much of Cuba's economy depends on this.
not likely (Score:2)
To the extent there is any actual organized power in international trade relationships -- I mean, power other than that collectively wielded in an unorganized, ad hoc way by various bilateral agreements between concerned nations -- it resides in the G8.
Just because people call themselves an i
Re:not likely (Score:5, Informative)
Together, these countries represent about 65% of the world economy. Half the G8 is European and can vote as a block for European interests. Aside from a 2 country North America block, the other countries have no reason to be unified, unlike the European countries.
So in fact the EU Parliament does have huge influence in the G8.
Parent
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OUR censorship isn't bad, but other people's cencorship is...