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Behind the USPTO's Working With Peer-To-Patent

Posted by kdawson on Thu Aug 16, 2007 04:36 PM
from the nipped-in-the-bud dept.
Patents United States
Down-with-the-patents writes "As this community discussed earlier, the US Patent and Trademark Office is collaborating with the Peer-to-Patent program to stop bad patents from issuing. Brigid Quinn, spokesperson for the USPTO, explains the motivation of the USPTO to open up to the public what has been a behind-closed-doors process. Groklaw's Pamela Jones notes that 'when it comes to software, there is more knowledge outside of USPTO than inside it.' While some of Jones's readers are staying away from the pilot program, hoping that the patent system will just collapse of its own weight, Jones says that's a goal she understands but doesn't view as realistic. The project seems to be doing pretty well with over 1,000 active participants, and plans to replicate it in other patent offices starting with the UK next year." Slashdot and Linux.com toil for the same corporate overlord.
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[+] USPTO to Use Peer to Patent Program 124 comments
An anonymous reader writes "DailyTech is reporting that the US Patent and Trademark Office is going to start using the Peer to Patent program. From the article:' The US Patent and Trademark Office has been getting praise for officially launching the Peer to Patent program -- the purpose of Peer to Patent is to find patents that have been issued for already made products or items that don't properly qualify for a patent. Because the USPTO usually does not have the manpower and time to thoroughly check every patent that comes into the office, many are unjustly rubber stamped.' The program will utilize a Wiki, among other tools, to get the job done."
Submission: USPTO wants to stop bad patents from issuing by GeekyBodhi (785196)
[+] Tapping the Web's Collective Wisdom For Patents 88 comments
BountyX sends in a CNN story offering an update on the US patent office's experiment in crowdsourcing, called Peer-to-Patent. (We've discussed this initiative a few times in the last couple of years.) In its first year the program has dealt with a minuscule fraction of patent applications, which numbered over 467,000 in 2007, up over 97% from a decade earlier. "The Patent Office reports that it has issued preliminary decisions on 40 of the 74 applications that have come through the program so far. Of those, six cited prior art submitted only through Peer-to-Patent, while another eight cited art found by both the examiner and peer reviewers... [I]n its second year, Peer-to-Patent is being expanded to include claims covering electronic commerce and so-called 'business methods' ..."
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Behind the USPTO's Working With Peer-To-Patent 39 Comments More /

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  • Oh, the humanity! (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Groklaw's Pamela Jones notes that 'when it comes to software, there is more knowledge outside of USPTO than inside it.' While some of Jones's readers are staying away from the pilot program, hoping that the patent system will just collapse of its own weight...

    I think it's pretty safe to say that there's plenty more knowledge inside the USPTO than there is in the collective brains of Groklaw's readers. When the patent office runs low on nasty nicknames for obscure tech journalists, though, the screeching ba

  • Admitting the Problem (Score:4, Insightful)

    by moore.dustin (942289) on Thursday August 16 2007, @04:45PM (#20254645)
    Well regardless of the outcome of the program, at least the admitted the issue as being true. People know more about software that are not directly affiliated with the USPTO. Knowing and admitting that this is true is a significant step in the process of fixing the system. Seeing that the door is open, regardless of how wide, is a good sign that things may be able to worked out with technology and all other patents alike.

    • Well regardless of the outcome of the program, at least they admitted the issue as being true.
      Very true.

      You think this would be simple, yet its amazing how many people wouldn't want to admit this and then move on.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by aurispector (530273)
        Heh. I know a few folks that work for the patent office. Wonderful, intelligent folks tasked with the impossible, who also have no control over the politics of policy.
        • hehe, that description just says 'sysadmin' to me ;)

          I love my sysadmin (hi Rob!), worth his weight in gold!
        • Indeed - as oft as we slashdot folk tend to berate the USPTO's idiocy, you've got to remember the most famous employee of the USPTO - Albert Einstein. Admittedly, he didn't achieve worldwide renown until well after he'd left, but nevertheless even Einstein, as brilliant as he was, had no traceable impact on the way the USPTO functioned.

          As I see it, a large part of the problem with the USPTO is the perception that "I can patent anything - even a perpetual motion machine!" - which in turn yields an enormo

          • Re:Admitting the Problem (Score:4, Informative)

            by MadUndergrad (950779) on Thursday August 16 2007, @06:21PM (#20255439)
            Albert Einstein didn't work at the United States Patent and Trademark Office. He wasn't in America at that time.
          • Sooo... do you actually know anything about Einstein? If you did, you'd know he was incredibly socially awkward, as many people with a mind like his were. He was pretty much the type of person I would never expect to see revolutionising any organization, particularly a government organization. Plus there's also the fact that I'm pretty sure Einstein never worked for the USPTO. Where the heck did that come from? If he did he'd probably get stuck in the mailroom or something. I don't know if you know thi

            • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

              by MTocci (135460)

              He didn't work for the USPTO, but he did work for the Swiss Patent office before getting his landmark papers published in 1905. He didn't write patents, he was a patent examiner.

            • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

              by TapeCutter (624760)
              "...do you actually know anything about Einstein? If you did, you'd know he was incredibly socially awkward, as many people with a mind like his were."

              I have read two biographies on Albert, he was a tad eccentric but was far from "socially awkward" as demonstrated by this speech [peperonity.com] he gave before he left Germany.

              "I'm pretty sure Einstein never worked for the USPTO"

              Correct, he worked as a clerk for the Swiss patent office in 1904, roughly 30yrs before he came to the US. While at the Swiss patent office

        • Heh. I know a few folks that work for the patent office. Wonderful, intelligent folks tasked with the impossible, who also have no control over the politics of policy.
          Do they feel the slightest bit guilty for the part they play in the cynical intellectual property land grab?
        • Someone should patent the way(process) of patents approval. (Patent the process of patenting an idea) and then sue USPTO (I know this is not possible, but take this like the latest fantasy movie).

          That day, hopefully, the people @ patents office will understand the pain of useless patents, where one guy patents Linked List and another patents FOR LOOPS. Atleast after that, there should be some step towards agreement as to what is patentable and what not.

          --
          if(comment_retard_quality > RETARD_LIMIT)

    • when it comes to software, there is more knowledge outside of USPTO than inside it.


      I think that this problem extends beyond the realm of software.
  • From the summary:

    The project seems to be doing pretty well with over 1,000 active participants, and plans to replicate it in other patent offices starting with the UK next year.

    I'm having some trouble deciphering this. Should there be a "there are" between the words 'and' and 'plans'?

    I'm not asking to be a PITA, I just want to make sure I understand it correctly.

    • From the summary:

      The project seems to be doing pretty well with over 1,000 active participants, and plans to replicate it in other patent offices starting with the UK next year.

      I'm having some trouble deciphering this. Should there be a "there are" between the words 'and' and 'plans'?

      No other words are needed. Read it more like this:

      The project seems to be doing pretty well with over 1,000 active participants.

      and

      The project seems to be doing pretty well with plans to replicate it in other patent offices starting with the UK next year.

      Hope that helps.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by smallfries (601545)
      More worryingly than that - why start a program designed to cut down on bad software patents in the UK. Software patents aren't legal over here...
  • Wouldn't clever devils who want to use the technology in a particular patent application just say it's not patent worthy. This seems like a really bad idea. It's just changed where the fighting takes place, it fixes nothing.

    • Re:Gaming public review (Score:4, Informative)

      by e4g4 (533831) on Thursday August 16 2007, @05:32PM (#20255103)
      A cursory examination of the site (peertopatent.org [slashdot.org]) gives me the impression that in order to give objections to a given patent any credence, one must in fact provide proof (i.e. a link to a previous patent, or to a peer-reviewed article). Admittedly, this has its own limitations, but nevertheless, my (admittedly brief) examination of the site gave me the impression that even in the free-for-all discussion section, the contributions are well thought out and well supported.

      This can certainly be explained by the (very) small population of contributors, but at the same time I think trolls would be easily identifiable and just as easily disregarded. Since the prior art that is actually evaluated by the USPTO is determined by the community (I believe they submit the top 10 highest rated prior art examples to the patent office), I believe that there is a sufficient corrective force in the community based system to prevent people with profit-driven agendas from significantly changing the judgement of a patent.
      • It's interesting that you opinion from a cursory examination of the site and the opinion of a participant are diametrically opposed. His complaint was about automatically not liking the proposal.

        Both of you raise good points though on how to avoid the problem. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
    • I think those 'clever devils' would have to justify their position quite rigorously. Prior art would have to be cited with proper references to existing documentation. Claims that some solution was obvious to a practitioner would have to be demonstrated.

  • The valid patents are worst (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BlueParrot (965239) on Thursday August 16 2007, @06:10PM (#20255347)
    Of course this doesn't help at all because the patents that can cause the most trouble are the valid ones. Under current law you could easily get a valid patent on a media encoding format as an example, and suddenly the free software community is banned from implementing it. This is why mp3s cause problems. Prior art can't fix this problem, only a change in legislation can.
    • This is exactly the reason that I think the peer-to-patent project does more harm than good.

      It is effectively strengthening and legitimising the (extremely bad) current legislation.

      A far better use of the volunteer effort would be in political campaigning to scrap the whole concept of patents for software.

      • "A far better use of the volunteer effort would be in political campaigning to scrap the whole concept of patents for software."

        I agree and I have been putting my efforts into lobbying to abolish software patents. However, I do not see this as an all or nothing issue. Solutions which only partially solve the software patent problem are also useful and it is not illogical to participate in more than one. One example of a person working on multiple solutions simultaneously is Richard Stallman. Richar

    • Although there are some Microsoft updates out for stuff I've got on my MacBook, I haven't downloaded them, and my Mac Skype has been acting up. I think I'll trust Skype's own statements to the effect that there's a glitch in some algorithm on their back-end.
      • Looks like Microsoft's Update did cause the SKYPE failure. The question is whether Microsoft knew that it's update would effect peer to peer. Was Microsoft flexing its muscle as my contact said they were.
  • White paper design proposals should only be given limited patent protection with the requirement of a fully functional, revenuing generating implementation completed within a limited time frame before being granted full patent rights, protection and legal authority to sue for infringement. That would eliminate the patent trolls.

    Trivial/obvious patents are a bit more difficult since many things seem obvious or trivial after the fact.

  • Some ideas to avoid patent misuse (Score:3, Interesting)

    by thePig (964303) <rajmohan_h@yahoo.com> on Thursday August 16 2007, @11:01PM (#20257287) Journal
    I mentioned some in my earlier post http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=267689&cid=202 12953 [slashdot.org].
    Just some thoughts.

    1. Cost of patenting based on the wealth of the patentee. This should help the small garage inventor + actual real good innovations. Patent trolling will be less effective.
    2. Patent to be supported by product within a period of 3 years. It is the responsibility of the patent holder to provide proof that a product that was created by his patent has been made after 3 years. This product has to be a) made by the patent holder or b) the patent holder has given license to the company which creates it. Otherwise the patent lapses. This would again take care of the patent trolls + help actual good inventions
    3. The cost of patent to be borne across the years. Every 5 years the patent has be re-issued with quite a high fee (again based on the wealth of patentee). This means that only good useful products are under patent for the complete duration of the patent. This again will support the basic idea of patenting, i.e. really good useful ideas not to be kept under wraps, and not the small ideas.

    I guess these ideas should help modify the patent system so that
    a) Patent office gets more money which means more people, which means better results
    b) Small guy inventor is supported
    c) Real good ideas can be patented for the whole duration
    d) Company still can work freely without struggling with frivolous patents, while producing real good products under patents themselves.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by mjr1007 (899179)
      No discussion of U.S. patents should start without first looking at the constitution, Article I Section 8 Clause 8

      "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"

      It's interesting to note that initially Jefferson thought it was a really bad idea to give out a monopoly. He should have gone with his first thought.

      There are other ways of promoting the progress of science and the useful a

  • The problems with Peer-To-Patent (Score:3, Informative)

    by RegularFry (137639) on Friday August 17 2007, @02:59AM (#20258399)
    I say this as someone who's actually signed up and participated in a patent discussion, so this isn't just uninformed waffle.

    There are two problems that I've identified with the process so far. The first is that the examiner who's assigned to the patent doesn't seem to take part in the discussions around the patent. That would be extremely valuable to keep discussions on track, so that we as a community can help find more relevant material. A lot of discussion that I've seen starts off with "I've read the abstract, I don't like the idea, here's why" without actually producing anything of value in terms of admissible prior art, or evidence of non-obviousness. That starting point is almost completely useless - it's just noise, especially if the points raised are easily countered simply by reading the first couple of claims. If there were more dialogue visible (especially with an examiner at the wheel), I believe that would happen less. This brings me to the second problem.

    There just aren't enough people taking part. We need more people. The range of the patents being discussed is really quite broad. A population of 1000+ just doesn't have enough people in it to guarantee that someone with a deep understanding of the area of each patent is going to be present. However, I think that this is caused by how few patents are actually in the system. People arrive, hearing about the project from articles such as this, see that none of the patents particularly interest them, and leave. It doesn't help that the sign-up process is tricky to navigate. I hope that this will change over time as more patents are added into the system, but the risk is that in the intervening period the project will be seen as not being effective and will be canned. That would be a crying shame - it has the potential to make a real difference.

  • Slashdot and Linux.com toil for the same corporate overlord.

    I read that first as Slashdot and Linux.com troll for the same corporate overlord. Whups.

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