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Some States Say National ID Cards 'Make Life Easier'

Posted by Zonk on Fri Feb 09, 2007 03:26 PM
from the that's-one-opinion dept.
Privacy United States
VE3OGG writes "Some places, like Maine, have outright rejected the idea of a nationally mandated ID card amid privacy, legal and security concerns. On the other side of the fence some states, such as California and New Jersey, have said that they welcome the National ID card and that it will make 'life easier'. One New Jersey official said 'All you are getting in e-government for the most part are things that don't require strong two-factor identification,' the official said referring to security that requires something beyond a user name and password. 'But as we move forward and start to deliver more and more complicated services, I think that people for the most part will want to know their government has implemented strong measures [with National ID cards]'."
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[+] Maine Rejects Federally Mandated ID Cards 621 comments
WebHostingGuy writes "The State of Maine rejected the federally mandated ID cards passed by Congress. In a non-partisan vote the legislature flatly stated that they would not force its citizens to use driver's licenses that comply with digital ID standards, which were established under the 2005 Real ID Act. It also asked Congress to repeal the law."
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Some States Say National ID Cards 'Make Life Easier' 50 Comments More /

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  • What happened??!??!? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by BWJones (18351) * on Friday February 09 2007, @03:27PM (#17953224) Homepage Journal
    Modern politics is just too bizarre. The Republicans used to be the ones who were for less government involvement in an individuals life, then the Democrats appeared to have taken up that flag, but now with the National ID card (papers please), both parties seem to be endorsing this movement.

    For all you extreme left wing whakos start hollering, think about this: How much longer will it be until we have to present a National ID card to take out a loan, open a bank account, cross state lines, and more? Already it is being proposed that you will not be able to board a plane unless you have a National ID card. So, what about those who can afford their own planes? Will they be allowed more anonymity than those with fewer resources? What about purchasing items like automobiles? Those who can afford to pay cash for an automobile in its entirety would be able to do so while those who have to take out a loan are again restricted to using a bank and thus the National ID card again. How about healthcare? Those that can afford to pay for services completely will not have to worry about health care insurance and therefore will not be tracked.

    Before any of you ultra-right wing neocon folks start bashing me for this, how about realizing that a National ID card will essentially enable all sorts of purchase related tracking to take place. You can now welcome federally mandated and controlled tracking and access to guns. For example, when other states decide to buy into the fear and make .50 cal rifles illegal, they will be able to track purchases of ammunition and deliver jack-booted thugs to your door to take you away, or at the very least, prohibit you from doing any business across state lines or within states that ban those rifles if politicians decide to play that game against individuals. You can also kiss any anonymity away when dealing with private corporations as the National ID card will enable any and all transactions through banks, individuals and more to be closely monitored.

    What happened to common sense and the political middle road?

    • How much longer will it be until we have to present a National ID card to take out a loan, open a bank account, cross state lines, and more?

      we already have that for the first two. a social security card.

      as for crossing state lines, i doubt there will ever be an ID necessary for that unless the government wants to put checkpoints on every crossing. which would never happen.

      • Re:What happened??!??!? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by BWJones (18351) * on Friday February 09 2007, @03:40PM (#17953420) Homepage Journal
        we already have that for the first two. a social security card.

        Which supports implicitly my point as to the futility. No ID system is going to be entirely foolproof. IDs can be faked, and security for them can be hacked, so restricting rights even further is a futile measure with no endgame other than a police state.

        as for crossing state lines, i doubt there will ever be an ID necessary for that unless the government wants to put checkpoints on every crossing. which would never happen.

        If we go too much further down this road, it will become a financial issue for the states and will place pressure on the states to "secure" their borders, so don't count on it not happening.

        • Re:What happened??!??!? (Score:5, Interesting)

          by twbecker (315312) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:47PM (#17953530)
          There is no question that the government needs to move away from Social Security #s as a means of identification. For most purposes you don't even need the stupid paper card! It's a fucking number for God's sake, how is that supposed to be secure? Having some sort of 2 factor ID mechanism is fine by me. The thing to argue about is what should we use it for, not whether or not it should exist.

              • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                by belg4mit (152620)
                You must forgive the GP, he's drunk the bottle labeled "The Market Can Do No Wrong,"
                mistaking this as an antidote to the bottle labeled "The Government Is Necessarily Evil."
        • point is, we already have one. it isn't as detailed as a picture ID card, but everyone gasping about privacy concerns with some possible national ID card already has had one in their posession for years.

          If we go too much further down this road, it will become a financial issue for the states and will place pressure on the states to "secure" their borders, so don't count on it not happening.

          given the sheer number of state-crossing roads in this country, it would cost an astronomical amount of money to pull t
        • One thing that I think people overlook is that it will be easier to spot less-than-perfect forgeries if there is a national ID in place. It is one standard with one format that everybody down to the lowliest liquor store clerk can remember.

          Honestly, if I need to use a fake ID, it would be a lot easier to try to pass off a forgery of a NY driver's license in another state simply because they don't know what they _should_ look like. As long as it looks official enough, who cares?

          Will it stop professional t
      • What they could do is make it a ticketable, even jailable, offense to be in a state without an indentification card for that state. Maybe they'll even ask vacationers to register with a national database. It'll have a web interface, and a dial up interface, and a teletype interface, so nobody can claim it isn't accessible. Employers will obtain special exemptions for their employees and scanning will be automated using the national ID card or the existing interstate highway toll booth automated payment systems.

        The offense, as with all offenses, will be selectively enforced and abused. If you appear to be a wealthy senior citizen driving a Cadillac you'll probably never be stopped for out-of-state plates. If you appear to be a young cruiser living life to the fullest, though, you'll probably be stopped for the equivalent of "you didn't use a turn signal with that last lane change". If you fail to look the officer directly in the eye then you're probably hiding something. If you do look the officer directly in the eye then you're trying to intimidate. Either situation can be construed as probable cause to check the ID and the national vacation database.

        Look. It's really not that far fetched.

        • Re:What happened??!??!? (Score:5, Informative)

          by eln (21727) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:47PM (#17953528) Homepage
          What they could do is make it a ticketable, even jailable, offense to be in a state without an indentification card for that state.

          That would violate the Constitution. Specifically, Article IV Section I states: "Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State."

          The way I read this, it means any state would have to accept your state-issued ID card (a public record) as valid identification. For the same reason, I don't think any state could require presentation of a national ID card to enter that state. Not to mention that even if they could, stopping everyone at the border of each state to check ID would have a seriously detrimental impact on interstate commerce and probably go a long way toward killing the national economy.

                • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                  by soft_guy (534437)

                  As a better example: Gay marriage. States have basically exempted themselves (with judicial approval) from the full faith and credit clause when dealing with homosexual couples who marry in a state where it is legal.
                  In order for that to be the case, the fed govt had to pass the Defense of Marriage Act which might not even stand up to a constitutional challange.
      • as for crossing state lines, i doubt there will ever be an ID necessary for that unless the government wants to put checkpoints on every crossing. which would never happen.

        What is that id in motion system on freeways?....I live in the midwest but you can probably count on that being put on interstate system borders one a national ID system is in place. Not to mention the GPS that will be on every car by that time.

        All that aside I don't think that is something we will be able to stop by denying a nationa

      • ...unless the government wants to put checkpoints on every crossing. which would never happen.


        Do you have any fruits or vegetables in your vehicle?
      • You want my SSN? It's 078-05-1120. Of course, it's already in your database about 10,000 times.

    • Before any of you ultra-right wing neocon folks
      Neocons are not ultra-right wing. They're more like RINOs. True conservatives are like Reagan, who was vilified by the left the entire time he was in office because he believed in throwback ideas like a strong national defense, minimizing government intervention, and keeping taxes as low as possible.

    • How much longer will it be until we have to present a National ID card to take out a loan, open a bank account, cross state lines, and more?
      Like your Social Security card?

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by jxs2151 (554138)
      I disagree with you....respectfully of course. I am no historian but I think that one will find that wherever an authority (government, dictator, king, Pope, etc.) has tried to exceed their authority, the people have awoken and mightily rebelled.

      Since we in the USA, have the means for a meaningful rebellion (compliments of the 2nd Amendment - thank you George Mason, et. al.) we can change our goverment should it decide to become too onerous. Since most people, rightfully, just want their lives to be peace

      • Re:What happened??!??!? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by JesseL (107722) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:41PM (#17953434) Homepage Journal
        Because black markets, theft, and underground manufacturing don't exist in real life, and giving the government an absolute monopoly not only on the use of force but on the ability to use force is a real win for freedom.

        Could you send me a postcard from your world?

      • Re:What happened??!??!? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by BWJones (18351) * on Friday February 09 2007, @03:44PM (#17953480) Homepage Journal
        Sounds like a solution rather than a problem.

        Well, I guess we know your politics. Seriously though, statements like these are simply non-starters that close off the dialogue before it can even start. So, you are telling me that you are gleefully giving away your rights to privacy of your person and documents, happy to waive your rights to travel without being identified or tracked, and more?

        If so, you sir, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

      • Look North (Score:2, Interesting)

        by subl33t (739983)
        Gang members, mafia, etc. don't typically buy their guns from licensed vendors. They either steal them or buy them under the counter from someone else.

        THis is one of the main gripes a lot of Canadians have against the federal gun registry, which, after over 10 years and BILLIONS of dollars has yet to be fully implemented, and has done nothing to lessen gun crimes.

  • Identification cards (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bradsenff (1047338) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:29PM (#17953266)
    I have no problem with a centralized two-factor authentication card.

    I have SERIOUS problems with the "use your SSN for everything" society we have now.

    Give me a card that I have the ability to password/passcode protect, with a physical chip in it.

    Oh, and make sure it requires a friggin warrant to get the "logs" of its use. Warrantless searches make me sad.

  • Life is easier for any Govt in a Police State (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 09 2007, @03:30PM (#17953272)
    And the USA is fast becoming a Police State:

    http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/PoliceState.html [comcast.net]

  • About time they updated our Social Security Cards (Score:4, Funny)

    by Dareth (47614) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:32PM (#17953302)
    ... to at least include a picture.

    What was that? You managed to get some service(s) without giving out your Social Security number?

    Well, that was just plain UnAmerican!
  • A national ID system while expensive would be a great thing to phase in over 10 years or so. Law enforcement could verify IDs easier with mobile identification systems. State Troopers would have an easier time tracking criminals. ID systems could be created for businesses that sell controlled substances. Not to mention the cleaner National databases. The list goes on.
  • If you mean, by criminalizing all civil libertarians like myself who would refuse such an ID card, yes, I suppose it's much easier.

    When are we going to officially change our flag to red white and black as it is increasingly being designated?

    BLAUSCHEIM BITTE!!!

  • Make _WHAT_ easier for _WHOM_?? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gd23ka (324741) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:40PM (#17953424) Homepage
    --"But as we move forward and start to deliver more and more complicated services, I think that people for the most
    part will want to know their government has implemented strong measures [with National ID cards]'."

    I don't think we want more and more complicated services nor do we need them. We don't want to be tracked,
    x-rayed, data-mined or subpoenaed by email. Actually we want less interference in our lives.

    34 States have turned down a national ID card.
    • I think he meant offering existing services online, rather than requiring people to come into some governmental office. If the government issued me what for all intents and purposes was a fancy Social Security card, and then told me I didn't need need to come to the DMV office anymore and deal with those idiots, I dare say I'd be pretty stoked.
  • Coming soon on "Miami Ink"...

    "Pimp My RFID Tattoo"

    {...feel free to discuss among yourselves...I'll wait :) }
  • If you were to dig down, I think you'd find that the level of resistance to the initiative is directly proportional to the cost of complying. Those states that have more modernized digital systems that they could more easily adapt to comply are going to be the ones that resist least.

    There is an element of states' rights here, and the federal government has become larger and more intrusive into the afairs of the states than the original framers of the Constitution intended. The original colonies, when they formed a federal republic, were very conscious of reigning in the power of the national government and how much influence it could exert over the states. Over time, the independence and self-determination of the states has been constricted. So for some states, this could be a line in the sand over principle. But for most, I suspect, the real issue is expense.

    - Greg
    • I see a direct correlation there, but I beleive it's the result of a third cause. I think the states that lean more toward respecting individual liberty also tend to be the ones that haven't spent as much of their subject's money on modern digital systems for tracking the prols.
    • Interesting point indeed. I wonder too if there is a hint of the old small state/big state fight here. The smaller of the original colonies were also very big on reigning in the power of the bigger colonies - thus Rhode Island's plan for the Senate and Virginia's plan for the House. Back then, compromise led to a bicameral legislature which has worked fairly well. I don't see how to compromise here. California would probably love to go to national IDs (then use them as driver's licenses) and cut the cost

  • Playing on fears (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MonGuSE (798397) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:41PM (#17953440)
    Seems like the answer to getting something through Government bureaucracies is play on the fears of others. Don't worry about your privacy rights we are careful not to trample on them (I'll believe it when I see it as a law). But if you don't let us do this national card with 'strong' security we can't ensure you identity won't be stolen. Your choice. I'm pretty sure the states can implement the same security measures as this card can implement. Not to mention two factor authentication is the end all of security counter measures. All you are really doing unless you get into biometrics (which only work in person biometric devices over a network are just as easy to send false data as a password or whatnot) is adding a second password, if they can get around the first they can get around the second. Ma'am enter your password, ma'am insert your usb token which can be captured just like any other password. Etc... This isn't the best explanation of two factor problems but you get the picture. BTW, the two factor solution will be a proprietary one from Diebold which will be used to secure your vote placed at Diebold e-voting paperless voting machines in 2010
  • I for one will NEVER carry any papers that the Government tells me that I must carry just to walk around and breath the air! They can kiss my lilly white ass.

  • Bruce Schneier says it won't work (Score:3, Informative)

    by abroadst (541007) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:51PM (#17953594)
    http://www.schneier.com/essay-034.html [schneier.com]
  • This is probably a point that's been made elsewhere, but the most disturbing thing about the National ID is not just that it's an egregious encroachment of our freedoms, privacy, and right to stay out of federal and commercial databases, but that it's all these things AND absolutely useless as any kind of security check. All ID card systems assume that identity proves security, that if I appear to be who I say I am, that means that I am no longer a security risk. This is just security theater. Even under

  • It does, but that is not really the point (Score:5, Informative)

    by denoir (960304) on Friday February 09 2007, @03:55PM (#17953654)
    As a citizen of one of the most bureaucratized and administered countries in the world (Sweden) I can tell you that standardized ID cards are extremely convenient - especially in their electronic form. Everything from banking to ordering a new passport or paying the taxes can be done with the same system.

    They've now started adding biometrics to the physical ID card. Fingerprint instead of pin code. The idea is to use it when boarding an aircraft or buying groceries etc with essentially no need for human involvement.

    The question however isn't if it makes life easier or not. The relevant question is if the cost associated with it is worth it. Having a permanent unique identifier attached that can be traced, well, anywhere is not a good thing if governments or corporations abuse it. It requires privacy laws and trust that the privacy laws will be respected. Ultimately it boils down to the question: do you trust the government not to screw you over and to protect you from corporate interests? My own answers are perhaps and probably. Right now there are some worrying ideas being floated by the politicians about wiretapping and Internet traffic sniffing so my first answer might change.

    Still, at this point they haven't dramatically screwed up - I mean like a patriot act level of breach of trust. So right now I'm agnostic about how good this system is.

    It is in fact convenient and efficient with an axiomatic foundation of trust that can be used for communication and exchange of services at many levels of society. One just has to hope that the foundation isn't rotten.

    • Ultimately it boils down to the question: do you trust the government not to screw you over and to protect you from corporate interests? My own answers are perhaps and probably. Right now there are some worrying ideas being floated by the politicians about wiretapping and Internet traffic sniffing so my first answer might change.

      Close. I think you've actually got it, but I think the question is just a bit more general. Ultimately, it boils down to:

      Do you trust the government and any government thereafter to

  • Makes life easier for whom exactly?

  • Some thoughts... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DnemoniX (31461) on Friday February 09 2007, @04:26PM (#17954296)
    If implemented properly how is a National ID a bad thing? Before you start warming up your keyboard to start flaming me with your rants from one side or the other think about it objectively for a second. A few points to consider:

    "But what about Big Brother?"
    Does anyone here honestly think that any Federal Law Enforcement Agency can not access all of the information tied to your Drivers License?

    "What about my privacy?"
    Once again, how does this lessen your privacy? You willfully submit all of this information to your State to obtain an ID card or drivers license. Once again do you honestly think the Feds can not access this already?

    "What about my guns?"
    Once again when you purchase that weapon depending on the type and or State you reside in, you willfully fork over all sorts of personal information to the government.

    Ok now lets think about convenience for a few minutes. Having lived all over the Country for work I have had to switch my drivers license from State to State. I moved from one State to another and getting my new license was a breeze $15 and 10 minutes of my time, however when I moved back to my home State a few years later I was forced to pay a large fee and retake the written exam over again; then wait 6 weeks for the new one, even though my out of State license was valid. What if you never had to do that again?

    What if when a police officer makes a traffic stop on an out of state vehicle he was actually able to, with a high degree of certainty, identify the person? There are numerous accounts in law enforcement of wanted criminals going unnoticed because a small local agency was unable to identify the person.

    States who object to this aren't trying to protect your privacy or security, they are protecting the revenue that they generate through licensing fees. If you disagree with that, please before you rip on that point I encourage you to take a walk over to the DMV and grab a copy of the fee schedule. Look closely at the number of various fees and the amounts. All of those fees are set by each individual state. A unified system would also mean level fees across all states, which would be set by the Feds and not the individual States.

    Just a little food for thought...

  • Our current system uses birth, driving, retirement (Score:3, Interesting)

    by neo (4625) on Friday February 09 2007, @04:29PM (#17954388) Homepage
    Is anyone else weirded out that a piece of paper Certifying your Birth, your License to Drive and your Social Security card are the main means of identifying you? It's all cobbled together in a strange and nasty web of connected requirements. I need all three to get a Passport, but then I can't use my Passport to get a Driver's license.

    Now logically you should be able to get one from the others.

    But I digress.

    I know we all fear the national ID number... but we already have it. If you have a passport, it's that. If you have a SSN, it's that. Driver's license? These are all ID. If you Nationalize ID's, then we can put limits on what they can and can't be used for, but right now these other numbers are unprotected. Take your SSN and post it as a reply and you'll see what I mean.

    • Is anyone else weirded out that a piece of paper Certifying your Birth, your License to Drive and your Social Security card are the main means of identifying you?


      A Social Security card is not and has never been a form of identification. The card simply shows that a certain name has a certain SSN, it does not show that the person carrying the card is the person named on the card.

  • According to Prevent Genocide International, No other factor [than ID cards] was more significant in facilitating the speed and magnitude of the 100 days of mass killing in Rwanda. About 1 million people butchered.

    From the same page [preventgenocide.org]:

    In Nazi Germany in July 1938, only a few months before Kristallnacht, the infamous "J-stamp" was introduced on ID cards and later on passports. The use of specially marked "J-stamp" ID cards by Nazi Germany preceded the yellow Star of David badges. In Norway, where yellow cloth badges were not introduced, the stamped ID card was used in the identification of more than 750 Jews deported to death camps in Poland.

    They also provide a 'nice' table:

    Genocide: Nazi Germany (1938-1945), Rwanda (1990-1994)

    Mass Expulsion: Ethiopia (Persons with Eritrean affiliation 1998), Bhutan (Lhotshampas, 1991), Vietnam (Hoa ethnic Chinese 1978-1979), France (Alsace-Lorraine 1918-1920)

    Forced Relocation: USSR (ethnic Koreans 1937, Volga Germans 1941, Kalmyks, Karachai, 1943, Crimean Tatars, Meshkhetian Turks Chechens, Ingush, Balkars 1944, ethnic Greeks, 1949)

    Group Denationalization: Cambodia (ethnic Vietnamese 1993), Myanmar (Rohingya Arakanese 1992), Syria (Kurds 1962)

    In regard to the UK cattle tagging ID card system, The Times reported [timesonline.co.uk]:

    David Blunkett, was no better. On the subject of identity cards he once said: No one should fear correct identification. Those words always remind me of one the more distressing details of the Eichmann trial: how he told his executioner that the fate of those killed in the Holocaust was sealed by their answers to the 1939 census on religious background recorded on paper for a Hollerith machine, an early mechanical computer. Quite literally, their cards were marked.

    Needless to say, lesser abuses than these are far more common.

    The UK system is unbelievably scary. Going far beyond the punchcard Hollerith machine, our ID cards are backed by the National Identity Register, a database designed to merge all government databases and commercial data trails into a personal surveillance dossier [bristol-no2id.org.uk] that makes 1984 look respectful.

    So scared is the Govt of the public finding out about this that they are secretly forcing passport renewers [renewforfreedom.org] on to this Orwellian database from March 26th.

    They are also forcing doctors to betray their patients' confidence and upload your private medical records to another insecure national database [thebigoptout.org], again without telling you.

    I'm sorry if you haven't been warned about this before: NO2ID [no2id.net] has a budget around 1000 times smaller than the Home Office but you do still have a few weeks to protect yourself. Click the 3 links above and most importantly, read the NO2ID newsletter [no2id.net].

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by UpnAtom (551727)
        Um, did you read my whole post - I referenced at least 3 articles. Also, I'd have thought somebody posting on Slashdot would understand a little bit about databases.

        Once you have accomplished the mammoth task of creating a central index numbering all citizens, it is a short step to make any classification of them you want.

        Another incorrect assumption is that govts only want to persecute nationalities/races. They're much more likely to persecute political opposition.
    • "i'm obviously a tool of the emerging world order of secret police sent to slashdot to cast aspersions on you brilliant wise slashdotters"

      See, he even admits it. Quick, mod him into oblivion.

      (seriously, how you weren't immediately labeled a troll is beyond me. Maybe all the mods left work early or are already getting drunk)

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anon-Admin (443764)
      Time to feed the troll, we all enjoy it. :)

      The government should never be trusted!

      George Washington (1732 - 1799)
      Government Like Fire

      Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force.
      Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

      It is not the governments job to ID me, tag me, or give a flying F**K what I do, provided I do not infringe on others rights.

      What is the government's job?

      Try this

      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by th

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