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NH Signs Bill That Rejects Federal Real ID
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Jul 07, 2007 05:32 PM
from the i'm-thinking-we-scrap-the-country-and-start-over dept.
from the i'm-thinking-we-scrap-the-country-and-start-over dept.
jcatcw writes "New Hampshire is part of a trend to oppose the federal Real ID act. The governor this week signed a bill that forbids state agencies from complying with the controversial federal regulation. The Real ID law, first passed by Congress in 2005, currently requires that all state driver's licenses and other identification cards include a digital photograph and a bar code that can be scanned by electronic readers. Such a federally approved ID card or document would be required for people entering a federal building, nuclear power plant and commercial airplane. The New Hampshire bill, which labeled the Real ID Act as "contrary and repugnant" to the New Hampshire and U.S. Constitutions, was passed in the state Senate by a 24-0 vote in late May."
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Montana Says No to Real ID, Passes Law to Deny It 518 comments
SoCalChris writes "Montana's governor signed a bill yesterday in defiance of the Real ID Act. House Bill 287 [PDF] requires the Montana Motor Vehicle Division to not implement the provisions of the Real ID Act, and to report to the governor any attempts by any agent or agency of the Department of Homeland Security to attempt to implement the bill. Montana is the first state to implement such a law."
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Politics: Massachusetts Joins the Real ID Fight 330 comments
In the battle against big government and the infamous Real ID, Massachusetts has hopped on board. In the words of State Senator Richard T. Moore, D-Uxbridge, "Historically, Americans have resisted the idea, which totalitarian governments have tended to do, of having a national ID. That's the broad philosophical issue. I don't think it's a good move and I would be reluctant to see why we are going to that step." And State Attorney General Martha Coakley thinks "it's a bad idea." Should be interesting to see how it gets voted.
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Politics: More States Rebel Against Real ID Act 295 comments
Spamicles writes with a link to a Lawbean post about more rebellion against the Real ID act. New Hampshire and Oklahoma have joined Montana and Washington state in passing statutes refuting the ID act's guidelines. "However, these actions could eventually lead to drivers licenses issued in these states to not be accepted as official identification when boarding airplanes or accessing federal buildings. In addition to these four states, members of the Idaho legislature intentionally left out money in the budget to comply with the Act."
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Going to Yosemite? Get Your Passport Ready! 969 comments
rev_media writes to tell us that CNN has a few updates to the Real ID act currently facing legislators. The Real ID acts mandates all states to begin issuing federal IDs to all citizens by 2008. Costs could be as much at $14 billion, but only 40 million are currently allocated. Several states have passed legislation expressly forbidding participation in the program, while others seem to be all for it. The IDs will be required for access to all federal areas including flights, state parks and federal buildings. People in states refusing to comply will need to show passports even for domestic flights.
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Frist Post... (Score:3, Interesting)
Interesting... (Score:2)
The Federal Government is nothing without the states, especially when the military (and lots o' national guard units) is stuck cab-deep in the Iraqi sand.
This will not end well...
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16th Amendment?
Re:Frist Post... (Score:5, Informative)
In theory the State power should be at least equal within the State, we have a Federal system.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism [wikipedia.org] In reality our States have lost alot of autonomy to the Federal Government because of abuses of the Interstate commerce clause.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_co
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That is also limited by the fact that the money all comes from the citizens of the states to begin with. If a state would enact a law that withholds all taxes of every kind collected from its citizens, especially income tax, there is nothing the Feds could do short of taking over that state's government by military force or other draconian measures. That might be pretty tough for a big important state, such as California. Th
Re:Frist Post... (Score:5, Interesting)
Right to travel:
In U.S. v Guest 383 U.S. 745 (1966): "It is a right that has been firmly established and repeatedly recognized." Shapiro v Thompson 394 U.S. 618 (1969), Justice Stewart: "it is a right broadly assertable(sic) against private interference as well as governmental action. Like the right of association, ... it is a virtually unconditional personal right, guaranteed by the Constitution to us all."(*) The Articles of Confederation defined a right to travel; It may be that the right was presumed to be inherent; if so, the authors of the constitution could also have thought it redundant to make it explicit.
(*) Despite this assertion, the constitution says very little about the right to travel, other than to ensure that federal legislators have a right to go legislate as per article 1, section 6.
Once the government starts saying "You can travel only if you meet the following conditions" (passport, ID, money in pocket, good reputation, etc.), they have set up a coercive situation where equality has been sundered. This is one of the key arguments against the underlying premise of RealID, as well as the no-fly list and similar non-judicial restrictions on travel and modes of travel. What you propose, the limitation of travel from state to state requiring a passport (in your concept, just by plane, but generally in any case), is a severe limitation upon the ability to travel.
And I would sadly note that as recently as just a few decades ago, the very idea was unthinkable; it is even encoded into the art of the day. In Tom Clancy's "Hunt for Red October", the first officer, bent upon defecting to the US, asks the captain if one could travel "state to state" without papers in the US; the captain assures him that is the case, and the first officer, a product of the Soviet government's implementation of just such restrictions, reacts in pleased wonder.
It seems that almost any war showing conditions in Europe will offer a tension-laced scene where someone's papers are demanded — people used to be quick to recognize this as an abuse of power wielded for the sake of establishing and maintaining that power, and for no other reason. Orwell wrote (in 1984): "The purpose of power... is power" — he was cautionary.
Now we see travel limitations proposed sincerely in the previous post, as if this actually was a good idea. I find this more than a little depressing, and frightening.
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Re:Frist Post... (Score:4, Informative)
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Not really. Only if you want to get on an airplane flying from state to state. What's so different about that than requiring a drivers license if you want to drive a car either within a state o from one to another? We've had those for years. In either case the government wants to know who you are. My teenage son had to bring his birth certificate and social security card to the DMV in order to get a driver's lea
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The most far-reaching agreement made at the Constitutional Convention was that the federal government must have the power to collect taxes - direct taxes on ind
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Re:Frist Post... (Score:5, Informative)
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Declaration of Independece and slavery (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, Justice Thomas of the US Supreme Court alone believes that the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution should basically the force of law, although nearly everyone else thinks the words are merely aspirational. I tend to agree with Justice Thomas on this; there is just something powerful and basic about "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."
In his first drafts of the Declaration of Independence Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the DOI, wrote
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Of course, sin
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Live Free or Die. (Score:5, Insightful)
TSG
Re:Live Free or Die. (Score:5, Informative)
"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils."
- General John Stark
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What's going on here? (Score:3, Interesting)
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Indeed, a sensible question about how this country is run. I think it's fair to assume you're not American right?
Re:What's going on here? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:What's up with bill attachment anyway? (Score:4, Informative)
Interestingly enough, the Real ID act is given as an example of a rider =P
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sessons of congress (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing 200 years ago they didn't write 1,000 page bills. Who the hell can read through 10,000 pages a week to search for this crap?
No, 200 years ago congress didn't write 200 page never mind 1000 page bills. Back then congressional sessions were short, most of congress had to work for a living and couldn't take much tyme off to go to Washington. A few states are still like this, Texas for instance. By law, or constitutional, the Texas legislature can only me
They're right twice (Score:2)
Wow! a *barcode* and a *digital photo*? these have *got* to be the most unfalsifiable digital features. This is scary secure!
Seriously though, even if NH legislators were pro Real-ID (which apparently they aren't on moral grounds, thankfully), they had to oppose it just because it's so technologically retarded that it would bring exactly no added security whatsoever.
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Re:They're right twice (Score:4, Interesting)
The optimum locations for physically carried ID were worked out some time ago. Either the forehead (see The NT's "Revelations" section, Hindu "caste" marks, etc), or the left chest (see Germany, ca. 1940's, and the "ID" the Jews had to carry.)
However, the RealID legislation has murky verbiage that allows for unspecified technology to be used to carry the ID electronically. Odds strongly favor this being RFID or something similar. So no need for it to be on your body, per se; it could be in your body just as easily as it could be on it, or on a card or similar external carrier. And of course, this negates the need to "present" your ID; it'll be read when you're within X distance of any client that wants to know anything in particular about you.
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This is good and all.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder if that's something that can be done administratively, or has to be legislated into existence.
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The legislature controls taxes and spending. I believe this topic is usually covered in most grade schools.
Taxes paid by NE Benefits Received by NE (Score:5, Insightful)
But at what point will the Federal Government try to link federal funds & REAL ID compliance?
New England pays far more federal taxes than it receives in federal aid. Leaving the union would be a welcome move, as we could stop paying for all the federal welfare to the southern and mid-western states. If you want to read a very amusing (and profanity-laced) rant about this, go see FucktheSouth.com [fuckthesouth.com]. The last few winters, Bush has slashed the federal home heating assistance programs; we've got people old people freezing to death because they can't afford to heat their homes. Meanwhile, you'll note that programs for midwestern corn and livestock farmers are doing quite well...
You don't understand how pissed off New England has been since 2000. New Hampshire is full of people who *really* don't like anyone telling them what they can/can't do, and they're pretty well armed. Maine's geographically IN Canada anyway, Vermont's voted to impeach Bush more times than I can count. In Massachusetts, residents run the political spectrum, but we're also the ones who started [wikipedia.org] the War of Independence, bitches.
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Re:Taxes paid by NE Benefits Received by NE (Score:5, Interesting)
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But at what point will the Federal Government try to link federal funds & REAL ID complaince?
Like they link seat belt law compliance and federal highway funding?
New Hampshire doesn't care. Apparently they are the only state that has refused to pass a law telling adults they have to buckle up so that they can get their share of the federal money.
Nuclear Powerplant? (Score:4, Insightful)
Federal Employees and flights (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Federal Employees and flights (Score:4, Insightful)
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Funny, all of them are not totalitarian and their populations have rights? Why is everyone so against it here?
At this point just stick a freaking chip in me please or give me ONE ID card !!!!!
Which is kinda the point of REAL ID. It can replace your passport, drivers license and possibly SS card. Unfortunately, people are so afraid that Federal agents are suddenly going to burst out of every c
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That's it? It's expensive and it doesn't work? Why not the same fervor of more expensive, less effective government security programs? Border security for example. The creation of the Internet was expensive and did nothing for security. Are you against that? Federa
Re:give me a break (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, we're already a computerized society, and they can already do a lot of this. That's bad, but the disparate nature of the databases makes doing such searches difficult and expensive, thus relegating it to important suspects. With this information at the governments fingertips, the cop that pulls you over for 'speeding' could see everywhere you've used your ID. Maybe take you downtown for questioning because you happen to go to the same night club as a wanted fugitive. Or maybe he's a bible thumper and wants to "punish" you for some blight against his beliefs on your record.
Is all that Paranoid? You bet. But the best defense of your privacy is to not allow people to have access to it, regardless of whether it's for the "greater good" or not. You're privacy is not private if the government has access to it, regardless of whether you think you have anything to hide or not.
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Re:give me a break (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Our lawmakers have the responsibility to give a big law like this its own proper attention and debate, even if they don't feel like it.
2) If you want a law to fly under the radar... that disgusts me. The members of Congress are supposed to be representing us, not trying to get things shoved through under our noses without us noticing!
In either case, tacking the bill onto something unrelated was unacceptable. These are the only two reasons for doing so I can think of at the moment, so unless someone can come up with a good reason for piggybacking Real ID, I oppose the damn law because it was passed in an unethical fashion. I might even have supported the idea if it had been given its own spotlight, as it deserved, but it comes across to me very shady, as if our lawmakers are trying to hide things from us. That's not cool.
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To be fair, almost nothing that has even the slightest level of controversy gets passed anymore without being attached to a military spending or a hurricane aid bill.
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I understand your concern, but is the LACK of a national ID the only thing keeping the Feds from tracking me? Granted, this card could be used as a tool to collect data, but no more or less than my existing state ID card. There is no difference except that it might make it a bit easier. Then again, you could say that about any tool, such as computers, and federal buildings, and federal cars for government employees, and every ot
Re:give me a break (Score:5, Insightful)
It is no consolation to say "I know we're slaves now, but we took a long time to get there."
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You miss grandparents point. The Feds will not issue a Federal ID, your alternative. Rather, they will refuse to accept NH ID's until they comply with the Real ID act. So, they just screw over NH citizens while they elect a government that refuses to comply.
I do wish New Hampshire luck. If anyone is stubborn enough, it's them.
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The feds may issue an ID --- which will immediately become the standard for proof of age, ID and citizenship. The next best thing to carrying a U.S. Passport.
Open your wallet. How many cards and badges are you carrying now? How many could you shred if you were carrying a single card meeting the federal standard? All this legislation does is lower the value of any ID issued by New Hampshire.
Canadian Government != U.S. Government (Score:5, Interesting)
Obviously, this database thing does not go over well with a lot of people. The Federal government has a piss-poor history of IT and information security. The whole place, at least on the civilan/unclassified side, leaks like a sieve and loses computers and data at a terrifying rate. The last thing most people want is to be put into a national 'one stop shop' for stalking, ID theft, unwanted "investigation," data mining, etc.
Second: Although Canada and the U.S. are alike in many ways, they're not the same. Attitudes, particularly in regards to government, are quite different. What people find acceptable in Canada -- and what may actually work in Canada -- are not necessarily the same things that will work in the U.S. If you, as a Canadian, say that you have a similar Giant Central Database, and your government uses it responsibly and the whole thing doesn't devolve into a Brazil [imdb.com]ian bureaucratic nightmare, I'll take your word for it. However, that gives me no faith at all that a similar system wouldn't be an absolute terror, were it implemented here. Maybe you have more responsible leaders. Maybe we're paranoid. Maybe the water in D.C. is contaiminated with Brain Slug larvae. Who knows; but I don't trust my government further than I can throw it, and nothing I've seen recently has encouraged me to re-evaluate that decision.
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