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Greek Blog Aggregator Arrested

Posted by kdawson on Sun Oct 29, 2006 04:25 PM
from the careful-what-you-link-to dept.
Censorship
arcanumas writes to tell us that Greek authorities have raided the house of Antonis Tsipropoulos, administrator of the blog aggregation site Blogme.gr. His hard drive was seized and he was arrested. The impetus was a satiric website, not named in the stories, that apparently offended a Greek public figure (also unnamed). The site in question was not hosted by Tsipropoulos but was merely linked to by his RSS fed. From the first article: "The developing story coincides with the Internet Governance Forum being hosted in Athens this week, to be attended by Internet luminaries, entrepreneurs, and activists like Vint Cerf, Bob Kahn, and Joi Ito and featuring panels on Openness and Freedom of Expression."
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  • Monsters (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 29 2006, @04:31PM (#16635524)
    It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster. - Voltaire
    Seems to be a monster in the Greek government. I would love to hear some of the luminaries at the conference discuss this and embaress the Greek govenment publicly.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Are the quotes picked randomly or are they chosen or picked automatically by keywords?
    • Keep in mind that this is a country that still hasn't figured out separation of church and state...

      Greece is generally democratic, but it isn't really a towering symbol of European freedom. So, an article like this should hardly be surprising, when stuff almost as bad as this happens occasionally in the US/UK/Germany/etc.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by misterpib (924404)
        Keep in mind that this is a country that still hasn't figured out separation of church and state...

        Oh, you mean kinda like the USA?
        • No.

          Yes, religion has some effects on U.S governments policies, but that is a given considering laws are made by people and religion is a huge part in many people's beliefs.

          In "Separation of Church and State", "Church" refers to a group, not a set of beliefs. Laws will always be based on beliefs, and many of them will be religious or semi-religious (not based on any solid facts). The idea that we should have freedom of speech is not a scientific law, or mathematic property.

          Laws should be made by an elected g
      • Greece is generally democratic, but it isn't really a towering symbol of European freedom.


        Don't confuse democracy and freedom. They're not the same at all.

        • They are only different in definition. Free societies are uniformly democratic and vice versa (mostly).

          --Joey

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Pig Hogger (10379)

        Keep in mind that this is a country that still hasn't figured out separation of church and state...

        That's not it. It's simpler than that.

        It's "southernness".

        In general, "southern" countries, that is, countries which do not experience overly cold climate have in common the fact that democracy is either poorly developped or a newfangled phenomenon (think of Spain, Greece and Portugal who ditched their fascist dictatorships [often installed by the US] around 30 years ago).

        In these countries, the mild c

          • Do you have any more academic sources for that point of view? That's a very Jared-Diamond-esque way of looking at how geography influences behavior, but neither JD nor anyone else I've read has explicitly tied democracy to a harsh climate (though it makes senes on the gut feeling level.)

            No. It's just my gut feeling.

            Why would some of the world's first (sort-of) democratic societies, ancient Greece and the Roman Republic, have evolved in these "southern" countries?

            Those societies were far from being d

        • Re:Monsters (Score:5, Interesting)

          by chill (34294) on Sunday October 29 2006, @05:08PM (#16635808) Homepage Journal
          Because government and religion are the two main bastions of power. The only way the little guy has a chance is to play them off each other.

          Religion, as a whole, is a very bad thing to base government off of because it is so absolutist. "This is the word of God. You can't argue with God. The gov't is God's will on Earth, so arguing with the gov't is like arguing with God, you heretic." The problem is, God isn't around to run things and the people that do, in His name, are frequently bloody autocrats.

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by Rakishi (759894)
              The blind look towards the past and envision utopias while unable to see all the filth their little eden swam in.

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by drsmithy (35869)

              While there were autocratic episodes (generally by those who turned away from the Church), the rule of the Empire was generally benign and the spiritual well-being of the people was much higher than now, when now much of Greece is experiencing an existential crisis from the empty values imported from the West.

              The separation of Church and State does not remove the former's role as a spiritual leader, merely its ability to be a spiritual dictator.

        • On the other hand, there's no evidence that the concept of 'state' existed for 'most of human history'...unless you count the tribe of humans living in a valley a 'state'.
        • It has existed in various forms before that, it is simply an extension of religious freedom which has existed in Rome for example (as long as you made a gesture of loyalty to the emperor which unfortunately was against Jewish and Christian views). It is interesting to note that the Roman Empire/Republic had a rather large amount of such freedom and is seen as a rather good place. On the other hand the next thousand years in the same area had very little such freedom and is looked down upon with horror.

          • It is interesting to note that the Roman Empire/Republic had a rather large amount of such freedom and is seen as a rather good place. On the other hand the next thousand years in the same area had very little such freedom and is looked down upon with horror.

            You mean the Western part of the same area. The Eastern part of the Roman Empire passed into the Byzantine Empire for the next thousand years, which also had little freedom but is regarded by most modern historians as a productive and civilized socie

            • "Freedom and "good place" do not necessarily coincide."
              As much as we love the idea of Democracy, there are alot of good arguments for a Benevolent Monarchy as the best form of government. The practicle problem seems to be the benevolent part.
          • Actually, IIRC, the (pre-Christian) Romans had a bit of ulterior motive in providing for local autonomy in religious matters - namely, they didn't want to piss off the local gods. One of the reasons that Christians were persecuted against is that Christian soldiers wouldn't worship the local gods, which the other soldiers saw as bad luck.

            I'm afraid I don't have any sources for this, this is just something I heard somewhere.
        • It is the One Acceptable Way, because if the "state supported religions" are "false" then forcing them onto the citizens is an abomination.
          If they are "true" forcing them onto the citizens supresses the difference between trully religious people and cowards that are just afraid of the cops.

          For example currently the worst place to be a good muslim (exept for converts) is in Saudi, since if you are born there of muslim parents NOT being a muslim is forbiden, so if you are a sincere believer and want to share
            • Speakfor yourself, zealot.

              Example: I have no belief in God. Yet, oddly, most people I meet consider me to be one of the nicest persons they've ever met. And, while I don't care if I'm recognized for it or not, I will bend over backwards to assist a cause I think is noble and worthy, even if it's something as simple as helping someone who's gotten a flat tire on the highway.

              So, if it's deeds, I'm going to whatever 'good' version of the afterlife there is - but that's not enough if I'm in a church-mandated
  • Maybe it's time to start using I2P [i2p.net] or similar?
  • If find this link in the main story to be just as alarming or worse: Swedish programmer in Greek spam probe protests innocence [theregister.co.uk]

    The Greek police will arrest you on suspicion of spamming. Given the coincidence they have followed as "reasonable grounds" it would seem anyone that gets a virus or trojan that might scan your address book is in jeopardy if they visit Greece. This is just crazy.
    • Worse.
      There was a guy who had setup a website were he supposedly, for a given price, would find you a job as a civil servant by using his 'connections' to elected official (effectively satirizing the situation in Greece).
      Anyone who who has been on 'the internets' for more than 5 minutes and has an intelligence quotient over 70, could tell it was a joke (it even had badly photoshoped images)
      Guess what happened. Not only was he arrested, but the mainstream media in Greece (tv, etc) reported it as complet

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        He's Dmitri Fotiou. His website was a riot. The lack of intelligence of these Greek authorities is amazing - they didn't even check the HTML. That's how bloody incompetent they are.

        Fotiou still has to report to the police every month. Incredible. They still insist on holding a trial, despite the fact the situation is totally ridiculous.

        See these links for more on the Foutiou story.
        http://rixstep.com/1/0/20060505,00.shtml [rixstep.com]
        http://rixstep.com/1/0/20060507,00.shtml [rixstep.com]

        Visit Dmitri's blog here.
        http://fotiou.net/blog2 [fotiou.net]
    • You are responible for the actions of computer systems that you own. If this were not so, then crackers and spams could just deny that they knew their computers were taking such actions.
      • Sure they can deny it, but in their cases there should be a money trail and source code.
        I'll bet over 50% of computers have had at least some minor level of compromise at sometime, should we jail 50% of the population?

        If you own a computer and someone else, an uncle for instance downloads some kiddy porn on it while you are away are you responsible for this? You should only be held responsible for your actions directly.

        I wouldn't kick if there were some kind of (minor) penalties for your computer be
  • Could be this one: http://funel.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
    Also, the wikipedia entry on Dimosthenis Liakopoulos is very entertaining: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimosthenis_Liakopoul os [wikipedia.org]

  • Freedom of Speech (Score:3, Insightful)

    by photomonkey (987563) on Sunday October 29 2006, @04:46PM (#16635658)

    I know sometimes it's hard for us living in the US to remember that our case of (mostly) free speech is not common in other parts of the world.

    Even Great Britain has no guarantee of free speech, per se.

    Now, if only we could start spreading that around the world instead of spreading DemocracyTM, real democracy might ensue.

    • And here in the US we are dangerously close to loosing what we have. "Free Speech Zones", talk of putting newspaper editors on trial for treason and a goverment which is more and more inclined to shroud itself in secrecy all threaten the rights to which we've become accustomed.
          • To an American, the restrictions in Norway sound appalling. Some Americans would agree with a ban on hate speech in principle, but would sour to the idea when it came to letting someone else decide what hate speech consists of.
            • Right, another way of saying that for our Scandinavian readership is that we feel the most appropriate punishment for hatespeech mongers is to be marginalized and ridiculed.

              I was thinking about the hate speech exclusion in several western European nations the other day listening to a satire on the radio. A man in New York city had on a Nazi helmet (complete with flag) and tried to get a taxi at the same time a black guy was trying to get the cab. In a best of 7 match, the Nazi won 4 to 3. I wonder if that w
    • IS free speech. This is where it starts. ( and remember, that we here in the US dont have a democracy.. never really have.. we have a Representative Republic. However, free speech is still its cornerstone.

      Thus the reason for the first amendment.

      After that, you have to be able to stand up and fght for your rights .. thus the 2nd amendment... This is the mortar that holds the stone of free speech together.

      • we have a Representative Republic

        That's a tautology. Republics are defined, in part, by having representatives.

        Additionally, republics *are* democratic. They aren't democratic in the sense that every single action taken by the state is put up for a vote, but democratic in the sense that the representatives are elected by the people.

        In other words, a republic is a form of democracy. The only reason people (*ALWAYS* from the right-wing, both conservative and libertarian) try to make a distinction between demo

        • How are libertarians right wing? Is it because they aren't left wing? In the standard compass of political beliefs, North is Libertarian, East is Conservative, South is Totalitarianism, and West is Liberal.

          I want people to have power, but I don't want people confused by what we have either. By the way, for American readers, early voting is probably starting this coming week/weekend. There is no excuse to not vote :)

          --Joey
          • You did not address the issue that republics are democracies.

            How are libertarians right wing?

            Because in America, libertarians are right-wing. They identify more with Ronald Reagan than Bill Clinton.

            I want people to have power, but I don't want people confused by what we have either.

            That would be more convincing if you weren't actively trying to deny an integral aspect of our republic--namely that it *is* a democracy.

            By the way, for American readers, early voting is probably starting this coming week/weekend

            • How are libertarians right wing?

              Because in America, libertarians are right-wing. They identify more with Ronald Reagan than Bill Clinton.

              I am not sure that makes them right wing. Plus I tend to think that most people approach libertarianism from the left or the right. I tend to approach from the right, because I view fiscal issues as being more important than social ones. I may not be a Libertarian but I am libertarian and registered as a Republican.

              I didn't address the democrac

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by LabRatty (96497)
      You may not be near a dictatorship, but you are not as good as you seem to think you are. And certainly not better than the UK.

      Freedom of the press survey - http://www.worldaudit.org/press.htm [worldaudit.org]

      Including democracy and corruption figures - http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm [worldaudit.org]
        • No, homosexual activities have been observed in animals which have lived hundreds of millenia before Man formed coherent speech.
  • I don't want to scare my buddies in the aggregator "business", but this is bad news if the arrests happen in the West too. Aggregators aren't huge in the American blogosphere, but they get lots of traffic in Canada, where Blogging Tories, Progressivebloggers.ca [progressivebloggers.ca] and even local ones like Sask Blogs Aggregator [catprint.ca] get more traffic than most individual bloggers.

    Lance at Saskblogs has a nice little disclaimer:

    Disclaimer:

    Catprint Computing, Lance Levsen, and the blog, "Catprint in the Mash" does not endorse and is n

  • Meanwhile, in the USA.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Pharmboy (216950) on Sunday October 29 2006, @04:53PM (#16635708) Journal
    I still find it ironic that I get a lot of trash talk about how "unfree" speech is the US, yet I see US policitians call each other worse stuff during any election cycle, and no one goes to jail. Just as you can't have a pro-nazi site in Germany, and a host of other restrictions in every other country.

    We have our own problems here in the States, (ie: 2600 getting sued for linking to DeCSS code...) but at least pretty much anything goes when it comes to politicians.

  • Name of the accusor (Score:4, Informative)

    by Project2501a (801271) on Sunday October 29 2006, @05:04PM (#16635780) Homepage Journal
    the name of the suitor is Dimosthenis Liakopoulos, a well-known tv-bookseller and demagogue in Greece, who also "happens" to belong to the ultra-right wing in Greece I'm Greek, and i got to say I find myself being ashamed one more time, after the "Greece bans Videogames" thingie
  • And there's so much talk on here (particularly by foreigners) about how bad the U.S. has gotten. I guess nobody in Greece allows unmoderated comments on their blogs ...

    • Re:How? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by thanasakis (225405) on Sunday October 29 2006, @05:13PM (#16635840)
      Obviously it is not illegal. The guy was set free the next day. And after all this publicity, I suspect that he will have no problem being acquited in trial.

      This is yet another example of litigation used as a means of threat. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen around Greece only. The guys that started all this probably don't have a chance in court, but they sure caused a whole lot of trouble to that guy. I only hope that he will countersue them for moral damage and demand a shitload of money in compensation.

    • That's the gist of it. No one in Europe wants another Hitler/Mussolini/Stalin type debacle, and they think that making people say only nice things will keep the peace.
      • Reading comprehension, my friend. He didn't say to look around for how many minorities there *are*, he said to ask the government how many *it* *thinks* there are. The difference between what the government thinks and reality can be surprisingly large.
      • Just north of Greece, there is an area that used to be called Yugoslavia. There are three major ethnic groups there. The two largest groups are the Serbs, who are Eastern Orthodox Slavs, and the Croats, who are Roman Catholic Slavs. The third-largest group are...the Muslims.
        And guess what it was in the news for the most in the last decade or so? Ethnic cleansing, also known as genocide, from a Serb named Slobodan Milosevich.

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