Sony UK Refused P2P Software Patent 126
blane.bramble writes "The Register reports that Sony cannot patent inventions in the UK that remove the anonymity of the peer-to-peer (P2P) user experience. Sony tried to patent a method of passing around user reviews of shared files, but the UK Patent Office rejected it, and then rejected it again on appeal. The article indicates the patents were rejected because the 'inventions' were not eligible for patenting. " From the article: "When a P2P user downloads a piece of content from another user's computer, be it a song or a game or a movie, he normally knows nothing about that user - or where that user obtained the content. Sony's proposal would change that experience. Sony describes a method for attaching a user history to content when it is shared among computers or other devices. When one user downloads a song, he can see who had it last and what he thought about it."
honestly... (Score:4, Insightful)
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he who can, does (Score:1)
It's not like they can't be the first to market and then patent their implementation, or protect their network by encryption or other means.
Re:he who can, does (Score:5, Informative)
While it may seem unfair to inventors, going on a first to file policy is theoretically more fair and effective in the long run than a first to invent policy; If you think patent trolls and submarine patents are bad, imagine what someone (party A) could do by surreptiously inventing a tech, documenting the invention without releasing the information to the public, then waiting for someone (party B) else to invent the same tech, patent it and actually bring it to market. Party A could then retroactively coopt the patent and demand exorbitant fees from the Party B with a much stronger bargaining chip than they otherwise would have, as party B has already invested a lot of capital into manufacturing, advertising, supply chain, etc. With a first to file policy, there is a public record of the patent so party B would know in advance whether the tech is available or not, and therefore be able to know in advance what the costs involved with production (I.E. whether they will have to pay a liscensing fee on the tech.)
Although this brings up another odd conundrum with patents. They can be quite detrimental to innovation if the license holder does not bring the patented idea to market and does not actively shop out the patent to be licenced. Basically, if the tech is not in some product on the market, another party researching along the same lines would have very little way of knowing that what they are researching has been patented untill enough R&D has been done that they could independantly file a patent on the same idea. Without enough information to file their own patent, it would be difficult to search the available literature and listed patents to find if the idea has been patented yet, especially if the patent is written in an obfuscated (whether intentional or not) manner. If the tech has already been brought to market, it is likely that researchers in the field would be familiar with the competition and the workins of the competitors products and know at a much earlier stage whether the product they are developing is indeed innovative. If the patent holder is actively shopping the patent out, it is likely that the promotional materials presented would have a much more clear synopsis of what the patent actually covers than actually reading the patent itself.
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In the US, a prior inventor only gets priority over a later inventor (the later inventor filing the patent application first) IF the prior inventor worked diligently toward making the invention work and filing a patent application AND did not abandon the invention. So any kind of "waiting" is likely to ruin the patent claim of the earlier inventor.
First to file makes things simpler for the patent office and the courts, but I wouldn't say that the current US system is easy to abuse. Instead,
Re:he who can, does (Score:4, Informative)
This is a common mistake. You dont have to patent with first to file, you just need to publish it. Once it's been published, it's unpatentable as prior art, both by you yourself or anyone else.
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That's a good point. But, if publication can ruin patentability so easily, it would put a much greater burden on researchers and inventors to carefully screen the information they release. Currently, they have up to a year to file for a patent application even after publication of their invention. If the new system
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Even if "first to file" comes about in the U.S., there is no guarantee that there will also be a new "absolute novelty" requirement -- we may very well keep the current 35 U.S.C. 102 novelty rules.
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Note I'm not disagreeing with you or with grand-grandparent (who said it sounded like an interesting idea). I simply find that basing your business primarily on having a lock on the market by patents is not particularly "nice." They could pursue
Re:honestly... (Score:5, Informative)
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http://www.ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-83 499.html [ubuntuforums.org]
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Sony, what a bunch of dorks.
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Nightmare scenario (Score:5, Funny)
"John Q. Public says: MUST SEE!!! h0t b3atch3s p7mp3d 1n 411 h0l3s!!!"
Since The Kid used the latest version of Jonny-Rev13wZ-it.EXE, each of your "reviews" will be unique of course. The time stamps of the reviews will be spoofed so that they are spread out over the last few years, starting with late night reviews, then adding in early morning reviews, then lunch hour reviews, then, finally, within the past few weeks, work-day reviews. Some of your reviews might even contain samples of phrases gleaned from your blog and other emails of yours floating around the internet, to add to the apparent authenticity. Then he anonymously reports you to the FBI, because undoubtedly some of those reviews are attached to material which would qualify you for special treatment in the Federal penitentiary where you will, most likely, live out your days. Unless, of course, you are lucky enough to be acquitted by a jury with a high tolerance for techno-babble.
Meanwhile, you won't be able to get a date with any girl savvy enough to Google you.
Unless you must first submit a notarized copy of your "review" along with your X.509 certificate and two forms of valid government issued photo identification at the county courthouse, No, thanks.
Re:Nightmare scenario (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:honestly...NOT COOL AT ALL (Score:2)
See my comments below on how this is a Stealth Attack on P2P. This is not a cool feature at all, in the present climate, but is being sold as one to people like you who don't realize the ramifications of it. Wise up!
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Been there, done that.. Prior art (Score:4, Informative)
To attach a comment, all you need to have is the complete file.
To view a comment, you need to have it in your download list. You see each comment together with the (optional) rating, and the authors nick.
If a file has comments attached, a tiny green or red exclamation mark is displayed next to its name in the transfer window. A green icon stands for comments with positive or absent rating. A red icon indicates the presence of negative ratings.
Emule users tend to mark fakes with negative ratings, and you can spot them by the red icon shortly after the download has started.
This feature is implemented in Emule since at least 2 years (probably more).
Regards,
Marc
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And then Sony sells the way to read that info to the RIAA/MPAA/all other Assholes... Oh, and Sony forogt to tell you that they are also including uniquely identifying information for each user who had downloaded it. Now they can find a file once and have a full history of many more people to sue; all coming with nice, uniquely identifiable tags to ease the legal proceedings.
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I'd imagine lawful users who require P2P, as opposed to traditional publishing methods, should be the most scared by this.
If you're using P2P this is usually because you don't want someone to know what you are copying; not because it is a copyright violation, but because of what it is expressing (e.g.: material critical of governments, or large criminal syndicates or protection rackets like, say, the RIAA/Sony/et al). (The danger being, obviously, that if such people knew you were expressing such opinion
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With Sony's "p2p" user review system, you'll be facing the consequences of power law networks, in which the number of versions of the attached comments could be as many as the number of copies of the media. You copy a file from my system, make a change, now your version is different than mine. Ad-infinitum. Comments won't travel together.
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Does it work? yes. Is it really that helpful? No, not really. Occasionally I'll comment on something, but only if its a popular file and if people have asked whether the file in question actually works, etc.
What the RIAA would *love* to do is patent this idea, which obviously has already been created by countless others, so that it may sue the hell out of the name
Seems as though... (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviousness doesn't matter (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but... (Score:2, Insightful)
They are trying to game the system (Score:3, Interesting)
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It was turned down because it's about software, not because it's obvious.
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Why would Sony Do this? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Au contraire (Score:3, Insightful)
If Sony actually got the ball rolling, so every file you ever shared is for ever marked as downloaded from you, the RIAA would probably be in so much joy that they'd ejaculate in their pan
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Strange Focus (Score:3, Interesting)
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Gotta love Sony... (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe we should all just give in and let Sony tell us what to watch, listen to, and buy as well?
FTA: "The patent application explains: "For example, the user, Clark Kent, may give a classic jazz music file a rating of '7' and include the user comment 'like cool man'. Also, instead of using his true identity ('Clark Kent'), Clark uses an alias, 'Superman.'" Clark may also choose to supply his email address."
Come on Sony, this is a flawed example, everyone knows that Clark Kent can hear everything with his super-hearing, and he doesn't need no stinkin' P2P applications!
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If so, it's a totally assinine business plan. "Look, all you pirates out there! We can't track you now, but if you use our *NEW* P2P technology, we will be able to do so. Of course, since we own the patent on the technology, this tracking won't be able to be added to new versions of Kazaa, etc. You will have to pay us big money to use the K3WL new SonyAza!". Yeah, I'm sure this will attract
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Sony didn't invent it. It was developed by SunnComm Technologies. Sure, Sony used it, but they didn't have a hand in the development.
then they want to change the P2P system to identify file sharers.
From TFA, it says that when you download a file it will show you the username of the person you are getting it from, a comment, and a rating. How is that any different from eMule or LimeWire?
On the other hand... (Score:5, Insightful)
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That's what it's ultimately for, of course. (Go ahead, call me a cynic.)
But I gotta admit, it's dead clever of them to come up with a tracking system that actually adds value.
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Please put me in your will.
Sony development (Score:1)
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UK European Patent convention (Score:5, Interesting)
In the past ten years the European Patent Office tried to establish case law which perverted the EPC and created the EU software patent mess. As we see now, patentability advocats are on retreat thanks to the intense lobbying of software patent critics. And the courts follow.
The major task is now to gain ground and continue advocacy. What Sony proposes here is no INVENTION. So no surprise that it is not patentable.
What will be further crucial is the US getting real and abolishing software and business method patents.
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But according to the article, the application was not rejected for lack of novelty (ie. inventiveness), but rather due to subject matter. The subject matter which is patentable has nothing to do with invention and everything to do with the kind of social contract the citizens of a country want to make with inventors.
Re:UK European Patent convention (Score:4, Informative)
I am afraid. Subject matter defines what constitutes an invention on a fundamental level.
When a patent fails on subject matter it is not only that no patent is granted but the application is also a non-invention in Europe.
Very good btw. this is exactly the way it should be applies.
Article 52,2 defines what is at least to be considered a non-inventions by subject matter. Article 52,3 makes sure that patents on inventions can be granted regardless that they involve the components of Art 52.2, a loophole which was abused.
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I still believe that what is patentable is simply based on a cost-benefit analysis that results in a social contract. Or maybe I should say "was" since we seem to be forgetting that rationale and moving away from it.
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a) non-inventions such a as organisational rules or algorithms
b) inventions
b1) patentable - novelty, inventive step, technical character
b2) non-patentable -
"I still believe that what is patentable is simply based on a cost-benefit analysis that results in a social contract." - In theory that is a useful approach but it never happens. I would word it like that. "A patent system is an incentive tool you as a society apply top a certain field provided
A software patent refused? (Score:1)
(I know this is the UK patent office, but with Blair being Bush's lapdog and all...)
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I see you use the type of dog in the UK, rather than gender.
How is this pantentable, anyway? (Score:2)
Because otherwise someone will sue them (Score:4, Interesting)
To use your car rental example, imagine this: so you have your car rental, as in your example, and you start letting users write reviews and rate the cars they drove. I'll also assume it's in a program (e.g., an internet site where the users can book cars ahead of time, for when they arrive in your city), so it's relevant to the software patents disaster. So you're a good guy and think to yourself, "self, wth, it's just a common sense extension of what already happens with books, movies, etc, and it's not even that useful anyway" and you don't patent it.
So two years from now, when you've made a fair bit of cash and maybe even expanded into a new city, some patent troll sues you on account that it infringes on their "user-review system for car rentals" patent. (Which the patent office gladly granted, since prior art was about books, movies, etc, not about car rentals. So obviously it's a great innovation to copy it verbatim to car rentals too.)
At this point it may not even matter whether you win or lose, since patent lawsuits are the most expensive kind. You can win it and still go bankrupt because of the expenses. But chances are good that you'll not even manage to win it, since someone had clearly patented it a good year before your site went online, and you have obviously infringed on their patent.
So what what everyone is doing is hoarding patents as an aggressive defense. In that:
1. If you patent that first, you can't be sued later.
2. If they sue you for something else, you hope that they infringed on some of yours too, so you can counter-sue them into the stone age. (Of course, this doesn't work against pure patent-trolls, who never actually have a product or service of their own.)
There's nothing behind that curtain. (Score:1)
Not really a surprise (Score:5, Informative)
It is not surprising that the court has rejected the patent. Most EU courts reject software patents or business method patents even though the EPO (European Patent Office) will grant them happily (contrary to the text and spirit of the patent convention). So that court did its job and rejected something that should never be patentable in Europe.
However, this could change in the future: the EPO is lobbying for establishing a "(European) Community Patent" process and for having a single European patent court, which would rule in case of patent disputes like this one. Given that the judges in that new court would probably come from the EPO, there is a high risk that they would grant the patent.
Time to support the FFII [ffii.org] and the FSF Europe [fsf-europe.org]...
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You are right. The article mentions that the rejection was issued by "Patent Office Hearing Officer Bruce Westerman". Thanks for the clarification. But that should not prevent you from supporting the FFII and FSF Europe...
Found Somewhat Prior art (Score:2)
Do they still use sign out cards?
Give me a break (Score:2)
-Eric
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No worries. Sony can still go ahead and do it (Score:2, Insightful)
Suspicions (Score:4, Insightful)
I would be suspicious of P2P from a media company. Especially one that gives the user more ... identity.
From TFA:
Then the RIAA could descend wrathfully on this supposed uber-pirate. Even if the guy used a psuedomym, like the article suggests, the system would probably have some sort of personally identifiable information on him that the RIAA could get the court to subpoena the information, or Sony could just give it to them.
I think the only way that I would consider this feature a good thing is if it had no "identity," which would only as useful as the comment metadata that you can already put on files you share in some systems. Either that, or if it was part of a system where you already had an identity, like that subscription thing Sony did with Playlouder that the article talkied about. This might be all that Sony was planning to do with this anyway.
Anyway, I would be hesitant to jump into this. I'm suspicious.
Also, I wouldn't want to have to deal with the implications of
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But then how would you know Expert Recommender actually works for Sony, which is how he 'consistently... [gets] interesting content before other users' sounds like a perfect setup for astroturfing to me.
Why it wasn't available for patenting (Score:2)
Why was the first thing that came to my mind... (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead of thinking that this might be a useful feature to actually discriminate between good and bad content, why was the first thing I was thinking about the question how Sony would use this feature to rip me off? The idea itself sounds quite interesting...
Riiiiiight! Defensive patent! If you patent it, nobody can implement it. Nobody could rate their fakes down into the basement when they try to poison the seeds of torrents and eMule.
gotcha!
Stealth attack on P2P (Score:5, Interesting)
This is clearly a stealth attack on P2P. A wolf in sheep's clothing. By attaching a history to every file you've altered the file. That ends multi-homed downloads since every bit changed in a file changes it hash code and makes it not match any other version. As such, a file like this would only be able to be downloaded from one source, provided that they have the whole file, and stay on line long enough for you to receive it.
And just what evidence such a file on your machine might provide in court is equally dangerous. You would no longer be able to claim you ripped the file yourself, even if you were holding the CD in your hand, because their lawyer would point to its trail around the Internet in reaching you. Bad Move!!
Sony clearly does not have P2P user's interests at heart as they tout this as a must have feature for the future of P2P.
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One possibility is that nobody would go with a standard that Sony put out for this sort of thing, since the standards body would see right through it. However, if Sony offered a product like this, and you don't care much for their copyrights to begin with, why would you mind writing a clone into your P2P client?
It all starts to sound like hokey conspiracy theories at that point, but, eh, it was my first thought
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(N.b. it would be trivially easy to transfer file and metadata under separate hashes to allow multihomed downloads to work with such a system; you'd have to determine some set of rules for how to merge the multiple different metadata records into s single consolidated record, bu
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That aside, software patents are by definition bogus, and they were right to deny it no matter *what* its motivation was.
What? (Score:1)
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Thus, it is easy to label fakes, spam, viruses and so on. It makes it harder to "poison" the P2P system with fakes and questionable payload. You download something, label it crap if it is and the next person knows he needn't download it for it is a fake anyway.
Now, it ain't been too long ago that some studios had the brill
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Re:What? MOD PARENT UP (Score:2)
Gee...that 's a good idea (Score:1)
Given Sony's track record what do you think their real motivation is?
It's a sad day when... (Score:1)
sort of useless (Score:2, Insightful)
Paranoia? (Score:1)
poor sony (Score:4, Funny)
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Death of MP3? (Score:2)
Simple solution for Sony... (Score:3, Funny)
All they have to do is convince the US Patent and Trademark Office to patent the process of granting patents. Then the USPTO can go after those unscrupulous Brits who dare to abuse the God-given American right to patent the hell out of everything.
What? You don't think Tony the (paper) Tiger Blair would bend over for this?
The bit that surprised me... (Score:2, Insightful)
Sony's patent agent, Dr Jonathan DeVile [..] said the examiners were wrong, that the inventions cannot be a program for a computer because, in operation, there are at least two computers involved, communicating over a network.
Dear lord, what interesting hoops that man's mind must be able to jump through to earn his paycheck. Doctor of what? Some bizarre form of n-dimensional logic where if you throw your bullshit far enough it comes back as the truth?
Nelson: Ha Ha! (Score:2)
They'll be walkin' the plank soon lads, soon.
After the rootkit debacle, anything that goes bad for Sony is music to my ears! They (and their **AA cronies) seem to be losing their grip on reality more every day. They are starting to sound desperate and panicky. w00t!
Because it's a software patent... (Score:2)
Sony can use the tech, they just can't force other media companies to pay them for it.