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Proposal to Implant RFID Chips in Immigrants
Posted by
Zonk
on Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:34 PM
from the goes-over-like-a-ton-of-bricks dept.
from the goes-over-like-a-ton-of-bricks dept.
John3 writes "Some people are OK with voluntarily implanting themselves with RFID chips, but how about making RFID implantation mandatory for immigrant and guest workers? VeriChip Corporation chairman Scott Silverman has proposed implanting RFID chips to register workers as they cross the border. According to Silverman, 'We have talked to many people in Washington about using it...' Privacy advocates see this move by VeriChip as a way to introduce their product to Latin America after a lukewarm reception in North America. Would immigrant workers trade their privacy for the opportunity to work in the U.S.? If this type of tracking is enacted, how long before the government decides to start tracking others for various purposes (for example, pedophiles who are released from prison)?"
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Ask Slashdot: Social Consequences and Effects of RFID Implants? 531 comments
kramdam asks: "Even with all the talk about privacy and security, there seems to be a growing community of people who are implanting themselves with RFID chips. Being a developer myself, I am intrigued about building applications and solutions that will open my doors, unlock my car, log me on to my computer and control home automation. I'm seriously considering jumping into this head first, being on the bleeding edge, and going with an implant. I have looked at resources like Mikey Sklar's site, and Amal Graafstra's site, since they are two pioneers on this subject. For research, I have started TaggedLife to document my own journey. I was wondering what the Slashdot community think about this. What do you think are the social, security, privacy, and health risks associated with this? What are the pluses? Would you do it?"
[+]
VeriChip Implants 222 People With RFID 306 comments
cnet-declan writes "Anyone remember VeriChip, a company that came up with the idea of implanting chips in humans for tracking them? They've been behind ideas like RFID tagging immigrant and guest workers at the border, and they've persuaded a former Bush Health Secretary to get himself chipped. In this CNET News.com article, we offer an update on how successful the idea has been. It turns out that, according to IPO documents, 222 people have been implanted, with sales revenue of $100,000."
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Yay! (Score:5, Informative)
BTW, that was sarcasm... NSA rapes your phones, and now this... makes me sick...
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, his company was doing just fine back in the day.
If I remember correctly, it was called Veri-Brand(tm) back then.
Parent
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Interesting)
Im an immigrant, I moved here legally, from the UK, ive paid thousands of dollars just to be here, i contribute a lot of money to the US economy and employee a number of US workers... and for my efforts to play by the rules, to hand over money for fees, to wait and wait and wait patiently on different sides of the atlantic, and to fill in god knows how many forms and pay more fees.. I get the opportunity to be chipped.
Thanks for that, next youll be telling me I could have brought a cheap plane ticket, stayed here past my visa experation and payed less in fines than the fees i paid and granted would have been granted 'amnesty'... oh, wait..
Parent
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)
like a criminal at the US port of entry (including fingerprinting). I doubt that
I would have come if I had to be chipped to do it.
Back then I had a perception of the US as a 'land of the free'. It is becoming less so,
OTOH so is the UK.
Counteless patriots have died to defend the freedoms we now so happily fritter away.
Now chipping ex cons (provided that it is the law at the time they commit their crime,
and that it is part of the sentence) seem altogether more reasonable to me.
Parent
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)
So how do you chip illegals? Do you do it when they sneak in?
Parent
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Yay! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yay! (Score:4, Insightful)
Behold! Ignorance at work! Did you ever consider, EVEN ONCE that perhaps the reason that Americans won't take those jobs is because the massive Illegal immigration over the last 30 years has reduced the wage levels for those jobs so low that no American could afford to take them?
I have a friend who used to live in the southwest (New Mexico) in the 80's. He owned a Housing construction and subcontracting company, and was an honest man. He refused to hire anyone who couldn't pass a full background check. As Illegal immigration began to become more and more of an issue, his competitors, some of whom were less scrupulous than he, started to hire the Illegals to work for them. The Illegals would work so cheap that he was literally priced right out of the market. By the time his business folded, every single one of his employees had either left the state, or left the trade. Illegal Immigration killed his business.
He had roots in the Northeast, and moved back here and re-started his life. He recently told me that he was starting to see the same kinds of issues with Illegal Immigrants here in the northeast that he saw back in the southwest in the 80's. He's nearing retirement age, and just hopes to survive long enough to be able to retire semi-comfortably.
Don't want illegal immigrants working on farms? Expect to pay more for your groceries. Don't want legal immigrants? Be prepared to live with a lower standard of living.
This is what Illegal Immigration does: It doesn't HELP the economy, it HURTS it. Illegal Immigrants take jobs that American WILL DO, and increase the rolls of the working poor. This puts an ever-increasing burden on the already strained social services, and put the American economy in danger of going into a tailspin of plummeting wage rates and skyrocketing inflation.
Now, this is VERY different from LEGAL Immigration, which brings in high-skilled labor and improves the economy. But, of course, this is too fine a distinction to make for some, who would rather demagouge the issue and simply call those who want the laws to be respected "bigots".
Stop painting the issue with such a broad and incorrect brush. All most Americans want is for the LAWS TO BE OBEYED. If you can't respect and obey our laws in coming here, then we don't want you. It's that simple.
As far as the chipping thing, I'd only be comfortable with it being done with parolees and ex-cons. I'm not comfortable with chipping otherwise law-abiding citizens.
Yeah, I know my opinions on Illegal Immigration won't win me any mod points, but I don't care. It's the truth, wether you mod me down for it or not.
Parent
Re:Out of curosity (Score:5, Insightful)
People view the Third Reich as a lawless, despotic regime, which is far from historic fact. Undeniable, especially during the last days of the war, and hence of the Reich, the law wasn't much respected. Never the less, most that happened during Hitlers time was according to German law of the time.
Another troll (and a pommy who should know better) mentioned something about "if they tag cons"...what about the visa violation convict? See convict and criminal are words that people like to use to destinguish themselves from the "good ones", but a label does not make factual evidence.
I use to highly regard the US of A for their stand on privacy, having grown up in Germany, where every one is required to be in possesion of an ID card. Then I learnt more about Social Security Numbers. Then they introduced finger printing of visitors. Then I learnt about the differences in privacy and data retention laws, and now I laugh at US citizens, because they will soon feel the guilt Germans have been carrying around with themselves for the past 60 years. All the time feeling smug about themselves. Immigrants not carrying about the political nature, just interested in being on the winners side. Just like back then, the Tschechs, the Poles, the French...
We are living on a slippery slope, with an increasing tilt.
Parent
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)
Just my $.02,
Ron
Parent
A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, I think that the idea is hilarious, this reminded me of MI-3, they surely will have to implant those chips with those mini bombs. Because if they dont do it, I am completely sure immigrants (at least mexicans) will just "un-implant" the chips and put it in a secure place like their home or things like that. Do not underestimate the power
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Interesting)
About the only Mexican side of this debate you hear on US TV is from the illegal immigrants already hear and people on the other side of the border (the Mexican side) who are worried it will become harder to cross.
That said, you have presented an opportunity that I can't pass up to ask you a question. What do you think about the Mexican government's role in this immigration debate? Specifically it seems to me they are the problem. We don't have Canadians flooding into the country because Canada is very good shape.
From everything I've heard Mexico has some serious problems in this area. My understanding is that 10% of Mexican citizens are living in the US (either legally or not). 12% of the Mexican work force is working in the US (again, legally or not). I have heard estimations that if flow of money from workers and families in the US to their relatives back home in Mexico were to be stopped, the Mexican economy would collapse. According to the figures I can find the underemployment/unemployment rate in Mexico is as high as 25%.
Do Mexicans blame their government for all this? Is there anything of a movement to get it fixed, or is it just easier to try to get the US government to help by taking on people?
Of course, Bush can't say any of this because we have to try to keep relations with Mexico good. Why the media doesn't mention this more would surprise me if I didn't think them all so crooked.
What do you think of the "Pay backed taxes, a fine, and prove you know English and you can become a citizen" proposal? Obviously that is somewhat simplified.
My last question is, does the issue of illegal immigration strike you as ironic at all? There are so many people (and groups, which I don't understand) that are pushing for (illegal) immigrant rights in the US and saying they should be treated like citizens. But illegal immigrants into Mexico from South and Central America face robbing, beatings, rapes, and other terrible fates from Mexican officials if they are caught. Mexico is not kind to those who sneak in, yet the President of the country is asking the US to be kind to those who sneak in. Is that issue raised at all in the Mexican media?
I don't mean to offend you, I've never heard answers to these questions and I am genuinely curious. I'll be glad to answer anything I can for you with my opinions.
Parent
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:3, Informative)
"are you sure about that? [newstandardnews.net]"
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Funny)
How ironic, I'm an American who knows he'll never need to go to Mexico, and I'm always saying "fuck the Mexican government."
And, to make things better, I am a Mexican who knows that one day he is going to have to return to Mexico and I am always saying "Fuck the Mexican government".
I'm a Canadian...what the fuck is going on down there?
Parent
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe we should borrow Canadian border guards to man the US-Mexico border. You never hear about Americans sneaking over to Canada, they must be doing something right!
Parent
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, hell no!
(*upon further thought*)
mandatory chipping for the following:
- politicians
- lawyers
and last but not least
- a certain chairman working for VeriChip Corp.
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:3, Funny)
I think you spelled 'dollars' wrong
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't have to get chipped, but no loyal, patriotic citizen would conceiveably refuse...ergo, if you refuse, you automatically make the 'short list' of terror suspects.
The 'short list' is only called that by comparison...everybody is on the 'long list'.
Parent
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Funny)
Aha! But, your pet might be EATEN by another animal. This is how your favorite poodle can polymorph into a pit bull.
Parent
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes it is a slippery slope, if you're going to fuck people over do it incrementally, they'll accept it much easier that way. If immigrants etc were chipped how long do you think it would be before someone suggested various other segments of the population could usefully be chipped? Mmm? you might trust the government you have now but what about the one 5, 10 or 15 years down the line?
I've spent the last 18 years of my life writing systems that need to identify people, to say whether they've payed their rent or not, what care are they getting from social services, is their library book overdue or not, the list is endless. From a purely job based perspective, yes, chip the buggers from birth. From a purely personal perspective, come near me with a chipping device and I'll take your arm off and beat you to death with the soggy end.
Technology is neither good or evil, the uses it's put to are another matter, the danger is once it's out of the box you can't put it back in.
Parent
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly I'm disgusted that anyone would seriously consider this. Seriously, would you claim it was just the "price of admission" if you were required to get one before you could vote, or perhaps if you were required to have on implanted into you at birth before your citizenship would be official?
Implanting chips into people like they were a cow or your dog is just disgusting, it's treating people as less than people simply because they were born in a different country. I just can't see why having a passport that says "U.S." means you should be entitled to basic human dignity, while having one that says "Mexico" means you should be treated like an animal. But that's what supporting this proposal is arguing.
Parent
Re:A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Insightful)
Such a claim is dehumanizing, regardless of its intent. RFID for people is exactly like yellow cards for Jews. The cards had the effect of intimidating and humiliating.
RFID for people is *not* like a visa (the "price of entry into a country") in these ways:
Parent
wait a second.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:wait a second.... (Score:5, Informative)
Before you go all "1984" on our asses, take a moment to stop and realize that this is the company that SELLS THE CHIPS making the proposal, NOT the government.
Are you sure about that? [newstandardnews.net]
Parent
Re:wait a second.... (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:wait a second.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:wait a second.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Your argument is nothing more than straw man flamebait, but it's late Friday afternoon, and I'm bored, so sure...I'll play:
Given that it's much easier to just shoot detractors than hold an electio
There's the flaw in your argument. It's much easier to hold a rigged election then it is to shoot detractors.
Disinformation is far easier and works far more effectively than brute force in oppressing populations. If you don't agree with this, just watch Fox and Friends for a little while.
Parent
Re:wait a second.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Two problems:
Yes, it is a 'slight leap', if you take the long view. But things like this are seldom done all at once...they are usually introduced by degrees. Give the populace long enough to get used to an idea, and you can sell them almost anything.
Parent
Re:wait a second.... (Score:3, Insightful)
whereas the article in the /. story discusses the CEO of the chip company who wants to implant chips in people.
Implanting chips in people != implanting chips in visas, even if you have to carry the visa (tinfoil, anyone?)
Re:wait a second.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
It's not such a simple equation (Score:3, Insightful)
If this company bribes the right politicians, and promises some kind of benefit to a given congressman's state, then it WILL happen.
Provided the congresscritter believes the public won't get too freaked out by the results. The folks in Congress are still elected. Also, there are plenty of other private interests that are likely opposed to RFID tagging of immigrants. After all, business lobbies are already putting up a fight [washingtonpost.com] against more restrictive immigration controls.
For every private interest or pu
Did they learn nothing from Guantanamo Bay? (Score:5, Insightful)
Can this be more obvious?
Re:Did they learn nothing from Guantanamo Bay? (Score:5, Insightful)
I fear that that's exactly the point they will be making. "Hey, we've been chipping immigrants for a while, and the program has yielded great benefits! The technology is proven, there's no reason we shouldn't have every U.S. citizen chipped!"
All entirely voluntary, of course...with the tacit understanding that anyone who refuses obviously has something to hide, and immediately becomes a 'terror suspect'...
Parent
Re:Did they learn nothing from Guantanamo Bay? (Score:5, Insightful)
That breaks my brain. Once you make that leap, then *everyone* is your enemy and you grab a gun and just start shooting until there's nobody left, to keep yourself safe.
Which, basically, is what the USA is doing in the world at large. There are lots of people who don't see a problem with this, maybe even a majority of Americans.
Parent
What the FUCK? (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, um, what? Just a marketing ploy? Just looking to get more market share?
In other news, The Burger King Corporation has finished constructing it's first run of biomechanical overlord drones. These drones have been shown to be capable of both mind control and world domination. Market Analysts see this as a ploy to increase the Whopper's market share, as the Big Mac has rapidly been gaining popularity.
Business as usual (Score:4, Interesting)
All they had to find was the lowest rung on the ladder of american society.
Surprised they didn't go with pedophiles TBH. It's probably because they were already on with the immigrant thing.
How does this solve the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Obscene violation of human rights: Check
Increased power given to government: Check
Does not help solve any real problem: Check
Sounds like another winner from the people that brought you the Real ID Card and Airline Profiling.
Slippery Slope (Score:5, Insightful)
All right, I'm taking off my tinfoil hat now, but this is still a bad idea.
Chipping People -- any people -- is a BAD idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Someone apologized on this page for mis-quoting Niemöller but the principle is the same. Chipping people in exchange for the right to work is to succumb to a significant component of was obviously wrong with society in the movie, Gattaca [imdb.com].
Someone, please, shut VeriChip up before the really repressive countries in the world get hold of their technology and decide that it's just one more tool to manage what woul
This is what happens if you put COWBOYS to office (Score:3, Funny)
Natural, as all they know about the outside world can be summarized as ; 'cows'
Americans. Stand up. It is your freedom on the line next.
There's already moves to track pedophiles with GPS (Score:3, Interesting)
A few states have already begun tracking pedophiles via GPS - see this Fox News story [foxnews.com] about it.
FTFA -
"Many states are initiating programs that track registered sex offenders using Global Positioning Satellites, or GPS, sometimes for life. GPS can track the exact location of the offenders at all times, making it easier for law enforcement to ensure that they're abiding with the terms of their release.
It sounds like an efficient system: Authorities can keep track of dangerous sex offenders without having to keep them in prison at taxpayers' expense."
While I'm not defeding pedophiles (surely it's painted that way - "If you don't want GPS on pedos, then you're with them!"), where do we go next? GPS tracking for drug offenses? DUI? And what happens when people can track these GPS recievers? Scary stuff - what ever happened to paying your debt to society once you got out of jail?
Slippery slope? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, let's go ahead and tag immigrants. And pedophiles. And murderers. And rapists. Any got a problem with that? (I'm going to ignore the fact that pedphiles were the next logical step after immigrants for the time being...)
Ok, how about hackers? Jaywalkers? IP pirates? Yes, I know the whole "Slippery slope" argument is technically a fallacy, but when you're dealing with the government, it tends to be the norm. When has the gov't ever been happy with a limit on their power once a particular "right" is stripped away?
I think we all need to agree that nobody needs to be "tagged" for any reason. We have a right to have our identity hidden unless we have performed actions which forfeit this right. You have the right to refuse to show identification to a law enforcement officer if they do not have probable cause. (Before I get lots of cries of foul, Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court of Nev. still requires "suspicious activity") All that goes out the window though if all an officer has to do is wave a wand at you.
Re:Slippery slope? (Score:4, Informative)
What if I say that implementing a law that allows police to use lethal force when dealing with terrorists is a slippery slope as it would make future laws allowing police to use lethal force in other situations more likely? As long as you accept that the enactment of the first law makes the others more likely, which in this case we do because it softens public resistance to them, the argument holds.
Parent
What's good for the goose ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I propose that we enact legislation to track all politicians who hold governmental offices. That way we can make sure that they aren't up to no good.
Slimy Politician: This new energy policy was not influenced by the oil industry.
Citizen/Reporter: Then why does your location log indicate you visited the major oil companies' headquarters while preparing the legislation?
Slimy Politician: Umm...
Re:What's good for the goose ... (Score:3, Funny)
One vote: No. Buh-bye. (Score:5, Insightful)
No. I, for one, would be leaving.
Granted, I am here as a spouse of an American citizen and working simply because of that, not because I simply came for work.
We're in California because she was badly injured in a car accident and her injuries hurt her less in that climate (I know, another one of those selfish immigrants selfishly supporting your disabled citizens so they don't need to claim benefits - it shouldn't be allowed!). But, should any government expect to implant chips in my body, tattoo a series of numbers on my wrist or demand I wear a Star Of David, in the name of "administrative tracking", I'm sure as hell not staying. We gave that a shot in Europe back in the 30s and 40s - it wasn't too popular. Much as I'd hate putting my wife through the physical pain associated with what the British climate does to her injuries, America can do without a highly skilled and heavily in demand science worker. And then everyone who remains can post on Slashdot lamenting how, once all of those workers leave, America's strangely falling even further behind in the sciences.
I'm sorry but it's just not worth starting down that slippery slope to keep a job. I can earn just as well back in Europe and not go down that slope. Forgetting about my wife's specific case, the only people who'll really lose out are the American citizens whose country continues to fall further behind (don't worry, I'm sure your president will authorize borrowing even more to make up for it). So, granted I don't speak for all immigrants (given I have blonde hair, blue eyes, white skin, and the ability to legally work anywhere in Europe which means most Americans don't think of me when justifying their racism in the name of immigration control) but I am at least one immigrant who'd happily sacrifice living in the states for avoiding a path with disturbing similarities to something the Nazi's (with the help of another U.S. business, IBM, tried back in the 40's).
And, yes, this was just one long post to repeatedly hammer home on Slashdot that I have a wife. Some guys'll do anything to show off.
OMG PONIES!!!!1!~!!one (Score:4, Funny)
Technical Problems, RFID != GPS (Score:3, Insightful)
Therefore, all this does is attempt to solve an already solved simple problem (identification papers) in an overly complex and expensive way.
Also, people do not seem to understand the difference between GPS, active transponders, and RFID. Embarrassingly, even IBM doesn't have a clue even though it wants to sell RFID solutions. I cite a commercial where a truck is notified it is off course in the middle of a desert as an advertisement for RFID solutions.