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The NSA Knows Who You've Called
from the at-least-i-know-i'm-free dept.
Jamie adds: Traditionally, the devices which record dialed phone numbers are called pen registers, and trap-and-trace devices. The ECPA provided some legal privacy protection. It was controversial when Section 214 of the Patriot Act amended 50 USC 1842 to allow the FBI to record this information with minimal oversight. The Department of Justice has been required for some time to report to Congress the number of pen registers and trap-and-traces, though in recent years [PDF, see question 10] it declared that information classified.
If anyone has information about how the NSA, as opposed to the FBI, has been involved in domestic phone number collection, please post links in the discussion.
In related news, the National Security Agency has closed down an inquiry into the so-called "Terrorist Surveillance Program," a separate program from this one, by refusing to grant security clearance to the lawyers in the Department of Justice. The NSA and the DoJ are both established under the executive.
The NSA should take aim at Qwest. (Score:5, Funny)
I for one suggest NSA take aim at Qwest and bomb them back to to the PSTN-age!
Re:The NSA should take aim at Qwest. (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, wait a minute, that wasn't funny. Kinda creepy, in fact.
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Re:The NSA should take aim at Qwest. (Score:5, Insightful)
Its pretty clear that we need to reduce the goverment, and simply shut down the NSA, CIA and otehr similar agencies.
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Re:The NSA should take aim at Qwest. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Interesting)
You know what I love? Scenarios! How about this one: You're arrested as a suspect for a crime you didn't commit. The government doesn't have anything on you except that there are no other suspects or witnesses. What they do have, is a network of vertices (phones) and edges (calls) spanning the past year of your life. They also have a list of "dirty" nodes or telephone users who have a rap sheet or ties to anti-American groups.
Thanks to Dijkstra's [wikipedia.org] & the Bellman-Ford [wikipedia.org] algorithms, it's a hop skip and a jump to a prosecutor saying "we have records showing you called your mother on such and such date prompting her to call her hair dresser who has been forwarding money to his family living in Mexico that has ties to Islamic Extremist groups!"
Farfetched? Maybe. But you don't have to be a Sci-Fi author to imagine crazy abuses of this data.
In the eyes of the government, we are all innocent until proven guilty. This could easily be turned into a data mining tool making some of us "less innocent" than others. And frankly, I'm not looking forward to that day.
<tinhat> Imagine a time and place where you have a security rating
Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
No, in the eyes of the government, we are all assets, and are protected as such. Any asset or group of asset wishing to upset the status quo is moved to the basement, the same way I had to move my circa 1970 pole lamp because it clashed with, well, everything.
Parent
Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, that's complicating things a bit more than necessary. This spying program increases power and revenue for government, and that's all the reason politicians need to say "go". I'll go out on a limb and say that the power elite doesn't really give a damn whether they catch any terrorists or not -- in fact, the more terrorism, the more government benefits.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not just an attitude -- it's the reality of runaway government. There are now so many laws that it is literally impossible for a citizen to be 100% law-abiding. This didn't happen by chance; it's by design. The more laws (especially laws which target peaceful, non-violent individuals), the more revenue, control, and power available to those who wield the law for their own benefit.
To paraphrase that famous excerpt from Ayn Rand's novel, "when there aren't enough laws, one makes them". Imagine a government that was strictly limited to enforcing the principle of voluntary association -- what's in that for the power elite? Not much at all -- there's nothing to exploit. Now imagine a government which is unlimited in how many laws it can make, and how often those laws can be changed around -- what's in that for the power elite? Just about everything a corrupt politician ever dreamed of.
The simple reality is that laws benefit the power elite, and that's exactly why every year there are thousands more laws on the books than the year before. Government is in the business of coercion, not liberty.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Funny)
Retro is hot these days. That pole lamp, like witch hunts and covert surveillance, is coming back in style.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Funny)
Then the government would have to explain why it has not captured the mastermind who lies at the heart of this six degreed web of terror:
Kevin Bacon.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
You only have to have lived through the McCarthy era to imagine the abuses...
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is not that there are no criminals using the phone, there are. The problem might be that some other drunk asshole member of the US congress might overstep his bounds (which we see examples of on the news weekly) and use this information with no sense of proportion to forward an adgenda in the guise of an investigation.
I don't think this is too big of a stretch.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm worried about many of the provisions of the patriot act and the powers that they grant, but I'm terrified by the clear lack of oversight on most, if not all, domestic intelligence gathering that is coming to light now and this program is no exception.
Sacrificing liberty in the name of protecting liberty is...um...simply moronic.
Parent
The Rove Database (Score:5, Interesting)
Or some lacky with the morals of a political prostitute might decide to keep tabs on who their political opponents are calling on a regular basis. Or detail the grassroots network in a particular area and send their buddies in the FBI out to intimidate them.
I am sick and fucking tired of our government spending billions to spy on Americans instead of sending some steely-eyed mofo's out to whack terrorists in their own back yard. The Republicans are the most foul, corrupt, incompetent bunch that this country has ever seen in power. I'm disgusted.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with McCarthy was that anyone who didn't praise the flag and the American Dream at every given opportunity was immediately a 'Communist' and black-listed. Relatives in the Eastern Bloc? Communist! Last name ending in '-ev' or '-ov'? Communist! Written a play, book, or film unfavourable to the U.S. Government? Communist!
It was a socio-political pogrom perpertrated in the interests of scaring the nation into anti-Communist sentiment.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
So what? The problem with McCarthy was that it is, and always has been, perfectly legal to be a communist (or a fascist, or a green, or a libertarian, or a monarchist, or a theocrat, or whatever); you have the right to hold any politicals beliefs, and to speak about them.
Conflating "communist" with "Soviet spy" is as stupid and dangerous as conflating "Muslim" with "Al Qaeda agent".
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
And why in a country of supposedly free speech/politics etc, was being a communist something that required a witch hunt?
If a government can devote its resources (seemingly with a fair degree of public consent) in tracking down and persecuting political opponents, then I really don't want that government monitoring my every move.
BTW, your sig - it's a bad translation. A more accurate interpretation is "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for protectors [or possibly allies]", and was a passage referring to a debate about a specific military treaty that was in place between some Muslim, Christian and Jewish tribes against a group of pagans. The treaty had been violated by one of the non-Muslim tribes, and there was debate about whether it should be cancelled or not.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
Just think of what database searches will be fired off before the next election. I'm sure the outgoing Bush administration will know more about the democratic challenger than even they know about themselves. And as this program was started in 2001 who knows if it was used last election or not. There was some mighty bad stuff about Kerry that leaked... Not that any politician would abuse a position of power for something as petty as getting re-elected.
This year's prognosis is the same as last: Screwed.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Interesting)
I friend sent me this link just yesterday about someone trying to purchase a pizza [aclu.org] in the world it would appear both the UK and US governments want us to live in!
I, for one, do not welcome any overlords, whether insect or other sufficently low life to want to be in politics!
Just say NO [no2id.net]
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
That's Pre-9-11 thinking.
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Re:Mandate to fight terror (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sorry but that simply is not the case. Most of the laws sent by congress are written by lobbyists now. What is *your* lobbyist doing about it? Don't have one? Thought not. That is why they spy on you.
Sophisticated terrorists already know they are being spied on and avoid electronic communication. For example, Bin laden uses human couriers for this very reason. My phone company simply betrayed me for money. The US government does it because in it's opinion, it is above the law, and it fears disruption of the current cozy system.
I think they are scared of political movements, rather than terrorists. For instance, people of Mexican origin and / or nationality are organizing now. Where will that lead? There is more income inequality now than decades past. Will that ignite some sort of movement to re-adjust the balance of power between companies and workers?
That is what scares the government. It could bring an end to Facism. (No, I'm not saying they're Nazis. But they are authoritarian, rule with a bunch of companies, and suppress dissent.)
Cheers,
-b
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Re:Mandate to fight terror (Score:5, Insightful)
Interesting. You've conflated the (obviously and unarguably true) fact that most Americans want the government to prevent terrorist attacks against us with the assertion that the administration is free to do whatever it wants in pursuit of that goal.
Obviously, I disagree. Defense of our country still must take place within the framework of our system of laws and the Constitution of the United States. To the degree that the laws need amending, I think that they clearly should be - although the current administration has shied away from this path. Instead, the Attorney General has repeatedly asserted that laws governing the gathering of intelligence data, even domestically, are not within the purview of Congress to issue, and that the executive branch can simply disregard them. When Congress has offered to make changes to legislation to make it more palatable to the administration, their offers were rebuffed: simply put, the administration does not wish to be governed by laws, regardless of their actual content.
As for the rhetorical device you use - that the opinions you hold are that of the "great silent majority" - I can only say that in polls on a similar issue (the "warrantless wiretap" question), the data would seem to hold otherwise. In a poll run by the American Research Group, there was a near 50-50 split on the issue of whether the president should be censured over the NSA warrantless wiretap issue. [americanre...hgroup.com]
Republicans (33%): Favor censure: 29% Oppose censure: 57% Undecided: 14%
Democrats (37%): Favor censure: 70% Oppose censure: 26% Undecided: 4%
Independents (30%): Favor censure: 42% Oppose censure: 47% Undecided: 11%
Total: Favor censure: 46% Oppose censure: 44% Undecided: 10%
I assume for the sake of this arugment that if approximately half of those polled supported a censure resolution on this issue, then more than half would be opposed to the wiretaps generally.
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Re:Oh, the Abuses We'll See! (Score:5, Insightful)
Pay your damn bills and there's no problem.
LOL. In a perfect world my frient.
The "credit reports" are managed by publically traded corporations and a recent survey showed that over 30% contained "major errors", and the trend is up.
I had two mortgages on "my" report, and have never owned a house.
Then, when you notice errors, it becomes YOUR full time job to work for the three Credit Reporting Agencies to clean up THEIR reports so that they will have more accurate data to sell. Assuming they even bother and don't simply declare the protests "frivolous".
Hey, tens of millions of unpaid employees maintaining the accuracy of your data. It's good work ... if you can get it.
It's not a simple as paying your bills on time. You have to do that, and then order your credit reports constantly and spend half of your free time doing free work for the CRA's if there are errors. Of course, all of the major reporting corporations also offer a "monitoring service" so that you can actually pay to work for them.
What a bargain.
Credit Reports can be as much a work of fiction as they are to be accurate. People who work all of their lives as slaves to the FICO score can see it wiped out in one hour without any wrongdoing on their part.
If you are a slave to the credit report, then you aren't very free.
Private, publically traded credit reports should not be used for anything truly important until they get the accuracy of such reports to a reasonable level.
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At least a tech sector storage boom? (Score:5, Interesting)
So many questions, but me no longer wonders how those biggie telco mergers got past regulators anymore...
Can you hear me now? (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, last I heard, he only used trusted human couriers to deliver messages. He may be a madman, but he is a smart madman. And most of these couriers were not American, but Pakistani and Saudi citizens, and they try to be as discreet -- and "un-islamist" as possible. So the NSA domestic spying program is definitely not useful against terrorists. But remember, kids, if we can't listen to your phone, the terrorists have won!
Madman? (Score:5, Insightful)
Rich.
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Misinformed (Score:5, Interesting)
Which one had something to do with 9/11 again?
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Now I have to change my answering machine message (Score:5, Interesting)
Be aware that the National Security Agency may be recording this call and anything you say may be used against you. I have no control over this situation as my phone provider is turning over this information on all its customers to the NSA.
Can't wait to hear the questions about this when people start calling.
What's in it for the Telcos? (Score:5, Insightful)
For the customers of these companies, it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made -- across town or across the country -- to family members, co-workers, business contacts and others.
And later on...
Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.
The telcos stand to make out like gangbusters: a) they ingratiate themselves to the military and the government, which will come in handy to defeat Net Neutrality legislation, b) they can sit there and claim plausible deniability when someone brings suit against them because their phone records were used against them in court wrogfully, as they claim they're not supplying personal information to the NSA and c) the NSA, by running these algorithms and tracing calling patterns is generating data that could potentially be used by them to modify call routing schemes, change marketing penetration, and generally give them access to potentially useful information, which I'm sure the NSA will be only too happy to provide, to gain further cooperation.
Seems as if the telcos are now firmly in bed with the government and will pretty soon be able to write their own ticket to profits on the backs of taxpayers. Are all these illegal immigrants sure they want to be in this country?
People refuse to see the big picture (Score:5, Insightful)
You know what does? People railing against one socio-political-economic class as the root problem of society. Newsflash, most classes are where they are for reasons they could have helped or legitimately earned. A pluralist society needs that class diversity to reinforce individualism. And let's not forget perceived enemies of all types. Then there's the "just give up part of your liberty and you'll be safe, if you've got nothing to hide of course." It's like gun control. There are a lot of cops out there who can't shoot worth a damn and police departments are legendary for resistance to change. Do you trust them with your daily safety? I don't.
When people say to you "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear," you can respond (which I usually do) with "no decent, civilized person would ever have grounds to criticize the basic checks and balances that you oppose."
Re:People refuse to see the big picture (Score:5, Insightful)
Hold up there, Sunny Jim. I'm one of those "liberals," and although I am against smoking laws, especially those against pot. There's no such thing as "hate speech," just hate, and you can't legislate that away, any more than you can legislate away stupidity (though I'd legislate away stupidity if I could).
Americans are dumb. You know how dumb the average person is? Well, by definition, half are dumber than that. (Yeah, I know, it should be "median person," not "average," but it's not as funny that way.)
We're not "designing" an elitist, utopian society; we're living in an elitist, dystopian society, in which holier-than-thou born-again hypocrites run the government, and claim to be Republican, but sure the fuck aren't. If they are shining examples of the mass of people they represent, we're in bigger fucking trouble than we thought.
I believe in personal liberty, but not group liberties. I believe corporations should be controlled, which is probably the only thing that sets me apart from most libertarians. Well, that and my belief that we should help those who need help (that is, social programs) because that's what Jesus would want. I mean, if I believed in Jesus.
I do like a lot of the ideals of Christianity, especially those being ignored by most self-proclaimed Christians-- like, charity, for instance. Humility is another oldy-but-goody. Kindness, and pacificism: two other good ones.
There may be a few liberals who push stupid, anti-rights agendas. (Yeah, I'm looking at you, California. Quit electing fucking actors as governors. First, Reagan, now ARNIE? What the fuck are you guys smoking out there? And why don't I have any?) But, on the whole, I don't think there's a lot of difference between "liberals" and "conservatives."
I think it's like an artificial gang war. I think they do this to keep us divided, so we don't notice the fact that we get exactly the same fucking government no matter who's in charge.
As I'm on a Bill Hicks kick lately, there's always this:
"I'll show you politics in America. Here it is, right here. 'I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs.' 'I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking.' 'Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!'"
Thanks for letting me rant.
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Message from the NSA (Score:5, Funny)
please can you start using the telephone more often? We're having real trouble finding where you are! It would help if you phoned one of your relatives, spoke loudly and clearly into the phone, and if you can say a few of our keywords that would be great.
Thanks!
The NSA
Terrorist threat is minimal (Score:5, Insightful)
In the last ten years, smoking has killed 4 million Americans. Traffic has killed 400.000. Terrorism has killed 4.000. When will you stop handing total power to the government just to fight this one, close to irrelevant risk? And why not spend those many billions on the healthcare system and traffic safety?
Re:Terrorist threat is minimal (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Terrorist threat is minimal (Score:5, Insightful)
I respectfully disagree. It is very minimal.
You have a FAR better chance of being struck by lightning than being killed by a "terrorist". In fact, there are hundreds of forseeable and preventable (at some level) ways you can die in this country that do not involve a terrorist act.
However, our government is spending billions of dollars, stripping away freedoms, spying on its people, etc, etc
How about we nick that whole drunk driving thing in the bud instead and save 1000's of lives annually? Or any of the other things than 90 billion dollars would pretty much eradicate without a doubt?
- Roach
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Effective counter terrorism (Score:5, Insightful)
How to install country control system (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 2) Place your political friends and allies in charge of the infrastructure
Step 3) Reduce measures to control abuse of they system by claiming it's in the interests of "national security"
Step 4) Undermine the efforts of your political enemies with your newfound power
Never in my life (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, wait. They didn't, they were just afraid they'd get sued.
9-11 was a wet dream come true for the government. (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorism, Terrorism, Terrorism, Terrorism, Terrorism, Terrorism, Terrorism, Terrorism, Terrorism, OMG TERRORISM!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep your population on edge with a color coded system so they won't question anything. Oh need to raise the level..Is your bathroom breeding terrorists?
Terrorism is the new Communism(tm)
Make them hurt--slashdot them! (Score:5, Interesting)
If you have Verizon, MCI, AT&T, SBC, or BellSouth for local phone service or long distance, DIAL 0 and complain to the operator.
If you have Cingular, AT&T, or Verizon for cell phone service, DIAL 611 and get a customer service rep on the line to complain to. REMIND THEM THEY ARE IN VIOLATION OF THEIR AGREEMENT WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU CAN SWITCH TO ANOTHER PROVIDER WITHOUT PENALTY.
More info here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/11/91046/796
three words: class action lawsuit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:UK (Score:5, Informative)
One (TLA) word for you: GCHQ.
Think NSA without the silly "no-domestic-spying" rule.
Have a nice day.
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Re:UK (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:This is not a troll.......... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah, you just need to get the legal department to add some disclaimers. For example:
"Land of the free (except where such freedom may be deemed by government agencies to conflict with the ability of the state to protect any such notional freedom from any perceived external or internal theats)"
"I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty (see disclaimer under freedom) and justice (pursuant to the ability of the pledgee to afford the aforesaid justice) for all."
Problem solved!
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Re:This is not a troll.......... (Score:5, Insightful)
What amazes me about the US is that I constantly hear from many of the people there how great a country is because it's free. Freedom, freedom, "land of the FREE", etc etc etc. Most of this sort of shit comes from the people who SUPPORT the opposite of freedom like that scary government you guys have got. Where I'm from (New Zealand) we don't go on about how great it is to be free because we live it. It's normal to us, it's what we're used to we take it for granted and that's the way it should be. I'm sure many will argue that point that it can't be taken for granted and say things like, "Your Freedom should be DEFENDED". Maybe for you but not for me. If it's not being attacked it doesn't need defence.
We don't have no NSA, FBI, CIA, weird gun laws, death penalties and when it comes to crime - shit if a cat gets stuck up a tree it's basically front page news!
The USA and Korea are not the two extremes of the world - get out and travel a bit more, I think you may be surprised what your country is missing.
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Re:serious question (Score:5, Insightful)
FUCK NO.
I actually can't believe that it's gotten to this point. Every day on the news there is unveiled yet another invasion on my privacy and the privacy of my fellow citizens. Every day there is another civil liberty trounced.
Every day there is news of how Dick Cheney is getting fatter on Halbituron dollars with no-bid contracts. Every day there is news of Bush appointing an old friend or serious yes-man to some high-level position in government that causes nothing but stress.
And every day, the eyes of the people in this country glaze over and they quickly forget about the attrocities to our rights revealed from the day before. I don't understand the mentality.
I actually find myself getting physically angry these days at the hubris with which the executive operates. There is no one standing in their way. Illegal wiretapping is now all but forgotten because the executive has envoked the "State Secrets" privledge - it's not even a real law, but part of what is known as "common law" but judges won't stand UP to these people.
When you are a person hell-bent on control and dictatorship, it's hard to be stopped when the people who have the power to stop someone won't step up. Hell, just yesterday I read that GW Bush was saying how wonderful a president Jeb Bush would make. The man that botched the Florida election in 2000, the man with ties to arguably the most powerful family in the country if not the world... With two Bushes we have seen at least 3 wars.
And the country will vote for Jeb. And the Bushes will continue to reign supreme. Already GW Bush has called for an end to presidental term limits. No surprise he'd want that passed before Jeb is elected.
This country is no longer a democracy or even a republic. I get no say, and it is quite clear that the leaders in Washington in no way represent the will of the people. The country is ruled by money, greed, and power.
I really, really hate to make this analogy. I loathe it actually. But the parallels between current events in the US and Nazi Germany are striking. Germany launched war based on the call to stamp out terrorisim. They controlled the populace thorough fear of outsiders, destroyed international trust, and made the country a very us-vs-them scenario of patriotism that allowed a fanatic to sieze control. Hitler very much said (paraphrased) "I can beat terrorism but only if you grant me more power than I normally have." Hello Patriot Act. And finally, Nazi Germany was stupidly meticulous with their records, including serious amounts of domestic spying.
People. Listen. We are now under-represented if not completely un-represented. The federal government is no longer a checks-and-balances system, with unprecidented power being granted to the executive, going completely unchallenged. I have never before seen this ability to completely shut down investigations into illegal activities. Futher, no presidency has ever seen this degree of secrecy. We are governed by laws that we AREN'T EVEN ALLOWED TO READ. How can you be governed by laws that the government won't even acknowledge exist??
I have become a person I never wanted to be. Conspiracy theory fills my head. But I'm not reading this stuff on some horrible "bushkills.com" site or something. Everything I read is on the front page of /. or the NY Times or Washington Post.
So I'm afraid. Not sure there is anything I can do but try to rally people behind me and behind the very few who actually dare say "no" to the executive. I never thought I'd live in this type of fear of my government, and in fear that we may be witnessing the end of the government as our forefathers saw it.
My only solace is that things of this nature have happened in the past, and have somehow righted themselves. So let's hope that this is just another Linconesque suspension of habius corpus, and that these wrongs will eventually be righted. But with such secrecy, and so much more going on than I will ever know about...
Parent
Re:serious question (Score:5, Insightful)
If you were actually able to exercise that right, then it might be understandable. But the logic falls down when you consider:
When are you going to do this?
So when are you going to topple the government? It seems more like you are going to sit back and let your government turn into a dictatorship, all the while saying "we're free because we have the right to own guns..."
If you aren't going to use them, you might as well not have them. Your guns have done nothing whatsoever to protect your freedom and they will continue to do nothing as long as they are not used.
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The bill of rights: (Score:5, Informative)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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