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Sony DRM and the New Digital Hole
Posted by
CowboyNeal
on Sat Mar 18, 2006 09:37 AM
from the speed-bumps dept.
from the speed-bumps dept.
expro writes "If the root kit scandal was not enough for Sony, Time Magazine reports that it is a delay in 'the release of copy-protection software required for the PS3's game and high-definition movie discs' giving Microsoft a serious advantage in the market place. Is there something Sony should be learning here about preoccupation copy control? With high definition writable media appearing already, will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome the real obstacle to backing up my exsisting commercial DVDs, cost of single media large enough to hold them that is playable in a player? Will the resulting new digital hole in copying existing DVD schemes to higher-density media replace the analog hole of VCRs in copying movies?"
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Hardware: HD-DVD and Blu-Ray Coming Soon to PCs 209 comments
An anonymous reader writes "A Yahoo! news piece has some sales details for the upcoming Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players. They also have some details on disc drives that read the new formats." From the article: "Sony has priced its first desktop computer that will have a Blu-ray Disc burner. The drive will be able to write to 25GB and 50GB BD-RE (rewritable) and BD-R (write once) discs. Sony will start selling 25GB BD-RE and BD-R discs in April for $20 and $25 respectively and 50GB capacity versions of the same discs later in the year for $48 and $60 respectively. The Vaio RC will be launched in 'early summer' and will cost around $2300. At the CeBIT show in Germany last week, Sony announced plans for a Vaio notebook with a Blu-ray Disc drive."
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Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:4, Interesting)
Nobody ever explained to me why Microsoft would inherently give a damn about DRM. As far as I know, it's the content industry that says "chain up people's PCs or we won't release high defenition material at all".
Microsoft's actual anti-piracy efforts have been a token effort at best, especially when you consider that MS actually depends a lot on penetrating developing countries with its pirated software. All other things being equal, I seriously doubt they'd give a shit less about implementing something technically very thorny and that just makes your software a pain in the ass to use.
Only reason X360 and Xbox have copy protection is to ensure developers actually pay licensing fees and don't just release software for their loss-making hardware without paying. It's got very little to do with piracy.
Parent
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:3, Informative)
Thacherous computing plattaforms won't be able to run Linux. Or, at least won't be able to do that the way we do it now, that is easy to modify and improve.
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:3, Informative)
Earlier versions of Microsoft DRM were cracked too.
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:3, Informative)
Mandatory managed copy.
You can save HD to back-up media or hard drive at full resolution. (Preserving closed captioning and multiple audio tracks?) You can distribute to home networks. You can painlessly downsample/download to portable devices and media.
That would meet 95% or more of anyone's "fair use" requirements.
Is there something Sony should be learning? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not saying corporations are always right or always do the right thing, but when it comes to making money, Sony usually gets it right, and I don't think one self-important slashdotter speculating otherwise carries much weight compared to a financial beast that's been generating astoundingly large piles of cash for the past long while.
Re:Is there something Sony should be learning? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Is there something Sony should be learning? (Score:5, Insightful)
The negative PR Sony gets in geekland is outweighed by the average consumer's perception of the quality of Sony products. Sony's rootkit was absolutely unacceptable, but don't think Sony didn't already know that.
You'll never know what your boundaries are unless you surpass them. This way, when they slowly reintroduce the same technology years later when DRM and consumer hard-drive snooping has become largely perfunctory, they can measure how far they've come.
Parent
Re:Is there something Sony should be learning? (Score:2, Informative)
And their media empire hasn't been doing so hot lately either.
Basically, the main thing keeping Sony afloat right now is the playstation brand. They are not a healthy company.
Re:Is there something Sony should be learning? (Score:2)
just "geekland" that they got the negative PR over DRM- it was pretty much
common news to the point that the governments were chastising them and taking them to
court over it.
With this in mind, it's a little amazing that they're so damn worried about DRM (which
got them in trouble, costs for which are yet to be fully determined...) to majorly delay
one of their MAIN product offerings to the point that they may well
cede the
Sony has lost it's edge (Score:5, Interesting)
No matter what DRM, watermark, or token system they release will do nothing more than frustrate their consumer base. Many consumers are now feeling for burned by Sony that they will wait until the mid to trailing edge of the technology cycle to adopt it.
Re:Sony has lost it's edge (Score:2)
Re:Sony has lost it's edge (Score:2, Flamebait)
I don't see how the DRM scheme of blueray is going to "burn" me. I can still watch my movies with ease, and even my friends with DVD players can borrow them and watch them, thanks to dual layering allowing a DVD layer and a hi-def laye
Re:Sony has lost it's edge (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony... the guys who brought us very expensive DVD players that wouldn't read CD-R/DVD+-R media (on purpose of course). This one really upset me. I couldn't play my DVD's slideshows and movies that I made on my computer on my Sony player.
Sony, the guys who brought us the Sony Memory Stick and Magic Gate copy protection aka "Slow and Lame."
Sony, the guys who just released the "iPOD Killer" that can't even play MP3's and requires converting them to Sony's proprietary format (because it's better right?).
Sony, the guys who make TV's that enforce macrovision so strictly that they sometimes don't work with DVD players and legal DVDs. Can anyone say, RF adaptor? Should one really need to purchase an RF adaptor just to get the Sony DVD player and Sony TV to work together? Jeez....
First and second generation HDTVs which won't play at full resolution with new devices because of what they call the "ANALOG HOLE".
Sony the guys who make video cameras that shutoff if accidentally pointed towards a TV screen playing a DVD (say during your child's birthday party).
Sony is capable of making a good product, but don't expect it to be flexible. If you use your Sony product as they deem you should use it (strictly buying their content), then you're fine. Stray outside the lines slightly and it will become a source of aggravation. I realize Sony has become more flexible lately because their electronics division has been suffering, but I will not forgive the sins of the past 4-5 years so easily due to the amount of hard earned cash that I feel was wasted. I will never buy into another proprietary Sony standard just because they want CONTROL nor will I buy another Sony device that doesn't allow what I consider "fair use". I really feel sorry for the people who have been buying with the Sony credit cards and now have accumulated Sony points.
Parent
Re:Sony has lost it's edge (Score:2, Insightful)
MiniDisc would be one. Sony's idea of an "MP3 Player" was software that transcodes Atrac to MP3 in realtime for an MD player. In its time MiniDisc was a nicely engineered format. The physical media could hold quite a lot and the Atrac codecs weren't bad at all. But Sony was so petrified of piracy that they stymied the obvious PC applications. MD never succeeded in being more than a niche technology
Analog Hole (Score:4, Funny)
What's the Problem? (Score:2, Informative)
Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are late. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony is late with everything most likely the Cell processors and the programming tools for it. DRM is just a smokescreen, handy because really did have issues with both HD/BD getting it finalized, but it is now.
But in Sonys case it is a very stupid excuse, give the rootkit problems. Many people will percieve this is Sony being late so they can figure out new ways to screw us over with DRM. They really need new marketing droids before they release lame excuses like this.
Re:Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are la (Score:3, Interesting)
If I remember correctly the story a few months ago about that artist who was fired for slamming the PS3 made some comments on the dev kits his team was using to develop their next gen titles.
FINAL devkits in June (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure how different the current devkits are from the final PS3 hardware, but it could potentially lead to some serious development work still to come. If nothing else the more elite devs will want to take at least a few months to get better performance/graphics out of their game using the presumably superior performance of the
Re:Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are la (Score:2)
From Sony's presentation at the recent PS3 announcement:
So, the final dev kit is most likely going out before June (the slide shows it on a timeline somewhere between May and June), the final Cell and RSX are in the earlier releases of the devkit and there is a Blu Ray drive in the f
Yes it is the Final devkit. AACS the holdup? (Score:2)
The question is do you seriously believe it is AACS holding up launch till November?
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/ps3/playstation-confe rence-news-roundup-160603.php [kotaku.com]
Here's their summary so far for anyone who wants to catch up:
PS3:
- GLOBAL RELEASE NOVEMBER 11th
- 60GB HDD 2.5" with pre-installed Linux OS will be included?
- Dev kit specs fix as of today
- Final PS3 development kits will be sent to developers in June
- 10.000.00
This isn't the first time... (Score:3, Insightful)
There were many times before the arrival of the Ipod that Sony had the best looking Mp3 players, and they always seemed to have the features I wanted. However, they made the idiotic move of making a user convert all of his songs to the ATRAC3 format. Seriously, who wants to deal with that crap? So what happens? Smaller players move in and dominate.
Content (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Content (Score:2)
Monk 1: "Why good brother Monk, this manuscript isn't worth reading, much less transcribing word by word so that we might have a back up copy."
Monk 2: "Shut up fellow Monk, the Vicar has demanded copies and copies he shall get."
There's two reasons you argument is shoddy at best.
First, there have always been people pumping out shitty content that isn't worth watching/playing/hearing, much less making a copy of.
Second, did it eve
pointless (Score:2)
What they will never learn (Score:3)
The stark reality that has always been out there for everyone to see is simply that MOST people are willing to spend their money of "official" copies of their favorite entertainment. This means they'll watch the movie and if they like it, they'll buy the DVD. If they hear the song and like it, they'll buy the CD. This pattern (I have no studies to back this up... it's just my observation) fits the vast majority of consumer out there.
So then the question comes up, "...that's fine, but what about the REAL pirates who attempt to counterfeit and sell to a public who thinks they are buying 'official' copies?" GO AFTER THEM to the fullest extent of the law. I doubt that anyone would fail to support legal/criminal action against those activities. But the 'copy protection' that exists today and is likely to exist tomorrow will not thwart those pirates, but it goes a long way to inconvenience their paying consumers.
So far, they have mostly gotten away with it. Sony didn't get a black eye from the back-door infecting CDs... I'd liken it more to a minor abrassion if even that. The majority of the buying public never noticed and still have never even HEARD of Sony's stunt.
I believe there is such a thing as "enough profit" and they should recognize it for their own benefit as well as their consumers. It has been demonstrated that big business often consider government fines, liability lawsuits and other costs associated with survival in a litigeous society as "a common business expense." I believe they should stop viewing casual or civilian copying as a threat to their business model because I would believe (again, no supporting facts) that the legals costs, the costs of product delays, the costs of lost fandom, the cost of development of 'protective measures' and the COSTS OF SUPPORTING LEGISLATION far outweigh any potential losses they might consider lost due to civilian copyright infringement.
(I also believe they know this... I believe their aims are a little bigger than they will admit and it's likely something along the lines of price fixing, monopolistic control and that sort of thing.)
Re:What they will never learn (Score:2)
That's because there's no such thing. They are a publicly traded company; they are required to maximize stock value to shareholders.
Instead of trying to convince the industries to abandon a business strategy that has so far been very successful, perhaps it would be more worthwhile to educate consumers on how these companies are ripping them off.
After all, they're the ones who keep buying this crap and perpetuating the system.
Betamax Revisited (Score:5, Insightful)
Now lets got to the real issue here. Which will consumers prefer? An expensive, poorly designed piece of technology, or something that is no more difficult to adopt than what they currently have. Most computers have issues playing non-DRM protected HDTV content let alone one that is. I bought the new special edition Terminator II that had the metal case and the high-def version. My computer was brand new at the time and it wouldn't even play it because of the DRM.
So what new format will we choose to distribute the next generation of media? Will it be Bluray or HD-DVD? Maybe neither! There are competing technologies out there that are capable of high-def right now without the need of clunky, ill-deigned DRM software. There's Xvid, DivX, etc, why PAY for proprietary forms of media you can't even bring to your SO's apartment to watch? That was the beauty of VHS, you could record stuff off of tv CHEAPLY, there was ONE format in video stores.
All of this just leads to confusion for the consumer. The new DVD format should piggyback on the old technology and be founded on OPEN standards. History will repeat itself with Sony's proprietary formats. Early adopters of Bluray will be throwing out their money. It will be at least 5 years before HD is fully mainstream. The majority of the movies out there will not benefit from being in HD.
Do you honestly think seeing Gone With the Wind will be better in HD?
Re:Betamax Revisited (Score:2)
Sony lost the home format but won the broadcast-level market and holds it to this day. Betacam SP has been the industry standard for production for many years, only recently supplanted by newer digital efforts (and even those are still in their infancy).
You make a fine point, but it is worth mentioning that while Sony lost the living room, they won the studio.
Don't believe the hype. (Score:3, Interesting)
SONY is a hydra (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me illustrate with an example: Sony regularly names Sony as a defendant in copyright lawsuits.
Sony Corporation is: several mini-divisions of Sony Electronics (Walkmans, stereo gear, camcorders, TVs, phones, not to mention an entire division dedicated to pro-level broadcast hardware and Betacam SP); a large media arm in Sony-BMG Music Group which has its own problems, Sony's movie studio - again, schizo in performance but huge and sprawling; Sony's various software divisions (SCE*), in NA, Japan, and Europe; 'online' or SonyConnect verisons for each of those again...not to mention weirdo initiatives like Sony Ericsson (very successful)...
You see where I'm going with this. Here's an article [post-gazette.com] that does a good job summing it up.
It is pointless to discuss an entity called SONY as if it were a coherent entity. It is more like the EU. Very competitive, aligned loosely, but basically all fighting each other tooth and nail for internal dominance, which usually translates to external dominance. This has been Sony's culture for a long time, only recently changing under their new CEO (a Welsh guy, another first for the corporation).
If you ask Sony's hardware guys about the iPod, most of them will readily concede that they were soundly thrashed by Apple. iPod is the new Walkman, no doubt. Sony could have competed with Apple if they didn't have the content arms sniping at them throughout the development process (and also if they had let go of certain insane engineers who loved minidisc a little too much).
So when you guys are boycotting Sony products - a principal I do not disagree with - I do have to wonder a little if you know exactly what you are boycotting. Sony-BMG are bastards, I deal with them all the time and they really just are the epitome of the 'evil record label'. Sony hardware is a completely different entity, and they more or less hate Sony-BMG as well. When you stop buying Sony TVs and whatnot, you are actually punishing the guys who are (now somewhat successfully) pushing against the DRM in the hardware. They hate this shit, and they know what consumers want (mostly...). DRM comes from the media arms, and its dictating product design inside Sony, and that is the battle.
What I am saying is, you need the carrot and the stick. Don't buy Sony-BMG music, they cam eup with the rootkit. DO buy those Sony products that are free of DRM. The message will be clear. I have a Sony Ericsson phone (W600i) and it does not have any DRM for loading and playing music, short of the veil necessary to keep you from beaming pre-canned content into other phones. it actually is the iTunes phone that everyone wanted, and no one shipped, including Motorola/Apple. My iTunes collection, all uninfected MP3 and AAC, loads (both directions) and plays beautifully.
Sony Electronics has typically kept the underperforming divisions from showing up more drastically on the balance sheet (PS2) but they are suffering now as well. Let's hope the hardware guys win over the media guys.
Howard Stringer (Score:3, Interesting)
Putting him in charge was a solid kick to the nuts for all of Sony's hardware businesses. He doesn't control everything, but he functions as a tie breaker when the two sides disagree. And he is *always* going to come down on the side of more locked down content. I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to
While not a native speaker... (Score:4, Funny)
"With high definition writable media appearing already, will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome the real obstacle to backing up my exsisting commercial DVDs, cost of single media large enough to hold them that is playable in a player?"
Re:Maybe it is just me waking up (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Maybe it is just me waking up (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, but out of HD-DVD or BR-DVD... (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, but out of HD-DVD or BR-DVD... (Score:2)
In fact both systems are the same deal -- whether you can use component HD is up to the DRM policy that the studio stamps onto the disk.
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:2)
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a two year old daughter. She's fond of Monster's Inc., Yellow Submarine and those damned Baby Einstein DVDs. She's also fond of touching the disks themselves. I own legally purchased store-bought copies of all the aforementioned titles. You think my desire to back them up is nonsense? Now THAT's nonsense!
Parent
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:4, Interesting)
The fact of the matter is that, whatever pseudophilosophical bullshit exceptions people give here (such as the "wink wink" 'backing up my DVDs' nonsense of the submitter), the underlying problem is still the willingness of ordinary people to engage in acts of willful copyright infringement simply on the basis of the belief that their chances of being caught are low.
1. Backing up our DVDs so my daughter doesn't destroy them is not a "pseudophilosophical bullshit exception;" it's a fact of life. I don't much care if other people want to make copies of DVDs to distribute illegally. That's not my concern, nor is it my problem.
2. The underlying problem is not my willingness to engage in an act of copyright infringement. It is instead the fact that I currently CANNOT make a fair use backup copy of my own DVDs without breaking the law (thank you, DMCA).
I considered defending myself against your implication that I'm lying about my daughter, but instead I'll just issue the age-old curse:
"Just wait until you have kids of your own!"
Parent
There's already a solution... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody WANTS DRM.
Nonsense. The media companies love DRM because of the market control it gives them.
willingness of ordinary people to engage in acts of willful copyright infringement
Gosh, when the vast majority of people disagree with your view of the world then maybe it's your view which is at fault?
People have been sharing with friends and acquaintances since the dawn of time.
the underlying problem is still the willingness of ordinary people to engage in acts of willful copyright infringement simply on the basis of the belief that their chances of being caught are low.
No, the underlying problem is IP companies who feel they have a right to unlimited profits for the one piece of work at the expense of the general population. And due to broken IP law are currently getting away with it.
There is also a problem with lying astroturfers [wikipedia.org] who fraudulently misrepresent company propaganda as a personal opinion and also repeatedly spam discussion groups with their propaganda but that's another story.
---
It's wrong that an intellectual property creator should not be rewarded for their work.
It's equally wrong that an IP creator should be rewarded too many times for the one piece of work, for exactly the same reasons.
Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA abuse.
Parent
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact of the matter is that, whatever pseudophilosophical bullshit exceptions people give here
You do realize that copyright itself counts as a "pseudophilosophical bullshit exception" to physical reality, right? You don't have a natural "right" to control copying and distribution of something just because you happened to put a particular combination of words/notes together, of which 99.99% of your "creation" already
Canadian RIAA says they were wrong re:file sharers (Score:2, Interesting)
Did you see an earlier story from yesterday evening, it is here [slashdot.org] and it is about how the Canadian RIAA has contradicted it's previous public statements?
Did you also see the article [slashdot.org] about how DRM costs 25% of a mobile systems battery power?
Here [slashdot.org] is an example of how the US government is investigating price fixing.
Do all the above examples validate piracy? No, I don't think so. Do they validate DRM? hell no! I will never buy media strangled with DRM. Ever.
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:3, Insightful)
It is not possible to successfully find some 'loophole' in the concept of fair use. There's simply no such thing because fair use by definition is a fungible thing that relies on reasonable human judgment to decide when too much is too much. Therefore, the very fact that you attempt to use some loophole pretty much in itself no longer makes your actions fair use.
What on earth do you think you are talking about. No one in their right mind would go looking for a loophole in a concept. The idea of a loopho
Re:HINT, PEOPLE (Score:3, Informative)