Slashdot Log In
Zune Won't Play Old DRM Infected Files
Posted by
Zonk
on Tue Sep 19, 2006 09:28 AM
from the do-as-we-do-not-as-we-say dept.
from the do-as-we-do-not-as-we-say dept.
Spritzer writes "According to the EFF, the new Zune portable media player from Microsoft won't play files infected with the old Microsoft DRM. It seems that all of the 'PlaysforSure' media that has been sold and is currently being sold will not play on the Zune. In addition, Microsoft has now advocated violating the DMCA in order to transfer files to the player. Microsoft Zune architect J Allard was quoted as saying there's 'Lots of DVD ripping software out there that encodes to those formats, so the most popular formats out there, whether it's MPEG-4 or H.264, we'll support those.'" ZDNet offers up additional commentary on this revelation.
Related Stories
[+]
Ask Slashdot: Zune - Microsoft Killer or Next Apple Victim? 159 comments
prophet asks: "Now that we have all seen the new Microsoft 'Zune', and the suits over at Microsoft have seen fit to inform us of a whole line of 'Zune' related hardware and software products, my real question is, will Microsoft be able to de-throne the ever growing iPod phenom? With the current confirmed 'Zune' prototype photos dispersed throughout the net, it is hard to see how Microsoft has thought that the current design of the 'Zune' is in fact enough in its current form for users to be pleased aesthetically, and at the same time impressed by ease of use. At the current moment, rumors are circulating of a redesign of the controls on Microsoft's part before a complete release. With the current aesthetical design of the Zune, will it appeal to the masses in the way the iPod did? More importantly, does it appeal to you?
[+]
News: Microsoft Launches the Zune 472 comments
Doug-W writes to mention an Engadget post about Microsoft's launch of the Zune. From the article: "Not a lot of surprises in the specs department, but they've confirmed the basics we've known for a while, like WiFi, 30GB of HDD, built-in FM, a 3-inch screen and the basic music, pictures and video playback. They also finally let slip the screen res -- an unsurprising QVGA -- and some better news on the codec front: the Zune supports h.264, MP3, AAC and WMA. As for ballyhoo, wireless Zune-to-Zune sharing is where the real action is at, and it works pretty much like we've been hearing: you can share a full-length track with a friend, and they've got three times to listen to it over a three day period, after which they can flag the song for purchase on the Zune Marketplace -- unless they're an unlimited 'Zune Pass' subscriber, of course."
[+]
News: Zune's Wireless Almost Totally Worthless 442 comments
mikesd81 writes to mention an article at Engadget exploring what the Zune's wireless is good for. It turns out that, at least for now, that's not much. From the article: "You can search for and find other Zunes nearby. You can send songs / albums for the 3 x 3 trial. Songs past the three days / listens are deleted at next sync, but catalogued on your PC for record-keeping should you want to purchase them later. No word on whether Microsoft is going to keep track of which files are traded. You can send and receive image files for 'unlimited viewing.' (Oh, so copyrighted images aren't worth DRMing?) You can't: Connect to the internet, Download songs directly from the Zune store via WiFi, Sync to your computer via WiFi."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
PlaysForSure? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's almost as if Microsoft is reading Slashdot. Their new business plan is:
1. Create a format called "PlaysForSure"
2. Make certain that it doesn't "Play for Sure"
3. Cede 95% of the market to Apple
4. ???
5. PROFIT!
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:4, Insightful)
Wha?!?
A blatant demonstration of exactly why DRM is an extaordinarily bad deal for the user, and the answer you reach is, "People will switch to the other mass market DRM"?
Wow. The worst part is, assuming any of the unwashed masses even notice, you're probably right.
Parent
I thought it was PaidForSure (Score:5, Funny)
My bad.
Parent
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:4, Interesting)
AllOfMP3 plays for sure (as long as the site is up).
supernova &&|| all it's vairents tend to play for sure as long as the torrent isn't comprimised.
While the legality of the former is questionable and the latter is, well, known for sure, these are still legitimite competitors to the DRM media.
-nB
To clarify legitimate competitor != legal competitor. The media companies need to understnad that if they break their own rules then they are opening the gates to others ignoring the rules a bit wider every time.
-nB
Parent
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:5, Informative)
Magnatune - which is completely legitimate - plays for sure on any MP3 player too. This is because they sell unencrypted files in most formats (you choose the format when you download).
eMusic is the second largest legitimate download service, only second to iTMS. Some record labels are quite happy with DRM-less downloads.
Parent
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:4, Interesting)
Until then, I'll fulfill my music downloading tastes with unencrypted MP3, AAC and FLAC from Bleep, Tunetribe and 4AD.
Please note: I'm not knocking eMusic or legal downloads in general (indeed, I spend about £20 a month buying tunes online compared to £0 on music two years ago). I just don't trust the way their UK store seems to be working. And yes, I did want a chance to try it out.
Parent
Re:emusic is adware (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, there is a difference, between spyware [wikipedia.org] and adware [wikipedia.org].
Secondly, I've been using their service for almost a year and have never had adware pushed on me. Frankly, the first site's description [f-secure.com] of the adware looked like shortcuts to sign up for their services. "Desktop and start menu links"? Come on...
I'm not even sure how accurate this information is. It was last updated almost a year ago. I do have an option to uninstall the eMusic download manager. And if you're concerned about your personal information being shared you can opt out [emusic.com]. Most people do not seem to have a problem with is, as eMusic is the second largest legitimate download service [networkitweek.co.uk].
Also, how do they "push" these files to you? Based on the links you provided it sounds more like Winamp [winamp.com] and other free software are bundling these shortcuts to help support their business.
I will say that I hate spyware, adware, and malware as much as the next guy, but it sounds like you're mostly spreading FUD here. I like eMusic and haven't had any problems with adware from them. Do you work for Apple?
Parent
Re:You know what they say about assumptions (Score:5, Informative)
Here's the link. [engadget.com]
Here's the relevant section:
Parent
Re:You know what they say about assumptions (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:PlaysForSure? (Score:5, Funny)
"The Aristocrats!"
Parent
PlaysForSure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hold up a sec (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hold up a sec (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah - they should give their hard earned money to the manufacturer before complaining that it's not something they want or would buy.
Parent
Re:Hold up a sec (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
End to End Solution (Score:5, Interesting)
RealNetworks and Sandisk have already stated their intent to do something similar, which reeks like all the PlaysForSure partners aren't too impressed with this move by Microsoft.
It's a trap! (Score:5, Interesting)
Just think about it.. just how dumb do you think MS are?
Re:It's a trap! (Score:4, Insightful)
My question about this is why, exactly, is microsoft even wasting their time on this? Who cares if apple sells a lot of ipods? It doesn't hurt Microsoft's bottom line. Most ipod users run windows on the desktop.
Parent
DRM is not infection (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a lock. A digital lock. Call it Digital Restrictions Management if you must (since it stills describe what it does), but not infection.
The general public already has their hands full trying to understand all this technological mumbo-jumbo. Let's not spread more FUD.
Re:DRM is not infection (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:DRM is not infection (Score:5, Informative)
You mean it adds DRM to files I already have? Files not bought through their online store?!
Based on what I've heard, it's not true that it adds DRM to all files on it. The issue is that it wraps DRM onto files that you wirelessly share with your Zune friends - whether you want it to or not, whether it's permitted to (Creative Commons licencing) or not.
An article about it at http://www.medialoper.com/hot-topics/music/zunes-b ig-innovation-viral-drm [medialoper.com]
Parent
Re:DRM is not infection (Score:4, Informative)
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/15/1
Parent
Re:DRM is not infection (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, so we have systems that work. They do what the user wants. Its a pretty healthy system overall.
DRM comes in pretending to be something that the user wants. It is a trojan horse, a virus. It is brought in, under the disguise of something that helps the system. Then, when it strikes, like this, it does nothing but hurt the system. It doesn't help the user, it hurts the user.
Like a virus, it turns the users own system against the user. It makes the system do what DRM owners (the viruses source) want. It is an infection that only works because it is becoming ubiquitous.
DRM is the classic slippery slope. If we accept the infection, if we don't fight it tooth and nail, then down the road when it really is in everthing, we will have turned over all control to the big boys who control the DRM.
It is a viral infection of the worst sort. It deserves to be described as such. This IS the battle for hearts and minds, and the enemy is not at all shy about casting precious freedom in their own jaundiced light. I say its time to call a spade a spade. This is infection.
This is the first symptom of the infection. Definitly past time to start treating this disease.
-Steve
Parent
Re:DRM is not infection (Score:4, Informative)
Normally I'd agree, as long as the files are and always have been restricted. Applying DRM to files that is not restricted, is viral. In fact, it's more "viral" than the GPL ever was, it's infectious by mere aggregation. The closest similarity are to the viruses that lock down your files, holding them hostage against the owner. I am the owner of those files (as far as Zune knows anyway), and Zune has no business applying their locks against me.
Parent
Ouch (Score:5, Funny)
The worst part is that their formats (WMA/WMV) have become the formats of choice for a large number of devices and services. And now those services are feeling what it's like to be a Microsoft customer. Ouch. Sorry guys, we should've told you to lube up first.
no contradiction (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft like DRM and the DMCA because it gives them the ability to implement differential pricing, erect bariers to entry, and have stronger negotiating positions; and they like DRM-breaking software because it makes their devices more useful. There is no contradiction in their behavior.
Of course, there is a contradiction tp their stated justifications for DRM, and it is important to bring this up prominently whenever Congress reconsiders DRM-related legislation.
Buy hardware and music without DRM. (Score:4, Insightful)
LOL, the RIAA will finally have somebody to sue! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:LOL, the RIAA will finally have somebody to sue (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Anyone not see this coming? (Score:5, Insightful)
Legal format conversions? (Score:4, Interesting)
Makes Sense (Score:4, Interesting)
While the decision will surely harm MS in the short term, and completely alienate all the other PlaysForSure software and hardware licensees (probably killing the format), it would definitely improve MS's long-term prospects, assuming it isn't pulled off the market after a year of dismal sales. If history is any indication, MS will stick with it, keep improving their offerings, and eventually have something that appeals to the lowest common denominator on the market.
PlayForSure is correctly named. (Score:5, Funny)
J Allard Interview - Link (Score:4, Informative)
A Lots of DVD ripping software out there that encodes to those formats, so the most popular formats out there, whether it's MPEG-4 or H.264, we'll support those.
Q When PlaysForSure was introduced, the premise was, we make it simple so that you don't have to worry about whether your player works with the music you're purchasing...
A. We've also found that there's a category of customers that say, "Give me a brand experience, advertise it to me on television; I want to be part of the digital music revolution, and that solution [PlaysForSure] doesn't work for me." So they're two complementary solutions -- not everyones gonna want Zune and not everyone's gonna want PlaysForSure. They're different paths there, and we're okay with both of them.
Extracts from The Engadget Interview: J Allard, Microsoft Corporate Vice President [engadget.com]
arrr (Score:4, Funny)
Because tis' Talk Like a Pirate Day. Gar, Where can I find a bottle o'rum?
The New IPod Killer (Score:5, Funny)
Need a new slogan... (Score:5, Funny)
"Plays for now."
"Plays for as long as we feel like it."
"Sure it plays. Trust us."
A real lack of confidence for consumers... (Score:4, Interesting)
Even for someone who's tech savvy, the uncertainty is disconcerting...
Re:DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
This was bound to happen. Let's see if anything good comes of it.
Parent
Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure he's advocating breaking any law, including the DMCA. He just maybe has a little different interpretation of the law than some. But neither his interpretation, nor the interpretation of those on the other side of the fence has actually been tested in court to my knowledge.
The DMCA makes a specific exception to itself for fair use provisions. In essence, it says that if you previously had a right to do something under existing copyright law, you still have a right to do that thing. What the DMCA does is ensure that DRM is protected against those trying to break existing copyright law. It says "if you break DRM for the purposes of infringing copyright, then you are breaking the law." (The fair use exception comes after the actual restrictions, but you have to read everything together to know what the law itself actually is. I'm convinced some people just stop reading once they've read the restrictions.) But since fair use is codified into copyright law, you're not breaking the law by breaking DRM. At least, that would have to be J. Allard's interpretation of the DMCA.
The ZDNet article says the DMCA makes certain exceptions, "none of which apply here." That's not necessarily true. The author is apparently assuming that breaking DRM to move your DVD's from disc to Zune or your PlaysForSure files from one device to another would not be covered under fair use provisions of copyright law. He may or may not be right, but the Supreme Court has in the past used format-shifting as an example of fair use, going all the way back to the Betamax decision. (The examples listed as fair use in the law itself are just that, examples. They do not encompass all potential fair uses.)
The DMCA is no doubt a draconian law. But a) it has not really been fully tested in court yet, mainly because the individual users it most directly affects don't have the money to pursue a lengthy court case, and b) it is open to as much interpretation as the fair use provision in existing copyright law.
The long and the short of it is I think this whole Zune thing is a big fiasco for Microsoft, but I don't necessarily agree that J. Allard is telling people to break the law.
Parent
do you live under a rock? (Score:5, Insightful)
If it is indeed allowed to do this, then where is the LEGAL software to do things that are "fair use" with DRM'd data? It doesn't exist.
Parent
Re:do you live under a rock? (Score:5, Insightful)
By this same reasoning, there is nothing illegal about circumventing CSS to rip a DVD you own to your iPod. However, you are expected to write your own tool to do so; nobody else is allowed to distribute it to you.
Yes, it's silly. But assuming you manage to get a program such as decss in your possession (which somebody will have to break the law to make happen), you can rip DVD's you own all day long without breaking the law.
As a disclaimer, IANAL. But, unlike a majority of the people I hear talking about the DMCA, I have actually at least read the law.
Parent
Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh I'm not, eh? Tell me then, what gives content providers the "right" to use DRM?
It sure as Hell isn't copyright law, because that exists in order to enlarge the Public Domain, for the benefit of the public!
There's a common misconception that information "belongs" to whoever thinks it up. The fact is, though, that it doesn't. It never has. Copyright law in the United States -- until recently -- reflected this, from the Constitution on down. It's only been after extensive lobbying by the RIAA etc. over the past few decades that opinion has changed. I can only hope it changes back before we all forget that we're the ones with an inherent right to our culture and become "information serfs!"
Parent
Re:DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with and support the original idea codified in the Constitution; that we should give authors a limited period were they can exclusively benefit from their work because I believe it does encourage them to produce more. I also try to pay for free software as often as possible because I appreciate the author's hard work and want to encourage them to continue. I'm not asking to get free stuff. All I'm demanding is to retain my rights as a human being and United States citizen.
Parent
Re:DRM (Score:5, Interesting)
-Kurt
Parent
Re:DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
You missed the point. Apparently, in some jurisdictions, media companies are entitled to a chunk of my money, when I buy CDRs to back-up my data. In other words, anything that you can bribe/bully your legislators into, becomes an entitilement. If we can get the laws changed, to outlaw DRM, then we will be 'entitled' to DRM-free content.
Parent
Stop buying DRM'ed music if you dislike it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Then don't do it. Even if you dislike doing it, each time you purchase tainted music files you're giving a show of support for DRM. Not only that, but it's financial support you're offering, which is perhaps the worst kind, as it directly allows for their deviant behavior to continue.
We know that DRM-encumbered media has many disadvantages. This Zune nonsense is a perfect example of that. So the best thing to do is to stop buying music from iTunes. Don't start buying music from whatever service Microsoft might offer. Don't buy CDs. Don't download MP3s.
What you should do is get involved with your local music scene. Get to know the bands and artists in your area, or the nearest city. Many times they're far more deserving of your financial support than the multimillionaire fucks in California, and their music is often so much better! Not only that, but you can interact with them personally, and possibly even collaborate with them to some extent (if you're a musician yourself). The best part of it all is that you're getting to listen to some decent music, and you're not supporting corrupt companies and DRM, but rather you're supporting your neighbors.
Parent
Re:Hate to defend M$, but... (Score:5, Informative)
This is related to the Zune's ability to share files with other Zune players.
More info here, all throughout the comments: http://www.zuneinsider.com/2006/09/answers_to_some .html [zuneinsider.com]
"There currently isn't a way to sniff out what you are sending, so we wrap it all up in DRM. We can't tell if you are sending a song from a known band or your own home recording so we default to the safety of encoding."
Parent