Slashdot Log In
You Need Not Be Paranoid To Fear RFID
Posted by
Zonk
on Mon Oct 10, 2005 05:32 AM
from the tales-of-horror dept.
from the tales-of-horror dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A story at the Boston Globe covers extensive privacy abuses involving RFID." From the article: "Why is this so scary? Because so many of us pay for our purchases with credit or debit cards, which contain our names, addresses, and other sensitive information. Now imagine a store with RFID chips embedded in every product. At checkout time, the digital code in each item is associated with our credit card data. From now on, that particular pair of shoes or carton of cigarettes is associated with you. Even if you throw them away, the RFID chips will survive. Indeed, Albrecht and McIntyre learned that the phone company BellSouth Corp. had applied for a patent on a system for scanning RFID tags in trash, and using the data to study the shopping patterns of individual consumers." I think they may be going a little overboard with their stance, but it's always interesting to talk about.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Just put them in your microwave (Score:5, Interesting)
(Or just use cash).
Re:Just put them in your microwave (Score:5, Insightful)
How do oyu microwave your brand new microwave?
What happens when your steel toe capped boots go in there?
Will the fabric on your GFs dress screw up if you you zap it?
Will the DVD you just bought be playable or writable?
thats just a few thoughts, but microwaving should be safe... YMMV
Parent
Re:Just put them in your microwave (Score:5, Funny)
Simple, buy a new micro that fits inside your old one.
> Will the DVD you just bought be playable or writable?
I doubt that the micro can do either.
Parent
Re:Just put them in your microwave (Score:5, Funny)
Or, as the Roman poet Juvenal might have said, Quis microwavet ipsos microwaves?
Parent
Re:Just put them in your microwave (Score:5, Interesting)
when they make rfid based paying cards
note that you dont need a nuclear bomb to create an emp wave, even smaller tools can do it, like the one linked to here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_f
passive rfid chips are especially vulnerable to this because they by themselves rely on the signal energy to respond at all.
Parent
The best way to fight high-tech is with low-tech (Score:4, Funny)
And if you have way too much time on your hands, you can swap them with your friends and neighbors for hours of fun and enjoyment.
Parent
Re:The best way to fight high-tech is with low-tec (Score:4, Funny)
Hilarity ensues from these outlyers of the marketing data.
Parent
Re:Just put them in your microwave (Score:5, Insightful)
and when the notes have RFID chips in them???
Parent
I would like to place a bet with you. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Just put them in your microwave (Score:5, Insightful)
It's just another case of Americans' short-sightedness, where the fact that some inconvenience in the short term would lead to significant benefits in the long term (in this case, lowered US currency production expenses, in non-trivial amounts) is completely irrelevant, and stating otherwise supports terrorism | Communism | Socialism | the Liberals | the hippies | $randomUnAmericanGroup.
Parent
Re:Just put them in your microwave (Score:5, Funny)
That's just great. One more lump in my pocket to feel inadequate about.
Parent
Re:Just put them in your microwave (Score:3, Informative)
The course of action here is obvious... (Score:5, Funny)
Are you out of your mind????? (Score:4, Funny)
Patent War Chest (Score:5, Insightful)
1) BellSouth is a huge company that can't figure out what to do about PTSN loses, much less how to deploy RFID scanners.
2) This is just a patent to be added to their war chest. Every large company is likely to be sued, so they need methods to fight back. Patents are often the most cost effective manner, since getting them is cheaper than mounting any defense against of a real lawsuit.
I see a market.. (Score:5, Interesting)
-jcr
DMCA voilation?? (Score:5, Insightful)
After all, it could be used to steal items from a store, or interfere with the RFID chips that people DON'T want deactivated!!!
It'll be classified as a burglary tool or something worse in short order, if there aren't aspects of such a devise that aren't already illegal.
Parent
The 'Necessary and Proper' Cycle (Score:5, Informative)
Soon we'll see laws against making 'precursors' to 'circumvention devices'; just you watch it happen.
Parent
Physical counteraction (Score:5, Funny)
Surely this is nothing a drill*/pair of scissors/giving up smoking/strong high-frequency magnetic field couldn't solve. After all, it's your RFID chip. So destroy it!
*You probably shouldn't try this if the chip is on a condom.
Condoms?!? (Score:5, Funny)
Duh, just wait until after your done with it
Actually, now that I think about it, I could see an interesting market for personal rfid scanners. You can sell it to women to take on first (or 2nd or 3rd) dates and it can scan for the product id's for condoms. That way they can catch a bit of a glimpse of what types of intentions (or hopes, or in the case of most
Parent
Re:Condoms?!? (Score:3, Funny)
Easier said than done. Even if I could be bothered, in a post-coital daze, to get out my Black & Decker and mangle the chip, the resulting noise and mess would hose the mood something proper. And as for waiting until morning and rummaging through the bin — no way!
You don't have to be paranoid - but it helps (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You don't have to be paranoid - but it helps (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Shopping patterns (Score:5, Interesting)
Like with Google ads, if I have to live with ads, I much prefer directed ones with at least some research behind them than undirected ones. In other words -- in this case with shoes, if they wished to send me ads by mail, I'd rather only get ads for men in my age than women and kids.
Of course, connecting these studies to other databases from other companies could make it very wrong, but that's another problem I think need other laws (unless there aren't any already -- IANAL).
And at least where I live, there are already laws against storing personally identifiable data in a database, such as your social security number. I guess age, gender, and other purely statistical data don't fall under this law, and I don't see a compelling reason to why it should. Is it really such a big deal?
Re:Shopping patterns (Score:3, Insightful)
Google doesn't connect me with my credit card number and name. It also does this up front, not going around to your house and going through your garbage.
Although it seems simple to me, pay cash, don't give any stores your name, phone number or postcode. If they insist, lie or stop shopping there.
Some things you might want to keep private. (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a short list of things that you might not want everyone knowing:
All of these things can be used against you by your employer or insurance company.
You only think you want targeted ads. Imagine your wife getting ads for the wrong brand of tampon at just the right time. That's how invasive and awful your phone company's snooping can be. The grocery store comes close right now. The targeting works as intended and is as annoying as hell because the stupid coupons are always for the wrong brand.
Finally, ask yourself what snooping through your garbage has to do with phone service. Is this why federal, state and local laws protect incumbent phone providers from competition? BellSouth, thank you for a new low.
Parent
Re:Some things you might want to keep private. (Score:5, Insightful)
In the near future, your neighbor, the blogger, might just decide you need to be put in your place by posting what his Acme RFID-Max SuperScanner can find next time you're away. And the Internet Wayback machine and Google may ensure that it is never difficult to retrieve or forgotten.
The best way to secure sensitive data is to NOT enable its collection in the first place. Unless you actually want a society where everyone is afraid to deviate from the community's blandest common denominator.
Parent
Re:Some things you might want to keep private. (Score:4, Insightful)
There was recently a case in my state where a fellow slipped and fell in a store and ended up needing to sue for medical treatment. It seemed like a pretty clear-cut case, but the store was trying to weasel out of responsibility and decided to pull up his "customer loyalty card" info and tried to use a defense implying that the guy was a drunkard based upon his alcohol purchases -- on the public record in court! Anyway, it didn't save their case and the guy won. And as I recall, he bought a lot for hosted parties and the like, and didn't drink much of it himself but irregardless he should never have been put in a position to defned his purchases let alone even needing to explain himself.
Anyway, it was the first time I actually saw the media show concern about all this personal data collection. And that was just with a store card. I stopped using all my store loyalty cards after that expose. RFID seems more insidious if anyone (think: lawyers) can scan your car, house, or trash trying to establish patterns for whatever reason. The old 'I have nothing to hide' argument doesn't mean we should allow any of this, because it will be abused. No one should have to actively think or worry about how their shopping purchases might look to uninvolved RFID observers after the fact, especially when it can be so easily twisted against you.
Parent
Re:Some things you might want to keep private. (Score:5, Interesting)
2. Your method of birth control. . .
3. Medications especially for things like anti-depressants or treatments for STDs. . .
4. The books you read. . .
All of these things can be used against you by your employer or insurance company.
HOW? You can't just throw FUD out there and hope it sticks. How these things could be used against you?
Just a few examples off the top of my head.
1. Alcohol. Higher insurance premiums for drinkers, or heavy drinkers, or malt-liquor drinkers. The question of did he or did he not actually consume it would be irrelevant for the users of the data, they're not trying to prove it in a court of law, they're just using it as an excuse.
2. Birth Control. Again, higher insurance premiums for people who use too many (or too few) condoms. Increased risk of STDs and pregnancy. Or maybe you're the IT director at some fundamentalist whack-job church -- any purchase of birth control gets you sacked for not being fruitful and multiplying enough.
3. Perscriptions. Your employer probably already knows if you're on the company insurance plan, and your insurance company certainly knows unless you self pay. But again, insurance co. would love to know as much as possible about you, legal or not. They're not going to tell you they went through your trash.
4. Books. Again, I think we'd assume for harassment purposes that you read any book you buy. Whole categories of readers could be assumed to be untrustworty in their jobs because of their reading habits. Jobs with secrets, or working with children, or the elderly, or in a pharmacy, just to name a few.
I imagine someone paid to come up with evil things to do with personal infomation (like HR director or Insurance risk-analyst) could make a much longer list than mine.
Also, with regard to "throwing FUD out there" . . . the "U" is "uncertainty", the unknown. You cannot, by definition, enumerate the unknown. It's difficult to discuss the future without some degree of speculation.
Parent
Re:Some things you might want to keep private. (Score:4, Insightful)
So do many insurance companies. Which, of course, was his point.
There's no way to know WHEN you used a condom....
Unless each one were individually tagged. Next morning out goes the garbage with a couple of condoms in it. But never mind that. Purchasing records show Tom Jones picking up a 10-pack of Trojans on the way home from work on Monday. Friday night he purchases another. That alone tells us a hell of a lot about Tom's sex life, even if we don't know exactly when each condom did duty.
You CAN'T penalize someone for seeking treatment for a disease/disorder in the US. The ADA makes it a civil rights violation to do so.
But I can easily imagine drug companies bedding down with insurance firms to subtly pressure their customers into seeking the right brand of treatment. And in the real world it's only a violation if you get caught. Remember, age- and race-discrimination are also civil rights violations. Doesn't change the fact that it happens a hundred thousand times a day in the U.S., and 99.44% of the time it's damn near impossible to prove.
Unless of course you believe your employer/the government is going to follow you home and scan your books while you're out.
Ah, then you've forgotten the flap over Amazon.com's "purchasing circles" back in '99. Do employers care about what their employees read? Damn straight they do. Just ask the Microsoftees who found themselves in deep doo-doo when Microsoft discovered they had been purchasing anti-MS books.
Only a couple of years ago RFID tags couldn't be read from more than a few inches away. Today it's 30 feet. Within a few years it will be possible to inventory your entire house in a couple of seconds from inside a moving vehicle. Insurance companies would love to know what's sitting inside your medicine cabinet or fridge. Legal or not, I expect in the near future drive-by scannings will become part of the standard background check all insurance companies and employers do.
Or forget insurance companies. I imagine even those of us who have nothing to hide are happier living in a country where police can't just come barging in our doors on a whim. There's a reason police need subpoenas for anything that's not in plain sight. But we're now entering a world where police can search our homes from the comfort of their squad cars, where every police-wielded radar gun has a built-in RFID scanner, and "plain sight" just may include anything in the EMF range.
Lee Kaiwen
Parent
Calm Down: You're Being Paranoid (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Calm Down: You're Being Paranoid (Score:5, Insightful)
RFID on EVERYTHING means that anomalies like that become less and less significant. Cross-reference enough data and you can spot patterns without having the faintest idea why they're there. (There's actually a famous psychiatric test based on this principle, though the name escapes me. Basically, it's a bunch of crazyass questions designed to give the shrink a statistical probability that you're suffering from a mental disease. The individual answers themselves are irrelevant; only the statistical whole counts. Thus, the potential for an individual to purposefully alter his answers is in effect built into the final percentages--there's really no way to cheat.)
You've missed the point completely. How often do you send shoes to someone living 3,000 miles away? Do you think Nike or Reebok care about the handful of people who've done such a thing? Marketing people only care about the fat, juicy center of the bell curve. Yeah, there are also those niche markets at the edges, but the instant you change your focus to that niche, then it becomes the center of the bell curve.
On the whole this isn't all terribly evil so long as it's used for relatively non-obnoxious advertisements, but the potential for abuse by insurance agencies, banks, law enforcement, etc. is very, very high. If you're not in the statistical norm for the targeted advertisement, who cares? You ignore the ad. But if you're far out of the statistical norm for "law abiding citizen" and the local PD finds out, you can bet your ass you'll be hounded until the day you die (or move to a saner country.) It won't matter if you're an exception; it won't matter if there's only a 55% chance you're a criminal. They'll do it because it's efficient. It'll be like racial profiling except it will apply to every single minority conceivable, from Yanni fans to gays to diehard otakus to atheists. Your difficultly in the world will be inversely related to your conformity. Stray too far out of the norm and your insurance rates will skyrocket, you credit rating will plunge, and cops will look at you that much harder next time they've got an unsolved crime on their hands.
It's not bizzare; it's not even inherently evil. Living by statistics is just an efficient way of doing things. The problem is that greater efficiency is bought with something far more precious; individuality. For now, I can ignore the ads, but for heaven's sake let's not get complacent.
Parent
Ubiquity (Score:5, Interesting)
=> EULA when you buy a Ralph Lauren shirt, making it illegal to disable the tag?
=> Extra tax if you nuke your trash before putting it by the roadside? ("WallMart has a right to know!")
=> Automatic searches at the airport when a scan of your luggage turns results that deviate from the norm?
=> A new "coming of age" rutual, whereby you have your mandatory kiddy-goes-to-school tag removed when you turn 18 21?
Generally, who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
- what my spending habits are like (empty product boxes along with the other trash)
- what my diet is like
- what my consumption rate is
- what my interests are (above mentioned product boxes, tossed junk mail, etc)
- what my personal timeline is like (how much trash is developed at various times)
- samples of my dna (various personal care item cast offs, hair, finger nails, etc)
- samples of my finger prints
and lord knows what else. Really, all we're really talking about here for the average person is that they can do several of the above without getting really messy and stinky.
Re:Generally, who cares? (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe you don't.
Parent
Yeah, rivetting subject... (Score:5, Funny)
I think you may be confusing RFID with womens beach volleyball.
I hate to break it to you... (Score:5, Interesting)
We've been over this before (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally I would like to have it in some items. Books and DVD's could be quickly added to my delicious library [delicious-monster.com] (currently I scan the barcode), I could manage the inventory in my kitchen much better (which would integrate well with recipe software) and it would be great if I could just put my wine on the racks in my cellar and not have to track it manually.
Take off your tinfoil hat and put on your thinking cap. Let's figure out how to take advantage of a great technology and figure out how to make it safe.
Need a portable tag shredder (Score:5, Insightful)
Mistaken Identity! (Score:5, Interesting)
Suddenly, 15 FBI agents slam your face into the dirty floor and take you away for questioning in hand cuffs. You submit to a DNA test (no, not like the CSI TV show, it really does take a long time). It will take days if not weeks to prove they got the wrong person !!! In the meantime, there is no way they are going to let you out.
Since perception is reality, you lose your job, your wife, your friends, etc...etc... because you're a deviant child molester. I mean, you must be, the evening news said you're a suspected deviant so it must be true.
Perhaps a little bit extreme for an example but not out of the range of RFID possibility.
Re:Mistaken Identity! (Score:5, Funny)
Crimety, you're right! If only people would carry their name and photo on a little piece of plastic inside their wallet, with a copy of the same information backed up on a network law enforcement had access to, then we wouldn't have to wait a week to prove our identities! We could just show the card!
Parent
Shoplifters have already worked this out (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh, the irony (Score:5, Funny)
I seem to remember that, back in the day, a large portion of the information used in phone phreaking was gathered through dumpster diving for internal manuals at Ma Bell. I guess turnabout really is fair play.
Chilling effect (Score:5, Insightful)
His organization has a code of ethics
In other words, the RFID maker claims to have a code of ethics, but doesn't want to be held to that code.
That smells to me like his code of ethics is going straight out of the window the instant it suits him.
You should be more paranoid (Score:5, Interesting)
I've seen the amount of information they collect at these POS systems. You use a credit/debit card, your card encodes your zip code, first name, last name. Your purchase is collected already by scanning the item into the register.
Your info is then sent to the 3 credit bueraus and your infor is merged with those large databasese. If you give your email to the retailer, your email is attached to your credit report. Through those credit reports the credit bueraus then sends back your address to the retailer and all other information the retailer can afford.
Your information is already available in catalog dealers, your internet info is available at experian online (yup experian started an internet division). How much you make and how much own is already available at experian, transunion and can't remember the last one.
The retailer already got the information they need, RFID is just a way to track inventory, really no joke. RFID does not add any additional information that the retail/catalog industry does not already have. Oh yea, they used to be able to get large amount of info through the DMV before 9/11.
Experian will sell your info to ANYBODY at the right price, private detective already have this ability, without license. Now the funny thing is the only person that has a hard time getting your info, is yourself! Oh yea don't get me started on the 2 files they keep, one public one that you see, and one that is hidden, that keeps every single transactions you've made in your life. the law says some items fall off the report, but the hiden one is available to anybody with money and can make your life horrible. There are no laws saying that your bank need to tell you they based their decision on this second file. So you think your report is clean, but the hidden one says otherwise. Oh yea that second one contains all your purchase habbits too.
God where's my hat? I can't see an after market of people scanning garbage from a particular locale/district etc. The marketing drones already have this information. Retailers routinely sell their lists to each other. Catelogs company give them to each other as "gifts". Or worse TRADED like comodity. You people are not paranoid enough!
Re:You should be more paranoid (Score:4, Insightful)
And if people become upset about how much information truly is stored, then public outcry may see some changes made. As long as the information collection is effectively invisible, then it will be difficult to get the public excited about this.
Parent
Re:Associated credit cards with products? (Score:3, Insightful)
Barcodes do not identify the individual item.
Barcodes cannot be remotely scanned without the owner noticing.
Barcodes are usually on the packaging material and not on the product.
Re:FUD (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Unwanted Advertising? (Score:4, Insightful)
I (and lots of others) have no problems remembering to pick up a liter or two of milk on the way home from work, and this is without having to have some chip installed in my refrigerator, recycling bin, garbage can, whatever...
Parent
Re:Paranoia is egotism (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent