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Peerflix Launches P2P DVD Sharing Service

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Tue Sep 20, 2005 07:29 PM
from the more-than-one-way-to-skin-a-cat dept.
Dotnaught writes "Peerflix has offically launched, ending a 12 month beta test. The company manages the peer-to-peer trading of physical DVDs (with CDs and videogames coming soon) by mail. As the article in InformationWeek suggests, while such trades may be legal under the first-sale doctrine of U.S. Copyright Act, content owners won't be pleased -- discs are easy to copy and there's ample precedent to suggest users will dupe discs before trading them."
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  • by way2trivial (601132) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:31PM (#13610046) Homepage Journal
    rent it all, copy and send back? is this less/more offensive than netflix= just because there is no monthly fee?
    • by ghstomahawks (847102) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:33PM (#13610070)
      exactly ... but it happens anyway. The real genius is a company finding a way to make money off of illegal scheming of peoples. Rock on!
    • Speaking of "no monthly fee", does anybody know how much this costs? I noticed it is not free, but I couldn't find how much it costs to be a member, and when/why they take the fees.
      • RTFA (Score:3, Informative)

        "A 99-cent transaction fee is charged for each DVD acquired, and there's a $4.95 signup fee that includes five free trades. To each trade, add the cost of 37 cents for postage; there's also the cost of ink and a piece of paper that will become the self-printed disc mailer."
    • by NineNine (235196) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:41PM (#13610121) Homepage
      And why would I even consider using this instead of Netflix? With Netflix, I have every DVD I could imagine one day away, and if there's something wrong with it, they'll send me a replacement. With this setup, I'm getting DVD's in who-knows-what condition, in who-knows-how-much time from who-knows-who. Oh yeah, and I'm still paying, possibly more than Netflix. Where do I sign up?
      • by dasunt (249686) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @09:47PM (#13610716)

        Different strokes for different folks.

        Assume that you get 3 movies out each week from Netflix for $17.99. That's $215.88/year, and with 52.18 weeks in the year, that's 156.54 movies a year, for the cost of $1.38/movie.

        Peerflix costs about the same ($.99 + $.37 = $1.36/movie).

        So what is better? If I wanted to rent movies, I'd use Netflix. If I wanted to own movies by trading out movies I don't like in my collection, I'd use Peerflix.

        Disclaimer: Happy Netflix customer. ;) I prefer to rent, not own.

    • by dasunt (249686) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:50PM (#13610175)

      This is more offensive because it encourages you to use your rights under the first-sale doctrine.

      It also pisses them off because no money flows to them. Netflix and every video store also annoys them, but its (mostly) too late to stop that, at least in the short term.

      They won't be happy until they get a fee everytime a person views their movie.

      Greedy bastards, aren't they?

  • Asks about piracy (Score:4, Informative)

    by sdaug (681230) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:32PM (#13610055)
    I've been using Peerflix through the beta test. Every time I receive a disc, it asks me if it appears to be pirated. I assume they would then take action against the sender if this is the case, but I don't know for sure.
    • by modemboy (233342) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:34PM (#13610079)
      How would you tell if someone pirated it?
      I believe the submitter is suggesting that the end user would make a copy, keep the copy, then send on the original, not the copy...
      • by Neil Blender (555885) <neilblender@gmail.com> on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:40PM (#13610111)
        How would you tell if someone pirated it?

        I usually see a little box drawn on the disc with a sharpie. Next to the box, the word "copied" is written. If there is a check in the little box, well, you know it's been pirated.
      • by xenocide2 (231786) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:42PM (#13610125) Homepage
        Actually, you're forgetting pirated in Hong Kong / China pirated. The far more popular kind of pirated. I've seen plenty of pirated hardware for consoles, and the same holds true for DVDs. The worksmanship is far superiour to your average burnt in a DVD-r quality, but still not a decent release. Pirated carts are typically much easier to spot, since they usually don't work right and the labels look like trash. This is the sort of piracy that netflix can prevent by purchasing in bulk from reputable distributers, that peerflix can't quite filter for.

        But the submitter probably was suggesting the usual rent-burn-return piracy. It's just not the only form out there is all.
      • A friend worked at blockbuster for a year or two (in the UK) and she was adamant that they could know if a disc they rented out had been copied by the renter.

        When they'd find someone with suspicious renting patterns, they'd collect all the discs he returned and send them off for "analysis"

        It's an interesting idea to convince your employees and even store managers that you are capable of doing something technically impossible, presumably with the hope that it'll trick your customers too.
        • That is complete and utter bullshit. There is no possible way that they could tell that the disc was copied from. How, exactly, would they be able to do that? To copy a disc, all you'd have to do is, um, read it. You know, with a laser. Just like when you play it.

          So they'd be able to tell if somebody scanned it with a laser one time as opposed to others? I don't think so.
              • No way dude! it's totally true!
                My uncle's brother's friend's cousin's auntie's dog's hairdresser's sister got busted by the FBI for returning DVDs she copied! They totally flipped out and busted down her door and everything!

                And she's not even American - she lives in Wales

                Free DVD Gwendolyn!
      • by flyingsquid (813711) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @09:38PM (#13610666)
        How would you tell if someone pirated it?

        Scratch marks. The pirate will leave scratch marks when they put the disk in its packaging 'cos they have a hook hand.

        Plus, the notes on the back of the box differ in telltale ways from the usual fare, for example they might say stuff like "Ahar me mateys, this be a fine film, 'two hooks up' raves the critics! The whole crew will rejoice at this swashbuckler of a picture, plus an extra DVD with a treasure chest of bonus scenes! Rated ARRRRRR!"

    • The problem isn't sending pirated discs, but pirating the disc for personal use and then sending the original back.

      Me, I've attempted to use way too many pirated discs (it wasn't mine, it was given to me by friend(s) and I didn't realise until I started watching it). The quality has been so shit that I've given up. Sure there's ways to pirate stuff while keeping the quality, but I've been burned so many times (friend rents a DVD and burns it) that I've given up with all of it and now refuse to watch any pir
  • Fighting The Waves (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JordanL (886154) <{jordan.ledoux} {at} {gmail.com}> on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:36PM (#13610090) Homepage
    How would any media corporation of any kind fight something like this on any principal but that they think all their users are lying, cheating bastards?

    And even then... would companied like Paramount have to sue themselves for owning something like Blockbuster?
    • by Barbarian (9467) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:39PM (#13610107)
      They already think everyone who uses their product is a lying cheating bastard who deserves their scorn.

      Reference:
      - the "do not pirate" commericals in a theatre, after you've paid to see the movie
      - The FBI warning at the beginning of every DVD that you can't fast-forward through
      - Unskippable advertisements on DVDs, especially rentals
      • Can't forget the FBI anti-piracy warning now being printed ON the disks, yes they ruin the woderful disk art are by printing the anti-piracy seal on the disk itself. "FBI Anti-Piracy Warning: Unauthorized copying is punishable under federal law" yes, I know that and since I paid for it and own it I'm only going to make the authorized copy for my iPod. When are they going to realize that when someone buys something they're not going to turn around and give it away? The "pirates" who distribute it are the on
        • In my experience this does usually work, but it does depend on both the player and how stringently the DVD was authored. I have had some DVDs that are extremely locked down where I cannot skip past certain things no matter what buttons I push (on my Panasonic DVD-R30). Even when one of the buttons does work (menu, next chapter, FF (4 times to get it to 16x and then still some waiting), title), it's still irritating to have to have tried all those combinations just to skip some stupid screen or advertiseme
  • Yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JoeCommodore (567479) <larry@portcommodore.com> on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:42PM (#13610124) Homepage
    Like I'm really want to keep a copy of the new Planet of the Apes movie or the new Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy... Studios only wish I wanted those so badly.

    Maybe thet's it, people will realize what turkys they are when Peerflix gets flooded with those loosers.

  • - discs are easy to copy".

    Well, content owners will NEVER be pleased, what they'd like you to do is pay $$$$$ and keep the stuff.

    There will always be people that copy (be it legal or not). But this creates an opportunity for those people who don't want to spend lots of money on new films but want to stay legitimate as well.
  • This is GREAT! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by GecKo213 (890491) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:45PM (#13610139) Homepage

    I like the whole idea. In fact, my friends and I have been doing this for years now. We never buy the same game (unless it's needed to play networked games) and just pass it around between each other when we're finished. Always have new games to play and typically at about 1/4 the cost.

    Now it has happened and will continue to happen that we all like the game so much that we end up buying our individual copies of the game anyway. I really like this idea though!

  • by Asprin (545477) <gsarnold@NOspAM.yahoo.com> on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:47PM (#13610149) Homepage Journal

    I used to do this with my friends in college - I bought Eye of the Beholder, he bought Ultima Underworld. When we finished them, we'd trade boxes.
  • by verbatim_verbose (411803) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:48PM (#13610157)
    Yet, they aren't worried about this happening with Blockbuster rentals or Netflix? Give me a break.

    Seems to me that labelling anything as a cooperative act between peers leads to mad content owners.
  • by Matt2k (688738) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:49PM (#13610167)
    If you're just going to trade casually, this service might work okay. Hopefully your sender will mail the disc on time and isn't away on vacation. Does anyone know how long it usually takes to get a request?

    On the other hand, if you're someone who really wants to watch a lot of movies, wants to count on being able to get new releases relatively soon, I don't know if this would work out so hot. With Netflix for $18/mo if you really push it, you can get maybe 9-12 DVDs a month. Of course if you sit on your discs, you might only get five or six a month. But they at least ship stuff on a schedule, not whenever they feel like hunting down a DVD and walking it out to the mailbox. I guess I'm just pretty cynical, and relying upon other Joes to send me their movies in a reasonalble timeframe with reasonable quality.

    Do I get this right.. You print out the mailer from your printer?

    And movies are assigned "peerbux" ratings, so you can't offer up a bunch of Clint Eastwood movies from the 70s and expect to get the complete Sopranos in return? How does that work? You need to build up a library of good movies so you can give them away? I'm not understanding.

    *shrug*

    I just don't see it as being worth the hassle, but good for you if you like it.
      • What you are suggesting won't work. You don't get CREDIT for your trade-ins until they are received by the person(s) you sent them to and they rate if the DVD(s) were working. Once you have CREDIT or peerbux you can then request a DVD be sent to you.
  • by dtfinch (661405) * on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:56PM (#13610211) Journal
    People already rip rental DVD's. I can't imagine the problem getting much worse with traded DVD's.
  • by multiplexo (27356) * on Tuesday September 20 2005, @07:59PM (#13610229) Journal
    refer to in the article. It sounds like FUD to me, DVDs are nowhere near as easy to copy as CDs, especially if it's a dual layer DVD.

    It would be nice if these media retards understood that the reasons why MP3s took off in the late 1990s was that hard drive capacities increased dramatically in a short period of time relative to the capacity of CD-ROMs, because CD-RW drives became real cheap all of a sudden and because the people who liked making mix tapes really liked a format that was a lot easier to deal with that allowed you to make mix CDs with hundreds of songs just by pointing and clicking. None of these things apply with DVDs, the biggest hard drive you can get today will only hold 100 uncompressed DVD images (I'm assuming that we don't want further compression because it degrades the image which looks like shit on a big screen TV), people don't make video mix tapes (although it would be kind of interesting) and also because it's still a pain in the ass to strip CSS off of DVDs. Jesus Christ, could these lazy media bastards just put down the grape-flavored MPAA piracy Kool-Aid for once?

    • DVDShrink (Score:4, Informative)

      by Alaren (682568) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @08:10PM (#13610280) Homepage

      Uh, check out DVDShrink [dvdshrink.org]. Not only will it strip CSS, it will automatically calculate the necessary compression ratio to transfer that dual-layer disc onto a single-layer disc. If you want to preserve quality, you can cut out special features, or just rip the main track and remove all menus, previews, etc.

      Sure, it might not be quite as nice as the original, but about 30% of the DVDs I've backed up were single-layer anyways, and I enjoy being able to easily rip out the stupid mandatory preview tracks.

      This program and many others like it make DVD copying a breeze; some of the advanced functionality might scare people off, but for the most part it's point and click.

      So while I think the MPAA has a lot of things wrong--like bascially their entire distribution model as well as their take on piracy, in the U.S. if not globally--they are correct in believing that DVDs are easily copied.

    • (I'm assuming that we don't want further compression because it degrades the image which looks like shit on a big screen TV)

      Don't blame the problems you've had with some particular crappy codec on "compression" as a whole.

      Using libavcodec, I can re-encode a DVD to MPEG-2 at 1/2 the size or sometimes less. With MPEG-4, halve that again (1/4 the size) but won't play on most DVD players. And that's all without artifacts, without quality degredation of any kind (even on a "big screen"). In fact, the copies

    • your post is valid, I am not debating that for the average person you are 100% correct.

      However, I have a 42" plasma HDTV connected to the buffalo linktheater. I have been ripping all my DVD's to divx format and placing them on my hard disk (which is streamed to the linktheater, when it requests.)
      when I rip to divx format, I do 2 pass encoding, to a VBR of 2kbps, this makes a 2 hour DVD about 2 Gig. for everything, put blue sky shots, it is impossible to tell on this TV the difference from the 2 gig divx f
  • Amazing, Isn't It? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Master of Transhuman (597628) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @08:05PM (#13610255) Homepage

    The "average user" can't (according to the Windows shills) figure out how to run Linux - but they can figure out how to duplicate a DVD and then share it over a P2P network (according to said "average users" writing for the RIAA and MPAA).

    What's wrong with this picture?
    • 1) Put DVD in drive
      2) Click on "Clone DVD"
      3) Wait for popup message to say "Change disks"
      4) Change disks
      5) Write name of DVD on disk.

      Gosh. That's _much_ harder than learning Linux.
  • by voisine (153062) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @08:11PM (#13610282)
    why not sell your stuff for cash. http://replaylink.com/ [replaylink.com] you get the full purchase price minus a $1 service fee and the Amazon seller fee, and it's as easy as returning a netflix rental. They send you an addressed postage paid media mailer.
    • by great throwdini (118430) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @08:46PM (#13610442)

      you get the full purchase price minus a $1 service fee and the Amazon seller fee.

      Uh, you get the sale price less the Amazon seller fee and a $1 service charge. It's not based off the original purchase price, as resold DVDs typically don't sell for anywhere near original cost to you. And who gets the extra amount Amazon reimburses for shipping (which is treated separately from its fees)?

      Whomever is behind replaylink.com is basically printing out the mailer and charging you for that nicety. Why not sell it yourself and not pay the fee? It's pretty easy to list items for sale on Amazon, with no need to share information with another third-party.

      It also seems a bit shady vis-a-vis Amazon's resale policy, what with a seller listing items for trade that aren't in its direct possession ... neat idea, but it basically introduces a second middle-man (in addition to Amazon) to the transaction between true buyer and true seller.

  • they are called 'Libraries'

    check one out some time.
  • by grumpygrodyguy (603716) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @08:22PM (#13610326)
    The only right movie producers have is to exclusively show first viewings in movie theaters. That's the only right they've ever had for the last 100 years since films were first made.

    The fact that digitization is making it easier and easier to distribute this media after the showing in theatres is completely beyond the moral scope of these companies.

    They quite simply found a lot of free cash in the 80s with cable TV distribution and VHS rentals. That free cash was never theirs by right in the first place, and they offered a viable distribution service back then...those times are over, and the right to reap all those free profits is being taken back by the real bosses in a free market, the customer.

    Eat shit and die MPAA/RIAA
  • by Rageon (522706) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @08:22PM (#13610327)
    I've been using Peerflix for a couple months and have been relatively satisfied with it. It's proven to be a good way to get rid of all those old DVDs that would have either gathered dust for years or fetched me 3 bucks at a pawn shop. I've gotten plenty of movies as gifts or free throw-ins with things that I never wanted in the first place, or others that I bought but later realized I never watched. Frankly, the $1 it costs to upgrade a crappy movie to something else is well worth it.

    I've only had 1 problem so far. I got a copy of Night of the Living Dead that was scrathed to hell. When it arrived, it played, so I confirmed it. Of course, when I played it, I found that a couple minutes would not play. But because I had let a week or so pass between receipt and claim, I was out of luck. I wrote about 5 emails to their CS about this, and got 1 response, which really had nothing to do with my complaint. But otherwise nearly all the movies I've gotten are in very good condition.

    The bad part is that a lot of movies are technically "available", but might only be in the hands of 1 or 2 other users, neither of which actually intends to share their copy, but has it listed for one reason or another. So it sometimes takes a few weeks (or more) to get some movies. Also, maybe half the movies I listed have been requested by others. But then again, I didn't expect the demand to be extremely high for that copy of The Mask someone gave me. Generally, good movies get requested fairly quickly.

    If you have a specific movie in mind that you want right away, Peerflix isn't the best solution. But if you have a list of 20 or so movies you would like to get eventually, it's a nice service.

    My only other complaint would be that when your "Peerbux" goes to zero, it automatically charges another $5 worth to you, rather than waiting until you actually want to buy something. This is obviously a nice way for the company to get a few bucks extra from everyone in the end, but it strikes me as shadey.

    As far a Piracy goes, well, it's really no different than renting movies or using Netflix, so I think it's a non-issue as it pertains to Peerflix specifically.

  • by NetDanzr (619387) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @09:21PM (#13610592)
    Back in the days, I used to swap computer games on UGTZ.com. Later they added books and movies swaps, and I participated in both. By the time I completed my collection and left the site, I haven't heard of anybody suing them for anything.
  • First Sale (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Arandir (19206) on Tuesday September 20 2005, @10:16PM (#13610866) Homepage Journal
    ...while such trades may be legal under the first-sale doctrine of U.S. Copyright Act...

    That's just because it isn't software. On more than one occasion I have been told by software companies that selling your used copy was illegal, even if the sale included all packing material and an affidavit that you wiped your harddrive of the product. They argue that the First Sale Doctrine does not apply to them because the software was never sold, only licensed. They have shut down eBay sales of software and sent cease and desist notices to yard sales.

    All the DVD manufacturers need to do to stop Peerflix, is to slap a license on every DVD. It won't be legal, but that hasn't stopped the software industry or its lapdogs in the judiciary.
    • Re:First Sale (Score:4, Informative)

      by Mr2001 (90979) on Wednesday September 21 2005, @12:18AM (#13611322) Homepage Journal
      They argue that the First Sale Doctrine does not apply to them because the software was never sold, only licensed.

      District courts in California and Texas have disagreed [wikipedia.org]
      Specifically, the ruling decreed that software purchases be treated as sales transactions, rather than explicit license agreements. In other words, the court ruling argued that Californian consumers should have the same rights they would enjoy under existing copyright legislation when buying a CD or a book.

      If you're in Missouri, though.. watch out.
  • by ChaosDiscord (4913) on Wednesday September 21 2005, @02:47PM (#13616309) Homepage Journal

    When you mail someone a DVD you don't want any more, it's like walking into Best Buy, shoplifting a DVD, and shooting the cashier on the way out.

    It's unfortunate, but pirates are using this "postal system" to destroy the value created by hard working movie creators. If the postal system is allowed to go on unchecked it will destroy the movie industry. No movies will ever be made again.

    We question the use of this so called postal "service". The creators should have known that it would be abused this way. However, some people claim that there are legal and valid uses for the postal system. Fortunately there is a very reasonable compromise, Digital Rights Management in the postal system. This will close the analog hole. When you mail something, a postal employee will open up your mail and carefully examine what is inside. If it's a copyright protected movie on DVD, or copyright protected music on CD, or a copyright protected page torn out of a magazine, the employee will refuse to deliver the message. Your average US Postal Service customer won't notice any change. Only pirates will be inconvienced.

    We here at the MPAA trust that all law abiding, moral citizens will support this perfect plan. We also look forward to your support for our future plan to monitor all physical human contact to eliminate the "handing a DVD to your friend" loophole.

    Sincerely, the perfectly reasonable MPAA who is doing this for your own good.

    • "So, does this 99 cents cover the cost of your disc in case it is never returned? Basicly their service is a 'loaner's insurance' not a distribution cost."

      You're not lending out the disc; you are trading it for peerbux, which you can use to purchase movies on your want list -- provided you pay the admin fee.

      The $0.99 is to cover administrative costs for the transaction (and to pay the owners of the company and their lawyers).

      This, other than the fact that it
      (1) is trading physical products; and
      (2) c
    • It would be the MPAA and not the RIAA. However, I don't see how the MPAA could win. PeerFlix is the same exact thing as EBay. Peerflix is just the middle-man handling the LEGAL transaction between two citizens exercising their right of First-sale.

      The only option the MPAA would have would seem to be to bribe the corrupted politicians to pass a new law banning First-sale doctrine [wikipedia.org].

      I just signed up for the service to give it a try. I have some DVD's that I just don't watch anymore. There is no legal re

    • There would be greater difficulty in doing so. There is an exception in the statutory first sale doctrine, which prohibits renting sound recordings and computer software (other than console games).

      While you can just go out and rent DVDs as you like, you'd have to argue that you were actually selling the CDs and that it wasn't a convoluted rental scheme.

      Libraries have an exception, but not just anyone is a library.