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Hardware Your Rights Online

Blu-Ray To Punish Users for Modifying Hardware 557

Posted by ScuttleMonkey from the you-can-buy-it-but-it-isn't-yours dept.
datemenatalie writes "As reported on Engadget, consumers should expect punishment for tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely. As the article asks, "Are they talking about PVP-OPM techniques and rejected HDMI keys, or something else far more sinister? Because apparently "A hacked player is any player that is doing something it's not supposed to do," which open to a pretty fair amount of interpretation--most of which egregious.""
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Blu-Ray To Punish Users for Modifying Hardware More

Blu-Ray To Punish Users for Modifying Hardware

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  • I'm sorry dave (Score:5, Funny)

    by ErikPeterson ( 912282 ) <`moc.nosretepgkire' `ta' `sretxed'> on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:40PM (#13478147)
    You have been watching too much porn your dvd player has been locked to watch G rated movies from now on.

    Enjoy bambi!

  • I hope we have a solid record for the future (Score:5, Insightful)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:40PM (#13478150)
    When we tell kids about a time when it used to be possible for people "own" things.

    Savage times, those were.

    • Re:I hope we have a solid record for the future (Score:5, Funny)

      by Em Ellel ( 523581 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:53PM (#13478262)
      When we tell kids about a time when it used to be possible for people "own" things.

      We do have the records, but DRM prohibits us from showing them.

    • Re:I hope we have a solid record for the future (Score:5, Insightful)

      by HotNeedleOfInquiry ( 598897 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:49PM (#13478652)
      The end of private property as we know it.

      What would happen if say, a company that made toasters could detect what you were toasting. Toast an english bagel in the morning, come home at night and find out someone has come into your home and cut the power cord off your toaster.

      I, for one, think it is criminal act for a company to destroy *my* property because they didn't like what I was using it for. I can only hope the courts will find likewise.
      • It sounds like blu ray is going to be more of a service than a product. I assume their will be players that don't require a net connection, the soultion is to use one of those I guess. I guess it all depends on how compelling the online extras are, to be honest i hardly watch DVD extras anymore, they used to be cool when they were new. As long as i have the movie i'll be happy.

      • Re:I hope we have a solid record for the future (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Esion Modnar ( 632431 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @05:04PM (#13479117)
        think it is criminal act for a company to destroy *my* property because they didn't like what I was using it for

        Seem to recall that in some state where radar detectors are (or were) illegal, state troopers used to destroy the illegal devices on the spot, when found. But later on, this was challenged in court as punishment without due process, and won.

        Allowing this summary punishment seems to send the message that vigilantism is OK, so long as you are a big company. The same behavior on the part of individuals (such as defacing a website whose political views you don't like) usually gets them some quiet time behind bars.

        The other message: justice is not blind.

    • Well you won't have to (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @04:34PM (#13478878)
      If you just refuse to buy this shit. Encourage everyone you know to boycott Blu-ray. Remember Divx? No not the MPEG-4 compressor but the orignal Divx, the one from Circut City. It was to be the DVD replacement. Take DVD, remove some of the cool features and require people to pay per view. Hollywood couldn't stop drooling on themselves over the PPV idea, and the fact that consumers couldn't sell used discs. All the major studios cast in for Divx and most said they were only doing Divx, no DVD.

      Well, an effective consumer boycott was organized. People were informed about how much Divx sucked, and so they didn't buy it. Their VHS tapes were good enough and they stuck with that. In the end, Circut City took a bath to the tune of $100 million and Divx died.

      The same can be done here. DVDs are good enough for most people. Those without HDTVs really couldn't give two shits and even for those with, it's not like DVDs are an eyesore. Yes, I'd love to have more HD content, but I don't cry when I have to watch a DVD.

      So work to convince consumers you know to boycott Blu-ray, they can keep buying DVDs, just no Blu-ray discs or players. Most importantly, convince the videophiles you know. These are the ones who will spend the money on the inital players that will allow the price to lower for the mass market. If the videophile community decides not to buy it, it'll be a major financial hardhsip.

      That's all it will take. The electronics companies are happy to play ball with the media companies when it doesn't affect their bottom line. However if they are producing devices no one will buy, they'll get pissed and stop making them. They are also the ones with the real power, the electronics industry is FAR larger than the entertainment industry.
    • or what about the time we only needed just two cables plugged into our standalone players; power and content.

      Soon we'll need power, content, internet /and/ a copyright-cable. And maybe a dedicated ATM/bank cable too.

      Oh, and special eye-stabber headmounted units just in case we do see un-paid for content.

  • hack hack hack (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:40PM (#13478151)
    Just hack it to not report certain of its hacks

    • Re:hack hack hack (Score:5, Interesting)

      by HermanAB ( 661181 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:59PM (#13478315)
      Just hack it to report everybody else's players and cause Blue Ray to suspend service to all their legitimate clients...

    • Re:hack hack hack (Score:5, Interesting)

      by _KiTA_ ( 241027 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @04:03PM (#13478723) Homepage
      Why is this marked funny? Ok, so it is funny. But in all seriousness, that'e EXACTLY what is going to happen. When people want a Blu-Ray DVD player that they can control rather than the Blu-Ray "admins", they'll just..

      1. Hack it the way they want, including completely disableing the internet protection.
      2. Buy one from a company that doesn't HAVE the dial home stuff. You honestly think there aren't going to be a million asian knockoffs that work just as well but without the built in assholeness?

      Wouldn't it be trivial to packet sniff the DVD player's "All's good, go play the DVD!" packets, then set up an emulator on a LAN and outsmart the player?

      Or if you REALLY wanted to nip this asinine practice in the bud, DDOS the idiots' servers, so suddenly all these people wanting to play their new Blue Ray DVD players get a "Timeout error. Authentication cannot be accessed. Please try again later." error. Enough times of THAT happening and the public will be out for blood -- the company's blood.

  • So.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by TJ_Phazerhacki ( 520002 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:41PM (#13478155) Journal
    What happens when I spoof the server the player is reporting to, and it never actually reports home?

    Verification systems that require any work on the consumer end will never work 100%. It's just too easy to get around.

    And why am I buying the assinine secured player instead of the grey market Chinese one, exactly?

    • All you will need is a dedicated computer, and 100's of hours of time sniffing packets and modifing apache to reassure the player is alright.
      • That's just fine. Because it only has to be done ONCE, and then the information on how to do it will be public knowledge.

        • Re:So.... (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Jozer99 ( 693146 )
          And all everyone else will have to do is get a dedicated server, and tweak your software for 100's of hours to get it to work with their particular player.

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:44PM (#13478175)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • If they did it right, they'd get you (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Tau Zero ( 75868 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @05:13PM (#13479193) Journal
      What happens is that your player can't fetch keys from the server any more, so it stops being able to play encrypted discs.

      If the transactions are encrypted for each individual player, you wouldn't know from traffic analysis exactly what the player was retrieving. It might be pulling back an applet to test whether it was hacked or not. If the proper response does not come back, you never get another disc key ever again.

      This is not to say that the manufacturers aren't likely to screw things up again (or even several more times), but after a few cycles of lockdown and hiring some decent crypto experts they're likely to wind up with something like that.

  • I think this is where this has to be stopped ... under such conditions everyone will be locked down by DRM and will be puppets to server their master, the corporations ... But unless all the consumers band together ... I dont see anything else stopping this :-(

  • Ahhh...more Entertainment industry fun (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cmd.exe ( 912482 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:42PM (#13478161)
    Pick at Microsoft all you want....I think RIAA and the rest of the entertainment industry are about 100 times worse.

  • Wait a moment... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Upaut ( 670171 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:43PM (#13478165) Homepage Journal
    Can someone explaine to me why its not illegal for a company to punish a consumer for tinkering with a product that that consumer had purchased?
    And why, if your going to be tinkering in the first place, you don't just remove the internet connection? Does it serve a purpose? Or is it more like the DirectTV systems, making sure your only getting what you paid for?
    • Seriously. If I buy a car, and add different wheels to it, would I get locked out of my car? If I added an extra air-intake to get more horsepower, would I get locked out?

      This is insane. This DRM stuff has to stop!

      • Re:Wait a moment... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Reziac ( 43301 ) * on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:00PM (#13478320) Homepage Journal
        There are two comments over on the linked article [engadget.com] that struck me as extra-insightful:

        #37:

        This would be the first case I can think of in which an electronics company actually destroyed somebody else's physical property for exercising their rights as a property owner.

        It's true that Sony still retains the copyrights to the software inside the machine, but you're not stealing that software by hacking the machine, just replacing it. It's no different than uninstalling Windows from your PC and installing Linux instead - should Microsoft be able to remotely destroy your PC in such a case?

        #7:

        I guess the concept of ownership is so last century..... Now, instead of owning the equipment that we purchaced from a company, we get to belong to the company that we purchaced the equipment from! YAY! Who needs the CIA anymore when we've got Sony and Toshiba spying on us to make sure we do not violate Copyright laws!

        Whats next? If a someone who has children orders an adult Pay Per View before 11 PM your set top box will notify child services that you may be abusing you children? You may say no way but it could happen the way things are going!

        Between 'em, these two posters say it all.

      • Okay, I don't agree with the MPAA on this one, but you've got one hell of a bad comparison. If you try and make your care go faster or whatever, or want to paint racing stripes on it, it doesn't affect the car manufacturers in anyway. Modifying your Blu-ray player to play region locked discs or pirated discs however, has a (imaginary or real, not the point of this post) negative influence for the people selling movies. This isn't like adding a new motor to the disc drive to make the disc spin faster, its mo

        • Re:Wait a moment... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by ericdano ( 113424 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:31PM (#13478523) Homepage
          "modding it to do something illegal". Really? So the DVD cracks and stuff I have on my Pioneer 109 is illegal? It sure makes the player more stable.

          It's about modifying it. Whether or not you use it for illegal purposes doesn't matter. I could use the car mods for speeding, but I could use the car mods to make it more responsive. It depends on how it's used.

          As for affecting the company.....so if you use non-company parts in your car, are you doing something illegal? So I buy a DVD recorder, and mod it with different firmware. Isn't it the same thing as modding your car to do something that might be construded as "illegal"? Is buying a gun for sport shooting (not that I like guns, I don't) mean that you are going to use it for illegal endeavours?

          I think once you BUY something, you can do whatever you want with it. You can take it apart, whatever. Not that it matters, but people will mod their Blu-Ray players. I'll be one of them.

        • Re:Wait a moment... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Haeleth ( 414428 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @05:20PM (#13479248) Journal
          If you try and make your care go faster or whatever, or want to paint racing stripes on it, it doesn't affect the car manufacturers in anyway.

          Nonsense. If, as a result of a dangerous engine hack, (modded) Fords started to explode on every street corner, you think Ford's share price wouldn't fall?

          Modifying your Blu-ray player to play region locked discs or pirated discs however, has a (imaginary or real, not the point of this post) negative influence for the people selling movies.

          Wait, you're saying that whether the effect is imaginary or real is irrelevant for your point? Whoa. So if Ford's lawyers stood up and said that painting racing stripes on your car would attract the attention of hostile aliens from Saturn, suddenly it would be reasonable for them to object to you painting them, because they had an (imaginary or real, not the point of this post) explanation for why it was bad?

          This isn't like adding a new motor to the disc drive to make the disc spin faster, its modding it to do something illegal.

          Except that everyone I know has removed the region coding from their DVD player, and not one of them owns a single pirated disk. Instead, they own a lot of perfectly legal and legitimate disks that they have purchased at the full retail price. Just from countries they happen not to live in. So, no - in my experience, modding DVD players is not done to do something illegal. The act of modding itself may have been illegal under the DMCA or local equivalents, but that's the only law anyone I know has broken. They certainly haven't stolen any movies...

    • Re:Wait a moment... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by slughead ( 592713 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:02PM (#13478341) Homepage Journal
      Can someone explaine to me why its not illegal for a company to punish a consumer for tinkering with a product that that consumer had purchased?

      Have you ever heard of a Homeowner's Association?

      • That's a little different (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @04:41PM (#13478940)
        A HOA isn't a company telling consumers what to do, it's owners voting on what to do. When you are in a neighbourhood with an HOA, you have a vote by owning a house. It's a fairly powerful vote, too, as there usually aren't many houses in a given HOA. Where I live, it's a 1/54th vote. Anything and everything about the contract can be changed by vote, including dissolving the HOA. If you have a problem with the way things are being run, it's easy to talk to the leaders, they are your neighbours. It's also easy to go around and try to rally people to vote how you want, also your neighbours.

        The difference here is that consumers have no vote, no control. They are told "Here is how it is and there's nothing you can do." They won't give you your money back for your disabled unit, and since it's disabled you can't sell it, you have no recourse.

        I'm not a huge HOA fan, but they really are different. If I have a complaint with my HOA, it's usually not that hard to come to a compramise. If I have a complaint with Sony, they'll tell me to pack sand.

    • Re:Wait a moment... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sd_diamond ( 839492 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:13PM (#13478403) Homepage

      Can someone explaine to me why its not illegal for a company to punish a consumer for tinkering with a product that that consumer had purchased?

      You've touched on what may be the most ominous thing about this. We're living in the age of the EULA, and it looks like they're trying to set a precedent for extending that model ("You're not purchasing it, you're paying for the right to use it as long as we feel like letting you") from software to hardware.

      "Under the terms of this License Agreement, Ford Motor Co. may revoke your right to drive this automobile if you buy parts or seek service from any person or entity not officially licensed by Ford to provide such parts or services..."

      It's a Brave New World...

      • "Under the terms of this License Agreement, Ford Motor Co. may revoke your right to drive this automobile if you buy parts or seek service from any person or entity not officially licensed by Ford to provide such parts or services..."

        This is nothing new. Nor, for that matter, is it new for the entertainment industry to seek control not only over the content of the media but also the physical equipment upon which the media was played.

        Along the Camden, New Jersey riverfront once strode a mighty giant: T

    • Re:Wait a moment... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by mcc ( 14761 ) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:25PM (#13478490) Homepage
      Can someone explaine to me why its not illegal for a company to punish a consumer for tinkering with a product that that consumer had purchased?

      Because the companies are the ones who buy the laws, not the consumers.

      This is why it is, in fact, illegal for the consumer to tinker with the product that that consumer has purchased. [copyright.gov] (So long as you aren't a believer in that whole "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law" thing.)

      The companies can do things like write a law which completely alters the fundamental balance of copyright law, and pass it directly to Jesse Helms who drops it into congress where it passes unanimously on a voice vote because not one single member of congress has read it. The consumers... well, maybe if they write enough letters and make enough noise for enough months they can convince a congressman to give a speech in their favor, which will be written into the congressional record and then forgotten about. If the same group makes enough noise for over a decade maybe a law on the subject they've been agitating about will be put up for debate, though God knows what it will look like by the time it gets through committee.

      I mean, okay, in theory the consumers are the ones 'buying' the laws, because the consumers are the ones who vote. However
      1. the consumers by and large don't vote
      2. the ones that do vote don't seem particularly interested in informing themselves about the actions of their elected representatives, or holding them accountable for those actions-- of course at some point this might have something to do with the fact that whether they are considered to be "left" or "right", all the news sources the average consumer finds out about the actions of their government from have connections to the large media companies that "DRM" is being invented for the benefit of
      3. the "consumers" have been so busy bickering about abortion for the last 15 years that there's pretty much no room left in the national debate for trivialities like running the government

  • emulate the player with other hardware (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rheotaxis ( 528103 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:44PM (#13478173) Homepage
    Is it legal to program a Linux server to emulate the player, then respond to any unrequested IP packets from the manufacture with the II'm hacked' message whatever it is? Who owns/controls/deterimine what is legally acceptable hand-shaking after all?

  • They need to look into the history of Divx (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ... before the term was co-opted.

    Any tethered, DRM-laden DVD player will be about as successful in the marketplace as a 220-volt rubber duck.

    Do they just not care if they sell any of these, or what?
  • Do they really wanna start this war? In the end, people they're paying good money to are going to be fighting against a relatively big army of tinkerers who have no problem spending all their free time defeating crap like this. Plenty of EEs need senior projects.
    • And they'll just take a couple of those tinkerers to court, destroy their lives and careers, and leave their decapitated heads on the end of a pike to either side of the doors to the MPAA headquarters in their eternal quest to subvert some of civilization's most fundamental concepts, those of property and ownership. What purpose that would serve in terms of preventing the circumvention of their copy protection systems I don't know ... but that's what they will do. And in the end, when all is said and done a

  • Region Coding = Irony (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sockonafish ( 228678 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:46PM (#13478186)
    It's very ironic to me that one of the industries that benefits most from globalization makes such a concerted and futile effort to hamper trade in their own global market.

    As a person keen on foreign films, I know I won't be buying a Blu-Ray that can't be made region-free. If no such player exists, I'll just end up pirating films released exclusively on Blu-Ray.
    • Nah, it's not ironic, just $'s... region coding is designed to enable Hollywood to sell DVD's for big bucks and first in rich companies and cheaper and later in poorer countries. That way they can maximize their profits from globalization.

      Frankly I think they see most of the world market (e.g., China) as a burden rather than a benefit. Especially given the piracy which originates from that front...

      As for this Blu-Ray madness, I think it's more a reflection of the corporate schizophrenia of Sony --- you know

  • Looks like I won't be getting a Blu-ray.

  • It appears that it is time for "DVD" Jon Johansen to prove that he deserves the title he has been granted by all of geekdom.
  • And they actually think they will be able to sell a device that not only requires full time network access (limits the potential customers) and can be disabled remotely (very good hacker potential here!)?

    I know that the vast majority of people are not much more than cattle, but when they are asked to fork over several hundred dollars if not more for an entertainment device that they can do with out but have expensive restrictions built in most will recognize a bad deal for what it is.

    If by some amazing
  • Do not buy Blue-Ray hardware from the following:

    Sony
    Matsushita
    Samsung
    Philips
    Dell
    Hewlett-Packard
    Apple
    Hitachi
  • This reminds me a lot of the failed DivX format that would 'phone home'.

    The original Reuters article is pretty light on details though. What happens if you don't have an internet connction? And where will these players be supposedly 'reporting' to? Not to mention who is going to be paying for this whole infrastructure of 'player monitoring'? This is one step away from becoming a 'service' rather than just a piece of hardware.

    The Blu-Ray folks should remember why DivX failed in the first place.
  • Wow, yet another reason not to buy into that technology. They really seem not to have learned the right lessons from DVD... Now, they are already fighting over the next-gen format _before_ any disks or players even hit the market, and instead of dropping their ridiculous "it's called copy protection, but actually hurts only legitimate users" schemes, they introduce more of them.

    Dog, I'm happy I'm still managing fine with CD-RWs...

  • History... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Viceice ( 462967 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:54PM (#13478266)
    Did NOBODY learn from Betamax? When will the industry learn that the ONLY thing DRM ensures is that the next high density optical disc standard will be whatever China turns out?

    Wait a min.. that might be a GOOD thing.
    • Betamax had no restrictions, it just lost in the market.

      I think you're talking about DIVX (the disk/player format promoted by Circuit City -- not the codec).

  • Divx players ring a bell? I say it's DOA. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by plasmacutter ( 901737 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:55PM (#13478281)
    They tried this "internet verification" crap with divx players too. Everyone smelled the tremendous stench of "ripoff" and told the salesmen where to stick it. Anything involving internet connection for "verification" engenders some very strong language which quite frankly I don't want to put into slashdot, but even the average consumer will be saying "what the hell, NO!"
  • This seems to be the wrong direction to fight piracy. Region unlocking is something which a lot of users do (especially on laptops, etc) even non tech savvy users. (I have unlocked many a DVD player... fortunately I don't have a DMCA to deal with -yet- where I'm located)

    If users can't get around rediculous, asine and frivolous DRM which everyone is used to ignoring like Region Coding (which in itself is a bad idea for the same reason as this... just not to the same extent) then they are just going to go a

  • Regional Coding (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MrSteveSD ( 801820 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:56PM (#13478293)
    I think that the concept of Regional Coding is largely dead now anyway since they tend to release everything at the same time to avoid piracy. Regional Coding was really a violation of WTO rules anyway.

    I don't like the idea of hardware that reports back to base. If we go in that direction our TVs will report us when we channel flip to avoid commercials.

    YOUR TV HAS BEEN DISABLED. SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS THEFT!

    • Re:Regional Coding (Score:5, Informative)

      by Paul Bristow ( 118584 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:12PM (#13478401) Homepage
      If we go in that direction our TVs will report us when we channel flip to avoid commercials.

      Umm, you do realise that many Digital TV services and ALL IPTV services do this already, right?

  • Old news, incidentally (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mcc ( 14761 ) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:58PM (#13478298) Homepage
    Slashdot already ran a story on this exact subject, and that contained much more information [slashdot.org]-- it appears that all this new story is is that at some point this week Reuters referenced the announcement from last month, and engadget, which hadn't heard about it the first time, ran it as a new story.

    It's worth noting that at the time the last story was run, at least one slashdotter was disputing its veracity [slashdot.org], but I don't know how much credence you can put in that.

  • Hi-Def XviD (Score:4, Insightful)

    by HugePedlar ( 900427 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @02:58PM (#13478304) Homepage
    I've just bought an XviD-capable DVD player for my TV. I can now watch DVD-quality movies that fit onto a standard 700MB CD-ROM, courtesy of BitTorrent.

    AFAIK, Blu-Ray and its equivalent (HD-DVD or whatever) are being developed in order to provide Hi-Definition video and/or longer video per disc.

    Why would I want Blu-Ray? As soon as Hi-Def becomes standard (or even before), it'll be available via BitTorrent compressed to less than the size of a standard DVD at HD quality. I can then watch Hi-Def films on my existing hardware.

    So if this hack-proof protection is designed to foil copyright infringers, it's going to fail. Copyright infringers will simply use their existing hardware to view Hi-Def on standard DVDs on standard XviD players. Why would we criminals buy Blu-Ray in the first place?
  • Giving a company the power to decide if your paid for device goes *poof* one day is bad.

    The first mistake they make, expect a suit.

    Also, what about people that dont have internet, i guess they are just out of luck and cant watch movies at some point if blu-ray becomes 'the standard'? ..

    and no i didnt RTFA.. it wouldnt load.
  • The excerpt is taken from the bottom of this Reuters article [reuters.com] from Sept. 2, 2005.

  • Of all the stupid things (Score:5, Interesting)

    by FerretFrottage ( 714136 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:03PM (#13478348)
    Heck, if something in my house that needs to be plugged in doesn't have a missing screw, then I automatically know it's broken.....I have to get inside and give it "more power". My wife insists that certain "toys" of hers are off-limits, but little does she know what 9 volts can do compared to 1.5.

    If I open something up and tinker with it, then fine, I void the warranty. But for companies to think they have the right to monitor what we do with their products to the point that they can deploy countermeasures just has to be stopped.

    I think it's time for www.{stop|avoid|donotbuy|FU}blu-ray.com sites to start popping up. As previous posted stated, hopefully this will go the way of divx (the old crippled DVD players divx that is).

    Now of course this would have been a nice way to kill off the floppy drive...have it phone home when it detects user-modified DSHD.

    • Re:Of all the stupid things (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:23PM (#13478470)
      My wife insists that certain "toys" of hers are off-limits, but little does she know what 9 volts can do compared to 1.5.

      Until this "toy" shorts and you have to bury your wife in a Y-shaped coffin.
  • Refuse to use Blu-ray if they plan on using draconian methods. the competing format is cheaper, and hopefully its custodians will not be as large of assholes.
  • is go to, for example, the Sony store when they get their first shipment and ask the salespeople to explain how this works, and then say "so you mean I can't tinker with it even if I own it?" and then laugh as loudly as possible while leaving the store.
  • ... will be the internet reporting system.

  • Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Have Blue ( 616 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:10PM (#13478395) Homepage
    Can someone explain why I would have hooked my Blu-Ray player up to the Internet in the first place?

    • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)

      by stwrtpj ( 518864 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:41PM (#13478606) Journal
      We've been through this before. This is not the first time this has shown up on Slashdot. Several times before this particular piece of misinformation gets out claiming that the next generation of DVD players will require internet hookup. Each time the companies involved categorically state that NO internet hookup will be required for stand-alone play.

      Now, what MIGHT happen is that the new players will allow DVDs to run code that checks for modified players and refuse to allow themselves to be played if it finds such a modification. That is more what we need to be concerned about.

    • Re:Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by slashname3 ( 739398 )
      Because if you buy one of these systems you won't be able to play a DVD unless it can communicate with the RIAAs servers and validate your DVD. This means that when you cable goes out along with your Internet access you won't be able to pop a DVD into your player to watch a movie until the cable gets fixed.

      This brings up a bigger issue, how are they going to enforce this on portable DVD players? Kind of hard to get network access to validate your DVDs when you are on the road or on an airplane.

      This wi

      • Re:Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by mexter2005 ( 854056 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @04:10PM (#13478758)
        I don't think network access will be the way it is done. Too easy to mod a player and have it check some other server, or just bypass the check completely.

        IMO, they will build the check directly into the DVD, which can be upgraded each time they release a new movie.

    • Re:Huh? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Lazarian ( 906722 )
      Can someone explain why I would have hooked my Blu-Ray player up to the Internet in the first place?

      Maybe you wouldn't have to. You'd only have to plug it in to the power outlet...

      But seeing how there is major development happening in turning AC power grids into broadband delivery systems as well, it'd be the same thing.

      Hell - it's probably going to get to the point of your microwave reporting to a server what brand of RFID tagged popcorn your having at 8:41 PM, Monday.

      I wonder if there would be a market fo

  • Same old Sony Story (Score:3, Insightful)

    by digid ( 259751 ) * on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:16PM (#13478432)
    4 Years ago I bought a Sony Clie that still rivals the quality, resolution, of todays PDAs. The problem I had with it was the lack of hacks for it because of how locked down they made it. They didn't make it easy to be hacked and all the software for it was proprietary. They didn't release an SDK or anything. People want to hack their toys. The PSP is hackable and consumers find this kind of intriguing. Although Sony is fighting to lock the consumer out of doing this. I've observed that if people can do more with their toy than what is intended by the manufacturer this usually drives sales. Sony still hasn't figured this out and is setting themselves up to lose the media format war just as how they lost out keeping up in the PDA market(The completely stopped manufacturing their whole PDA line)

  • Do you still respect the laws? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DroopyStonx ( 683090 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:28PM (#13478509)
    Seeing as how they're getting away with this shit, do you people still feel as though we should obey and respect the laws designed to protect them?

    I don't.

    See, I read stories like this, and regardless how many people tell me I'm wrong, I honestly do feel justification for all the movies I download.

    I feel no pity for them. They've done this to themselves, and apparently they haven't learned their lesson.

    If they can fuck us, then there's absolutely no reason for us to fuck them harder (ooh dirty).

    Just stop buying the DVDs and download them instead. Do your part and fight back since none of us have billions to persuade lawmakers with.

  • Helping the Black/Grey Market (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Danathar ( 267989 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:28PM (#13478511) Journal
    PC's with DRM, DVD players with DRM....software that gets automatically turned off if you unscrew the case..ect..

    Don't the Major players understand that they are creating a market for for the off-brand Korean/Chinese/Asian manufacturers to sell consumer electronics without all this crap?

    Unless the U.S. starts seriously inderdicting consumer electronics that don't meet RIAA/MPAA standards people ARE going to buy these things via mailorder from overseas.

    The Chinese already don't respect copyright OR patents. What makes them think they will not see this as an opportunity to make money and jump into the market? They already make practically ALL of the components that go into the "Branded" versions that will go to the U.S. It's gunna be trivial for them to duplicate (in quality) a Blue-Ray DVD player without all the DRM crap on it.

  • Virii to the rescue! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Pig Hogger ( 10379 ) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (reggoh.gip)> on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:29PM (#13478512) Journal
    Viruses could be expected to come to the rescue. Like one which screws-up the drive so it has to be sent back for warrantee repair. When manufacturers will be swamped with "defective" drives, they will soon throw the towel, either by refusing to fix them (and then pissing-off the customers with that technology) or simply no longer making remote-disablable drives.

  • Will there be any early adopters? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Walker ( 96239 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:40PM (#13478594)
    This is a new technology. The mainstream users won't pick it up until there is enough content product and there is a compelling reason to abandon their current DVD players. For that to happen, the product needs a sufficient number of early adopters. But early adopters are technically savy and won't put up with this type of stuff. So will this product ever take off if they do this?

  • support nightmare for the hardware manufacter. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by doctor_no ( 214917 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:50PM (#13478660)
    While Blu-ray association may provide this as a security option to the Studios to get them aboard the format. Since all this talk about self-destructive players and punishing pirates must be the MPAAs wet dream. However, its a support nightmare for the hardware manufacter. Most hardware manufacters don't directly profit from media content (other than the one's like Sony who own studios), most will likely forgo this feature or water it down due to the flood of technical support calls from enraged owners of their product. With the emergence of cheap Chinese and Taiwanese brands profits from hardware themselves is incredibly small, In reality, I doubt manufacters are willing to deal with potential law-suits, tech-support issues, and angry retailers that get returned players that people tried to hack.

  • It's worse than Russia! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Makito ( 518963 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @03:57PM (#13478698)
    In Russia you own the DVD player; In United States, DVD player owns you....

  • Guess I'll stick with plain old DVD, then (Score:4, Interesting)

    by payndz ( 589033 ) on Sunday September 04, 2005 @04:39PM (#13478917)
    Because I decide what hardware I pay money for gets connected up to what in my home, not some corporation. 'To use a Blu-Ray player, you must have it connected to a phone/Ethernet socket.' You know what? Fuck that!

    It's exactly this kind of paranoid, 'the consumers are our enemy trying to rip us off' thinking that is going to lead to the major electronics corporations losing very large amounts of money for the next several years. And I have no sympathy. They want us to buy new hardware because DVD players have become so cheap they don't really offer much opportunity for profit. Okay, but what reasons are they giving people to want to buy them?

    "They have high-definition picture quality!"
    So what? 99% of people don't have HD TV, and aren't likely to for at least 5 years, maybe 10, unless HD TV undergoes the same kind of astronomical price-drop that we saw with DVD players. So no advantage there.

    "Er, you'll be able to get the definitive versions of your favourite movies!"
    So the Original, Special Edition, Director's Cut and Ultimate versions that we've been buying for the past seven or eight years are just chopped liver?

    "Oh, um, shit... I know! If you don't buy our pirate-proof new versions of movies you already own on boring old DVD, the terrorists will win!"
    And since 9 out of 10 people wouldn't even think to buy pirate copies of DVDs in the first place, they get offended at being accused of being criminals. (And then some of them will think, 'Wait, I can get pirate DVDs? Where?')

    Considering the dismal state of cinema at the moment, there's no 'killer app' for BR/HD-DVD. Are millions of people really going to drop the best part of a grand just on a player to watch the new King Kong in HD? I already have all of my favourite movies of all time on DVD. I have no intention of buying some expensive, DRM-crippled, home-phoning piece of kit that won't even offer better image quality without me shelling out thousands of pounds on a new HD TV so that I can watch them again with a sharper picture.

    For most people, DVD is 'good enough', and that's how the corporations have made a rod for their own backs. It's the same reason why DVD-A and SACD failed miserably to replace CD. The increase in quality is negligible when weighed against the increase in price. It's not like VHS vs DVD, where all the failings of the old medium (low quality picture, tedious FF and REW, dropout over time, etc) instantly became obvious the first time you watched a DVD. With DVD vs BR/HD-DVD, the only way to tell any difference is to spend the price of a car on a new HD TV set. This may come as a surprise to the electronics companies, but very few people are willing to do that!

    Also, slowly but surely, even Joe Public is starting to realise that obtrusive DRM that's there entirely for the studio's benefit is not necessarily a good thing. It might be something as simple as frustration when the tracks he got from Napster don't work on his iPod now, but when he wonders, "Hey, why the hell does my new DVD player need to be connected to the phone line to work? What's that all about? Is it going to add to my bill? What if someone tries to phone when I'm watching a movie?" as well...

    And something that the studios don't seem to have considered - right now, they're making a huge amount of unexpected profit from releasing old TV shows on DVD. One problem: they won't be able to do the same on BR/HD, where the selling point is the better picture quality. Most of these shows were edited on video, so bar minor sprucing-up, that's as good as the picture will ever get. Sure, being able to put a whole season of Star Trek or Buffy or whatever on a single disc is convenient... but then trying to charge between 50 and 100 dollars/pounds/euros for just one disc (that looks no better than the DVD version) doesn't look like very good value to the punter, does it?

  • SHORT /. MEMORY (Score:3, Informative)

    by mattr ( 78516 ) <mattr&telebody,com> on Monday September 05, 2005 @04:13AM (#13481884) Homepage Journal
    Okay. A slashdot article on the blu-ray spec posted at least a month ago (2 or three dvd-related threads ago) had a link to the spec, a pdf. A 15 minute skim of the paper scared me and I posted about it, then reiterated it in the last 2 related threads. Does anybody read the technical material? It's like /. is just a bunch of 12-year old wankers who don't even like programming or studying that much.

    The encryption system uses a broad tree of keys and subkeys so that the player can disable an entire subset of media by denying decryption functionality for parts of the tree.

    The player can be Internet connected but does not have to be. However the spec IIRC does allow executable code or related commands in part of the DVD, which seems to be protected with a different key.

    The player is proposed to have a wireless LAN adapter which may be sold separately, presumably this would simultaneously serve media to clients in your home while providing a keyring and monitor to police usage across the LAN.

    The spec as proposed appears to guarantee that there will be events from time to time triggered by media or net connection (or even from media or programs on another pc on the LAN) causing portions of the key tree to be disabled, enabled, or updated. The ultimate thermonuclear threat on this platform is to disable the entire tree which may either render the device unusable completely, or may just let you use DVDs that are unprotected (if any exist in that format).

    It sounds like each player will have a unique ID as well. While disablings of keys may not discriminate between IDs in the beginning, it is entirely possible that hacking your player could even end up in your being blacklisted in some way, or "infecting" your entire network with commands destroying functionality.

    Personally I despise this introduction of military-grade security into my home by big entertainment companies and will boycott and fight against this any way I can. I already do not buy CDs or DVDs outright and do not feel I suffer unduly. This initiative is sure to make your home a battleground for all kinds of cyberwarfare that make you nostalgic in 10 years for the cute and relatively limited and harmless spyware and spam threats of today.

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