Slashdot Log In
AOL Fined for Making it Hard to Cancel Service
Posted by
samzenpus
on Wed Aug 24, 2005 07:05 PM
from the can't-stop-using dept.
from the can't-stop-using dept.
andy1307 writes "CNET is carrying an article about a settlement between AOL and New York State that includes AOL paying a $1.25 million fine and agreeing to reform its customer service procedures. The agreement stems from consumers' complaints that AOL customer service representatives would either ignore requests, or make it unduly difficult, to cancel their service, according to a statement from Attorney General Eliot Spitzer. The policy probaby had something to do with rapidly declining customer numbers at AOL as more Americans switch to broadband."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
I can't imagine... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I can't imagine... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:I can't imagine... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
The Tragic History of "me too!!!!" (Score:5, Informative)
Any such question would be followed up by no less then 6 more requests of 'ME TOO!!!!". If they found your email address they would send you mail asking for advice about Pr0n or whatever. Mostly they would ask if you were a young boy or girl.
Parent
Re:The Tragic History of "me too!!!!" (Score:5, Funny)
Now it's the whole internet.
Parent
Re:The Tragic History of "me too!!!!" (Score:5, Interesting)
It was a rather dark day, but then again, we had a lot of fun in alt.aol-sucks and other groups telling AOLers (like those you mentioned, not the mature people) that we knew where they lived.
All we had to do was mention the city (by looking at the post headers) and threaten to give out their address and phone number. It scared the crap out of those 'I'm calling AOL because you're violating the AOL Terms Of Service!' types. We'd often get panicked 'IM SRY PLEZE DONT' post/email replies.
And, back to the 'AOL Fine' subject, even back then AOL was making it extremely difficult to stop the billing. Many people were getting screwed because direct withdrawals & CC charges would not stop.
It took 11 years until something was finally done about it. Even back then, it often took a lot to cancel charges and we'd post information similar to what's below (from the FAQ) in reply to people who couldn't get AOL to cancel their accounts:
http://anti-aol.org/faqs/aas/faq1.html [anti-aol.org]
" America Online
8619 Westwood Center Drive
Vienna, VA 22182-2285
Send a certified letter with a return receipt. This will protect you in the event that AOL decides to continue billing you, as you'll have proof of when you canceled and proof that your letter was received by AOL.
E-mail: AOL used to offer the "cancel online" function at Keyword: Cancel, but supposedly hasn't for some time now. And even when they did offer this service, it didn't always work. The moral: don't count on e-mail to close an account.
Get TOSsed: Be enough of a jerk on AOL and they'll cancel you!
Parent
Re:I can't imagine... (Score:5, Insightful)
One day they sent a crew through the office to randomly pick people from tech-support and move them into what they call the "Cancel/Save Queue" because so many people were calling to cancel because they couldn't get through. I refused and was "forced to resign".
The point of this is the "Cancel/Save Queue" part. The only people that have authority to actually cancel someones account are those people, and their sole job is to talk you out of it. It *is* hard. They are told they have authority to do whatever it takes to keep you from canceling free months extra whatever else, webcam deal going on? How about a webcam then? Anything they can do to keep you even if your service is broken they will do, and they are told to not take no for an answer.
The whole reason I "resigned" (read: fired without unemployment benefits) was because I couldn't stand them and couldn't stomach the idea of kissing peoples ass when AOL was clearly at fault.
Parent
Re:I can't imagine... (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, really? Because I used to sit in on plenty of meetings and see plenty of reports with Matt Korn, Gerry, and everyone else who spent all day, every day getting Sprint, ANS, etc. to buy and install hundreds of thousands of modems that they knew would be useless in five years. Which led Sprint, ANS, etc. to bang down the doors of the hardware manufacturers until they cranked up their assembly lines, and then to overload the colo's with modems until Verizon, et al. were forced to build new central offices to handle the peak demand, which of course was now radically different from the peak-to-installed-base ratio that had worked to model telephone usage for the past 100 years. Thus resulting in slow dial tones for everyone, AOL user or not, until the entire national telephone infrastructure caught up to the demand. And then we could put in the modems.
So, yeah, that was my vantage point. I saw the numbers and heard it from the horse's mouth. Tell me, from your cube in, where, Ogden, Tucson, how did you "know for a fact" was was going on back in Dulles, and in colos around the country? I started in tech support myself, and even then, in the same building as the developers, there was plenty of "floor lore" - things we knew that simply had no basis in fact. We "knew for a fact" that Q-Link would load faster if you wrapped the drive in tinfoil. So when you say "know for a fact", I'm curious how you think you know it. And, honestly, refusing to help out by working on an overloaded phone queue (out of some principle you don't quite enunciate) doesn't make you look like the most cooperative, in-the-loop kinda guy. In my day, when one queue was overloaded, we all helped out, even if it meant password resets. Were you guys too good for that?
Yes, AOL made a hell of a lot of mistakes in those days, but lying to the public about our infrastructure was not one of them. If you're gonna accuse my buds of fabrication, you're gonna have to give some facts, and you're gonna want to sign a name.
Jay "The Mail Guy" Levitt
AOL Employee, 1989-2001
Parent
Re:I can't imagine... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:I can't imagine... (Score:4, Interesting)
The reason I quit was not because I didn't want to help, it was because I wanted to work in technology, this wasn't a "ok we're going to transfer calls from the cancel/save to you for awhile" which did happen on occasion for other queues, that was to be my new permanent posistion.
As for MY vantage point I was tired of getting yelled at. In those days you answered the phone to get screamed at. Customers were LUCKY to have an hour of hold time on the phone. I can't tell you how many times we answered the phones to people snoring because they fell asleep. We'd try and try and try to wake them up (typically it was futile) and that happened several times a day. I can see you are loyal to them but I wasn't. It was a means to an end. Get the college credit for taking AOL's training course work in the support field for a bit and jet. As soon as they said my new posistion was going to be cancel/save, I was gone. There were lots of other crappy non-tech jobs in Ogden.
Parent
CDs (Score:4, Funny)
Re:CDs (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Tesla Coil Re:CDs (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:CDs (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
*boggle* (Score:5, Insightful)
If they would put Firefox, OpenOffice, and other nifty open source software in the extra space on those CDs, people would keep them around instead of throwing them in the trash.
1) Why would AOL distribute apps that they don't control or support?
2) Those CDs would quickly become dated as new versions are released. Geeks wouldn't keep them around because they can generally download what they need.
3) Not to stereotype, but do you think the typical user who is interested in AOL dial-up service is also going to be interested in trying new/different open source apps?
4) Would this typical AOL user be remotely interested in the philospohical arguments behind F/OSS or even care that those arguments exist?
Oddly enough, there are situations where F/OSS is not the answer. People that try to push F/OSS where it doesn't belong are at best wasting their (and others') time; at worst they are being counterproductive and hindering F/OSS adoption with their zealotry.
Parent
Re:CDs (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
I found it VERY easy to cancel service (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I found it VERY easy to cancel service (Score:5, Interesting)
About 2 weeks after my complaint, I got a very frantic, angry phone call from someone who said he was a lawyer representing AOL and I had caused them much grief with my "false" complaints. Bottom line, I never got another bill from them, and got two follow-up letters from the FCC asking me if AOL resolved my complaints. Sometimes the FCC works !
Parent
Re:I found it VERY easy to cancel service (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, it always works. It's just that sometimes that's the problem.
Parent
I actually didn't have too many issues cancelling (Score:5, Interesting)
They asked me why I wanted to cancel and I said their web browser was bloated and slow, and I preferred Firefox. They said I could minimize the AOL app and run IE if I wanted (I pointed out this didn't change the fact I was running a bloated CPU hogging program on my machine) then I said I also couldn't use my own mail program (this is before they allowed the IMAP access, so I couldn't send outgoing mail from my other email accounts since there was no outgoing SMTP server).
"So you want to use Outlook Express for your email?"
"No, actually I use Mozilla Thunderbird."
"What?"
"Mozilla Thunderbird," I said more slowly.
"Okay" the rep said "I have no idea what you're talking about." [little giggle]
"Perhaps we should skip this little interview then?" I answered coldly.
Bing. Got it cancelled immediately.
Now removing AOL, that was the hard part. I wanted to do it immediately, because they have that great EULA clause that if you sign on to AOL anytime after you cancel (which isn't hard when AOL makes itself the default everything in Windows), you're consenting to the reactivation of your service.
I had both versions 7 and 9 installed (for some reason the v9 "updater" just installed a second copy). My hard drive must have cranked away for over 45 minutes while the uninstaller ran. But it was still in the registry somewhere. For months after that, besides the IE 6 "provided by AOL" I would see my old screenname pop up in the most unlikely places when doing filling out web forms or on AOL/Netscape pages.
Parent
It's not AOL's fault (Score:5, Funny)
try {
int i = iRevenue / iNumExistingCustomers;
} catch (...) {}
Scott Adams Wins Again (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Scott Adams Wins Again (Score:5, Informative)
If a custommer is indeed screwed by AOL, take them to small claims court and get your 1500 bucks out of them, problem solved and I have some money to pay for my inconvienience.
Yes, because big companies pay attention when a few dozen people sue them in small claims court. Face it, refusing to terminate service is illegal, or should be.
Parent
Re:Scott Adams Wins Again (Score:3, Insightful)
The threat of those 'taxes' (to use your incorrect politically-charged terminolgy) stops the weasels, and anyone else who wants to have the same lame business plan.
This country absolutely, undeniably needs another 49 or so like him. Examples like this [cnn.com], and this [oreillynet.com],and this [forbes.com] and this [state.ny.us] should clue you in.
I never REALLY wanted to cancel... (Score:5, Interesting)
Nothing but problems with AOL (Score:5, Informative)
Count me among the hoardes that hate AOL. I have horror stories.
This article deals with one of them. I know a lot of people who have a hard time cancelling their service with AOL. My dad tried cancelling the service three or four times and ended up sending them a certified letter to get them to stop bugging him.
Another issue I have with AOL is that AOL digs roots very deeply into your computer. I don't know if this is still true since I haven't seen anyone using the service in a while, but it used to do stuff like replace your built-in dial-up networking functionality with its own, and even replacing various parts of the TCP/IP software and system files with its own. Uninstall? Useless. I've completely reinstalled many people's computers just to get AOL off of them. It's ironic that now their ads pitch the service as a way of protecting people from stuff that screws up their computer.
I've also dealt a lot with "This thing isn't working" complaints. People who can't get through, people who do get through but only very slowly, people whose other software starts experiencing mysterious problems, and so on ad nauseum.
There's a reason that AO "Hell" has such a bad reputation, and whenever anyone I know says, "America Online has a good deal on Internet service; I think I'll sign up," I always tell them, "I highly recommend against that, and no offense, but if you do, don't call me to come fix your computer."
The company I work for had a brief co-branding partnership with AOL, and as a result, all employees were offered a free year of AOL service. I work in the IT department, and almost everyone I know turned it down because the service, even free, just wasn't worth it. Actually, come to think of it, one guy I worked with gave his account to his parents and then spent the next year fixing their computer...
And speaking of AOL's declining membership and miserable service, I guess Time Warner has to be feeling a little bit better about their decision [cnn.com] to drop AOL from its name. Ooh, cheap shot.
Meanwhile, if you're experiencing problems cancelling AOL, try one suggestion [nyud.net] I found: call the phone number on your credit card statement.
Re:Nothing but problems with AOL (Score:5, Interesting)
I am not an AOL fan, but to be fair to them, I will say that when I cancled my cousins AOL and he got a cable modem, the AOL software was uninstalled without a problem. There was no problem with the cable modem working.
AOL != Real Media and their deceptive practices.
It is one thing to lie to people, and another thing to be unresponsive. AOL's problems are not that they lie so much as they drag their feet. It is a customer service problem, not a software problem.
Now if they could only get something better than 5k/sec on their dial-up, I don't think people would be running away like crazy. And with AOL charging $20+ a month, and Verizon just announced they are offering DSL for $15 a month, it does not take a genius to figure out what the better deal is.
Even back when AOL was the biggest ISP, many people I knew picked companies like Juno because they charged half as much and ran just as quick.
I never could figure out why AOL became such a large company. They charged more than anyone else. They were not the best or the fastest. All they did was package in an IM. But anyone can download Yahoo IM or something else. Did AOL become so huge because they were the only company that handed out free CD's at every computer store?
Parent
I can't believe AOL got fined for this (Score:5, Funny)
RIP, Doug Adams
Re:I can't believe AOL got fined for this (Score:5, Funny)
Eat their brains, and the like. Maybe even sign them up for AOL, just so they know what I'm going through.
Parent
HA! (Score:3, Informative)
Serves the bastards right...about 10 years ago, my GF at the time had AOL and cancelled...they just kept debiting her checking account, regardles of the flood of angry emails, snail mail letters, and phone calls she loosed upon them. In the end, she had to talk to the bank and persuade them to stop paying out to AOL. We could have stopped the abuse more easily by simply closing out the account, but she flatly refused to do that, on general principles (she was a very stubborn woman).
AOL analysis (Score:5, Insightful)
Are there any ethics in buisness, or is it just about the money?
I tried to cancel my cousins service over a year ago. I was on hold for over half an hour. I hung up and called back, but this time selected "new customer" and I had a person on the phone right away.
Why should a new customer get a person on the phone right away, and someone who wants to cancel service must wait a long time?
Maybe one good first law is to say "the time wait for an existing customer must be less than the time wait for a new customer". That would gaurentee that customers can cancel without having to wait and wait and wait for someone to anwser their call.
A good second law should be that a customer can dispute any service and does not have to pay for that month. If a customer disputes too many months, the service provider can drop them. But that might stop the bad service. If AOL has an outage, or dial numbers are busy, then the person should have the ability to dispute that days charge and not pay. This should be very easy to do, and not require more than 1 minutes time of the consumer.
Re:AOL analysis (Score:4, Funny)
It's "losing". LOSING. You know, as in the word "lose". As in "to not win". What's wrong with everyone? Is this word so hard to spell?
Grrrrr.
Parent
Re:AOL analysis (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Got off today (Score:5, Interesting)
So I told her to say she was going into hospice. She saw it as a game, so she even timed it. It took 1:30 min with the operator, who talked about how sorry she was for her.
That's how you do it. AOL only lets you go if you have a terminal condition.
Re:Got off today (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Got off today (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Got off today (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Not quite (Score:4, Funny)
I imagine it had more to do with the hundreds of thousands of obnoxious free ipod chasers signing up for accounts and then cancelling them.
Eliot Spitzer for President (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but (Score:5, Insightful)
And who gets the fine? Not likely the consumers that had the problems to start with.
Finally (Score:5, Interesting)
NO! MY AMMO! (Score:5, Funny)
This has been going on for over 10 years (Score:3, Interesting)
What I want to know... (Score:3, Funny)
Probably redundant, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, crap. AOL has always been difficult to escape. Years ago they told my company that their service--which could be ordered over the phone--had to be canceled in writing. After we sent them a letter canceling the service, they continued billing the credit card account for several months.
BS alert (Score:4, Insightful)
I beg to differ. When big companies fall off the pinnacle, there's a tendency to blame some outside force, like broadband.
The truth is customers left because they didn't find any value in AOL's services, evidenced by the rapid non-adoption of AOL's broadband service. My mom had AOL for years, she switched because of all the silly ads she had to sit through.
AOL fell down because they were no longer relevant to their market. Same thing will happen to Microsoft, Intel and Dell. Any big company that starts treating their customers like a revenue stream. It'll take longer, but it'll happen.
The really strange thing is the people who ran AOL into the ground will all walk away with big, fat bonus checks and option buy outs. Just like in the Bush administration: Failure is not a problem.
Verizon Wireless (Score:4, Interesting)
I Take "Retention Calls at an AOL Call Center (Score:5, Insightful)
The "saves rate" expected of us is 65%. Incredibly, we have to get two thirds of the people calling to cancel their AOL off the phone without canceling them. This pressure to hit these numbers causes retention agents to due some pretty unscrupulous things.
In training we are told a bunch of bullshit about the "value" of AOL. But that's not how it works when you get out onto the floor. Here's how it really works: You be a very good listener, repeat back to the member the cancellation reason as though you agree with them to give the member the feeling that you are to cancel their account. You be extremely nice to them and show empathy. This is to get them to let their guard down. Then you ask them to get a piece of paper and write down your email address and you start talking about keyword this and keyword that to confuse and distract them. Then you read the "full disclosure" which is a statement that basically says your account is not canceled. If they are not listening closely they will get off the phone with the feeling that you have cancelled the account even though you didn't.
Once you practice and polish the technique it works amazingly well especially on people who don't speak real good english, older folks, inner city types who have little experience dealing with good salespeople, hillbillies in Alabama and people who are just plain stupid. And since they are stupid they typically don't look at their checking or credit card statements and many months may go by before they notice that AOL is hitting them for $23.90 a month in automatic withdrawals. Do the math. It's a lot of money for AOL.
I am ashamed of myself. But my last job was tech support and I made $9.75 and hour. Here I make about $28 an hour. As soon as I save enough for a down payment for a house I'm getting out of here.
Re:I Take "Retention Calls at an AOL Call Center (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:This should come as no surprise (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked at a fairly sizable local ISP (40000 dialup customers at the time) when 5.0 came out.
We served a lot of rural areas- upstate NY; adirondacks. So a lot of people would dial into our service so they could run AOL over the top.
Installing 5.0 completely hosed EVERY other dialup connection on the computer. And a good portion of the time, it would hose LAN connections too!!!
Christ, I will never forget how the phones were lit up for the next 3 weeks.
There was supposed to be a class action lawsuit over that version, but i never heard what happened to it.
Parent