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Disney World Collecting Fingerprints
Posted by
Zonk
on Fri Jul 15, 2005 09:08 PM
from the they're-not-pins dept.
from the they're-not-pins dept.
cvd6262 writes "Disney World is now requiring all visitors to have their index and middle fingers scanned to gain entrance to the park. This started for season pass holders, but is now required for everyone." From the article: "'I think it's a step in the wrong direction,' Civil Liberties Union spokesman George Crossley said. 'I think it is a step toward collection of personal information on people regardless of what Disney says.'"
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Wrong. (Score:3, Informative)
With that aside, WHO CARES. You cannot be uniquely identified by your hand geometry, it simply reduces the chance that you are using someone elses pass.
Parent is not troll, makes good point (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, you probably can't buy a park hopper ticket and give it to a terrorist now, but you shouldn't be doing that anyway.
Parent
Re:Parent is not troll, makes good point (Score:4, Interesting)
In large pools and rent-a-pass networks, there could be something like one pass per hundred users since not everybody goes to WDL every day of the week for the full day.
Parent
Re:Parent is not troll, makes good point (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, but they could if they wanted to. They shouldn't sell shit like that if they're counting on it not being used. This is like a web hosting company overselling its resources, and counting on the fact that the customers won't all decide to use what they bought.
This is their fault. Don't sell me a 6mbps cable modem on an "unlimited usage" plan and bitch at me or shut me off when I max it out. And so what if I share it with my neighbor? The bandwidth has been paid for. If my subscription is a net loss to you, then you should have sold me less or charged me more.
If they want to reward and encourage people who go to Disney parks regularly, maybe they should do it differently. I don't buy some kind of personalized, reduced-rate sandwich card at Subway. They give me these little stamps, that I can redeem later when I have several of them. Maybe they could do some kind of "frequent flyer" style program. Hell, I don't know. There are a hundred other ways to do this that don't involve personal surveillance.
And I'm not even saying that the passes should go unchecked. Maybe their current model is fine. There are other ways to check ID. Maybe instead of machines to scan your hand and get people through lines quicker, they should have more people looking at IDs. (And I mean looking. That's it. That's all that's neccessary. Not writing down what's on it or keying it into a database. That's right, more wage-earnging human beings. Disney can afford it.
Parent
Re:Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been to Disney a batch, and one thing I noticed was that the park hopper passes arn't restricted like this, only single park passes and season passes (which makes sense on the seasonal ones so you cant loan out your pass and let the entire neighborhood go for free)
To me the logic is to prevent/deter theft on the individual passes, or at least give that illusion (which seems to be a key element in America many times now). If you had to provide a name, or some other actual record, say an eye scan or an actual finger print, then yeah, I'd be a tad more concerned, but this I'll conceed in the proverbial war on privacy so that I may pick my key battles another day.
Parent
Re:Wrong. (Score:4, Informative)
I personally do not see the device as a finger print scanner. The devices are just a little too crude looking (and don't take very long to do) to actually scan your finger print and compare that to a massive database of other prints in the 2 - 3 seconds it takes. I agree with the GP, they seem to just grab some non-unique hand geometry and compare that to the first record that was created the first time the ticket was used. The device seems only "good enough" to prevent me from giving my annual ticket to my friend so he can get a free day at one of the parks. I am sure that enough people tried my pass, one of them would have similar enough hand geometry to get in.
Parent
In Other News (Score:5, Funny)
Snidley Frux-Disney, adopted great-grand nephew of Walt Disney's mentally handicapped half-brother Edgar "See What I Do On A Steamboat" Disney said "This is a positive move, we believe it's time for Mickey and Goofy to learn the goose step".
"Liberty Is For Chumps" will feature Mickey and Goofy in a moral dilemna as they discover that Minnie votes Democrat and donates to the ACLU. "We thought this was the perfect time to retire the character of Minnie, with some real snazzy shots of the Disney Prison, Disney Riot Squad and the Disney Execution Chamber."
"In Do You Know What Your Parents Are Saying When The Door Is Locked", Goofy discovers that his mother and father are actually distressed that the Patriot Act may be giving away far too freedoms. Mickey sings a brand new Disney hit "Those Little Birds Will Shut Up If They Know What's Good For Them". Naturally, there's some rousing fun as Goofy arrests his parents for thought treason.
A third film, entitled "Your DNA Belongs To Us" is scheduled for release next year.
Parent
Re:I call bullshit (Score:4, Interesting)
You are confusing common-sense business with the activities of mega-corporations. Once corporations become as large as some small countries, they too develop an unquenchable thirst for power and control over others, the sheep known as "consumers" in particular.
So they deploy police-state mesures, even if they are actually losing money on the specifics. The general idea however is that enslaving "consumers" will in the long-term result in an uninterruptible (regardles of economics) income. Disney (like many other corporate nation-states) has been engaged in these activities for a very long time.
You did not think DMCA was about piracy, now, did you?
Parent
Re:Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
I couldn't agree more (Score:3, Insightful)
I fucking hate Disney for what they have done to our laws. I hate them for using this hand scanner. They are bastards.
Re:I couldn't agree more (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, I won't be visiting any of their parks in the forseeable future. The only finger of mine they'll be seeing is the middle one.
Fix it by blowing it up. (Score:5, Insightful)
"I hope a nuke goes off in NYC, or should I say NYX."
Your kind are of no particular colour, you cover the spectrum of politcs and privlage. You need not worry about Disney or the cops, you are easy to recognise from your advocacy of a "final solution" that makes the rest of us want to puke!
Parent
Re:Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Wrong. (Score:4, Insightful)
Disney is not a part of your government. They are free to exist as a theme park, just as Six Flags and Alton Towers (in the UK) are. They are entitled to set whichever requirements they like for you to enter their park. Just as you are allowed to place retina scanners at the front door of your house if you so please.
I believe in monopoly regulation, so as long as Disney is not the ONLY theme park available (and Windows isn't the only usable OS), they are free to set their own rules, on their own property.
I also believe, however, that they must disclose what they will be doing with any information they collect, so that you can be informed in your decision to surrender or not surrender your finger-scans and such.
Using your Microsoft example, they currently don't quite have a monopoly on the desktop OS market. There are 2 usable alternatives (*nix and MacOS), and plenty of other hobby OSes that work to an extent. If they set DRM requirements for music and videos, etc. and the market starts to play along, producing hardware that supports this and cripples other OSes, then they develop a monopoly. This is not healthy for the market and really takes away from personal choice of OS, so it must be stopped. That is the only time I support public (government) intervention into such corporate affairs.
You see what I mean? Right now, you can always take the kids to Six Flags if you don't like Disney's rules. You can always petition Disney to change as well.
Parent
Re:Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Should I be banned from themeparks? What about grocery stores? Privately owned markets? This is the same kind of argument most liberals use for employers. They can do whatever they please - if you don't like it, look for another job.
Society is there for the people that live in it. Putting any company interests in front of those of the people is plain stupid. I've got nothing against a free market place, but in every playground there should be rules.
One should be against collecting (uniquely) identifing biometrics.
Parent
Re:No no no you've got it all wrong. (Score:5, Funny)
I believe that misspelling precedent sets a very bad precedent. Soon enough you're misspelling you're, and they're messing up they're. It's a short skid to it's, and before long no one can spell no one.
Parent
Indeed, First Hand Account (Score:5, Insightful)
What I was told was the first time you use the system they take a shot of your fingers, this is used across the parks afterwards. My group of friends laughed when I raised an eyebrow at the fact that they were collecting fingerprints (though apparently not, generally it would be taken as that).. I was a bit annoyed at the fact that my prints were then on record with Disney. What exactly is the point? Keeping people from reusing the pass? Ok, that is fair, but it would have seemed better to use something like "It was used twice in minutes? That makes no sense!" Or perhaps "They haven't left the building yet, how has it been used elsewhere?"
It just seems like they've put way too much work into making it harder.
Re:Indeed, First Hand Account (Score:5, Insightful)
It's just like copy protection and other license-enforcement schemes: they maximize the profit/user ratio by decreasing the denominator instead of by increasing the numerator.
Probably they will show a higher profit/user ratio, and the bean counters will declare a success. But they won't see the deadly effect on their image of treating their customers as criminals, nor will they ever see the profit they could have made by turning their energies to something park visitors would actually enjoy.
Parent
lost ticket sales? (Score:5, Insightful)
Dude, this is called arbitration. A buys something, but doesn't use it up, so A sells it to B. Disney hasn't lost anything - they were already paid for the days A couldn't use.
If they prevent B from buying A's unused tickets and force B to buy a new ticket that means they're double dipping.
Not a moral thing to do. But of course, in the good old USA, this is not only legal, it's the thing to do. Profits uber alles.
Parent
Re:lost ticket sales? (Score:3, Informative)
See for yourself:
http://199.44.254.194/statutes/index.cfm?mode=Vie w %20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Sea rch_String=817.361&URL=CH0817/Sec361.HTM [199.44.254.194]
Two fingers is cheap (Score:5, Funny)
They will see.... (Score:5, Funny)
Mixed Reaction (Score:5, Insightful)
The only problem I could see is if this applies to season-ticket or regular-ticket owners who bought their tickets under circumstances that did notinvolve fingerprinting and are now faced with fingerprinting or being refused access to the park.
Re:Mixed Reaction (Score:3, Insightful)
I certainly won't be giving any of them my cash in the future.
Re:Mixed Reaction (Score:3, Informative)
This is just a fuzzy form of authentication. Other people are bound to have the same hand measurements as you but it's unlikely they your friend or family member will have something close.
They've been using this for a while now. The point of it is to prevent other people from using your ticket, even if you're not eve
Re:Mixed Reaction (Score:5, Insightful)
Errr.. but the government can and should set limitations on what data companies can or cannot collect about us.
What if Disney required your home address and social security number to enter their park? You know that some people would provide that, stupid as it may be. Instead, the government has laws that limit who can require your social security number.
Or, what if Disney asked for a list of all medications you take before you enter the park. They could, but there are laws that limit the extent to which they can force you to comply, and the limit to which they could share information provided.
In other words, the government can and should limit the abilites of private corporations to store and share personal information. That's one of the things I want it to do. They just don't do enough of it these days. And biometric data like fingerprints is one of the main things that should be protected.
---------
All that said, supposedly this is just a hand shape scanner anyway, so this is moot.
Parent
Hey! (Score:5, Funny)
The problem with biometrics... (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine someone gets ahold of your identity right now. Yes, it's going to be a pain, but you can get a new SSN, driver's license number, credit cards, etc. But what if a thief gets your fingerprint and creates a fake [www.ccc.de] ? How do you cancel that? Sure, in theory, a database of compromised biometrics could be created to prevent future unauthorized use, but now what about your legitimate use? If my fingerprints were compromised, would I no longer be allowed in to Disneyland? And in a more serious application, would I be denied credit? Be unable to use an ATM?
The obvious solution: (Score:3)
Re:The obvious solution: (Score:3, Funny)
And one more time (Score:5, Informative)
There are three fundimental ways to identify yourself for access:
Something you have.
Something you know.
Something you are.
Something you have would be a physical token that can't be copied, at least not easily. A smartcard would be a good example. Someone has to physically steal it from you to use it, and you are likely to notice it's absence and alert the proper people. However the problem is that it can be stolen, or lost and thus used.
Something you know would be a password or PIN code. It's an ID stored in your head. The advantage is you don't have to carry it around and can't lose it. The problem is if someone finds it out, they can use it without you ever knowing it's been compramised.
Something you are is of course a physical trait. The good thing is that can't be stolen or anything. Problem is what you are changes, and can't be measured precisely anyhow and thus can be spoofed.
Now, real security comes from using 2 or three of these. Since their problems are different, moving to more than one makes it much harder to compramise security. If all that is required to get on a system is a password, all an intruder needs to do is find out the password and they are in. If, however, it takes a password, smart card, and fingerprint they have to find out the password, steal the card, and obtain and make a fake finger, all before any of this is noticed and access can be revoked.
So, in the case of Disneyland, they are maoving from 1-factor (somthing you have) to 2 (something you have and something you are). Even if someone steals your card, they have to build a fake hand (it's checking hand geometry, not fingerprints) and use it unnoticed. However the real aim is to prevent peopel from shaing their cards. It's easy to give away a token, much harder to make a convincing fake hand and not get caught.
So biometrics are NOT worthless unless they are the only security. When used as an augmentation to one or both of the other methods of security they make it that much harder for someone unauthorized to gain access.
Parent
Just wait (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's mine, take it (Score:5, Funny)
Respond to the poll (Score:3, Informative)
If every
Yes, I am aware it's not an official Disney poll but there's still a chance they'd pay attention to the results if they were overwhelmingly negative because the tv channel hosting the poll is neutral.
That's fine. (Score:4, Insightful)
Simple Solution... (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's fix the problem (Score:3)
The US used to have a government that was for its citizens. It's about time we had one again.
Re:I don't know (Score:5, Funny)
You haven't looked at ticket prices lately have you?
Parent
Re:Fuck you, Disney (Score:5, Funny)
You'd think that instead of all this finger scanning, they'd just scan the inside of your ass when they do the anal probe and get it over with in one easy step.
Parent
Re:Fuck you, Disney (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if Disney deserves it - do those people deserve it?
No, the people don't deserve getting hurt. The employees don't deserve getting hurt. Nobody does, not anywhere, not in the USA or anywhere. It is just so frustrating watching the America I love turn into a country where human rights and civil liberties no longer mean very much. It was frustrating being called unpatriotic for not supporting the war, like I am less of an American because I don't blindly follow, and question statements government makes, for example "we were fighting for WMD" then "No, it was never about WMD, it was about removing a dictator". Does anyone remember the presentation Powell gave at the UN showing drawings of mobile WMD factories on wheels driving around Iraq. Did my mind make that up? Do people remember any of it, or do they not care??
The government is supposed to protect all the people, to value democoracy, to gaurentee individual liberty so people can read whatever they want, work anywhere, and be free. Instead, there are libraries that require fingerprints, Disney World scanning fingerprints. It follows logic, as the price of these fingerprint machines goes down, more stores will be buying them. What will it be like, when in order to pump gas you first have to scan your fingerprints, to make sure you don't drive off. Then Hotels decide they like the idea of fingerprints scans, no more keys to rooms. Then the airplains and trains decide that in order to ride, they want a fingerprint. Then the stores in poorer neighborhoods want them, for fear of being robbed. Soon, it will be hard to find places that don't want your fingerprint.
And you know what is waiting in the shadows. Some large corporation that will buy this data and put it in some uber-large database. Your whole life will be in a computer somewhere. Your habits, where you shop, what you buy, how much you make, what you read, if you preffer coke to pepsi.
What if one day there is a government that wants a coup, to overthrow the democracy we have. Would it be easier if these people had large databases, to know exactly who to go after, the troublemakers who would make noise?
Now, take that information with what employeers are doing. Large companies convinced the USA to pass NAFTA, the companies promised it would be good for American workers. Instead, these same companies are building factories in Mexico, and firing people in the USA. Jobs that people need, that familes relied on. Watch Roger and Me, it is a good example of what can happen when a large factory closes its doors, how a community can turn from upscale into a poverty stricken ghost town. And don't get me wrong, if these companies paid the same wage to mexicans as they did to americans, I would not be complaining, but they are paying the mexicans an unlivable wage. It is slave labor, when people have to work their hearts out to make just enough to eat.
And employers are getting worse. A local computer store now requires applicants to take a drug test, then come back and take a personality test which they never tell you the results to, then the last step is agreeing for a credit check. This is for a $9.50 an hour job working the floor stocking hard drives, video cards, and anwsering customer questions. And after they hire the person, they still never tell them the results to those tests, or what they did with them. If they don't hire, you have no way of knowing if those tests were the reason they did not hire you.
What scares me is what I see comming down the pike. An America with limited jobs, most low paying, and all requiring going through databases to see everything about your life. Unlike in the 60's when anyone could get a job anywhere making good money, today it is hard to find a good job. Companies like Motorola lay off 11,000 people over three years, and then give their CEO a million dollar bonus. Sun Microsystems asked the government for permission
Parent
Re:Abuse (Score:5, Insightful)
Secure it?? They will sell it. Or government will force them to release ie.
Do you remember the airlines after 9/11. They were forced to send all their passengers data to the government. The airlines denied it. Then it came out as true. Then the airlines admitied it.
Can anyone imagine seeing a mom, pushing her 6 year old daughter and saying "honey, scan your hand so we can see Mickey".
Did anyone see the slashdot story a month ago about the Naperville library that requires fingerprints to use their library?
Or what about Boston and the thousands of cameras they put up? Then Chicago and the 3,000 cameras they put up?
When will everyone admit this is a police state? When you are not allowed to quit your job? When you are told you must work and have no overtime. When you have no health insurance. When the courts take away your rights, that your grandparents had? WHEN? WHEN!!!
Parent
Re:Abuse (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmm. For living in a police state, you sure are able to talk all you want about the evilness of the police state.
As for the article in question: if a private company wants to use a hand-geometry scanner to help eliminate abuse of their passes, well, that's their business. Just take the kids to one of those Linux-powered Open Source Anarchyworld Amusement Parks I've been hearing so much about.
Re:Abuse (Score:3, Interesting)
Sell what? Your prints? Or the reams of data they already have, like so and so has visited there 5 times in the last 3 years, and spent an average of $275 each visit.
They already do that. No prints needed.
Or what about Boston and the thousands of cameras they put up? Then Chicago and the 3,000 cameras they put up?
You want cameras? Go to England.
Re:Abuse (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I heard, that is not quite true. Apparently, the feds told the airlines that they did not have to turn over the info. But if they did not, the US gov. would forbid ALL employees from flying the airline. In addition, they would not be eligible for the loan (did not help United, but I am not sure that United gave up the data). Finally, they might have a hard time making changes at airports, flights, etc.
Basically, GWB's admin guaranteed that if they did not cooperate, that the feds would sink them slowly.
Parent
Re:Anti-Capitalist Tin-Foil Wearing Nuts (Score:3, Insightful)
Shut up. And stop drooling.
Don't like it, don't go to Disneyland.
Yeah, sure. Okay, it's creepy, but hey, it's just Disneyland. I don't have to go there. And tomorrow Blockbuster Video starts requiring a scan to rent a video, but hey, it's just video-rental. Soon the Mobil gas-station starts
Re:It's a free market (Score:3, Funny)
Re:It's a free market (Score:3, Funny)
Re:ACLU can shove it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:ACLU can shove it. (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know about the person you're responding to, but that sounds reasonable to me.
Business owners free to be as idiotically bigoted as they want to be, and consumers free to give their money to companies that don't suck. It's better than the sort of concealed racism we have now.
At any rate, it's not as though this is the last
Re:captian hook (Score:3, Funny)