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Indian Call Centre Worker Sells Customer Details
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Jun 23, 2005 08:34 AM
from the get-your-red-hot-moms-here dept.
from the get-your-red-hot-moms-here dept.
lxt writes "A British tabloid newspaper managed to buy the personal details of over 1000 bank customers from an off-shore call centre based in Delhi. An IT worker at the call centre handed over details at £4.25 per customer, as well as credit card numbers and account passwords. He claimed could sell over 200,000 account details every month. The British police force has passed on details to Interpol and the Indian authorities, in an attempt to prosecute the individual. The BBC is also covering the story."
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Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Get rid of the call centers, keep them in the country that they expect to be dealing with (UK call centers for UK clients etc)
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
When crime happens to US citizens in a foreign country, we report it and hope for the best. If it happens here (US) the various agencies can force the company to change practices and enforce corporate security.
Parent
Re:Well (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Well (Score:4, Insightful)
Like this could never happen in the US or the UK
My thoughts exactly. And I'd suggest that the number of UK call-centre employees being paid "fairly" is debateable - high if you believe the employers, low if you believe everyone else. This kind of crap strikes me as racism: unscrupulous employees exist in every country of the world; bad wages exists in every country; opportunities to commit fraud exist everywhere. I really hope this "outsourcing means Johnny Furrinner is stealing my job" crap is going to end soon, so we can focus on (all) our working conditions.
(Aside: I'm an "economic migrant" working in the UK. Originally from NZ, I've lived in the UK since 1979 and in Glasgow since 1990. I've encountered far less racism/hostility than many Glaswegians, simply because I'm white and my accent sounds Scottish - and not the Asian-Scottish that makes many Scots a target for racist tossers).
Parent
Re:Well (Score:3, Insightful)
What I think people are saying is that there seems to be a higher amount of information sales now that companies have outsourced. And without jurisdiction we don't like it. Not that Indians are more criminally active just that they know and we know the reason they have a job....they will be getting paid the lowest salary of anyone in the world for doing their job and they know it won't improve cause the company will just pack up and leave.
Re:Well (Score:3, Funny)
Let me guess; you got fed up of the sheep and endless rain in NZ and decided the west coast of Scotland was the best place to be?
Oh, hang on...
Everybody has it sort of sideways (Score:4, Interesting)
This is a problem exacerbated by outsourcing and also one reason FOR outsourcing this sort of thing. But it is not a problem particular to _offshoring_ - the problem is with companies' belief that contracting the work gets them free from responsibility for managing the safety of their customer's data - which they aren't very good at anyway. Offshoring makes legal enforcement trickier, but that's really not nearly the prime problem here.
What you need is a legal system providing substantial penalties to the banks - or anyone else collecting similar information - if they "lose" your data. These penalties should start with statutory minimum class-action penalties which automatically increase over several years and then add corporate officer liability in cases of negligence, not just malice.
Then, offshored or not, outsourced or not, they'll FIND a way to keep your information safe.
Parent
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really. Halliburton, Enron, Aldelphia, AOL Time Warner, Arthur Andersen... All these scandals were pulled off not by disgruntled underpaid employees, but by high-paid execs.
It's like the old quote, "how much money is enough? A little bit more." Basically, you can't *pay* someone to be honest. If someone is greedy, more money won't satisfy him.
also, I'd like to point out that the workers in idea *are* being paid fairly. A fair wage is based on cost-of-living for where you live. Thus, they make *great* salaries compared to most of their countrymen. Their standard of living is *high* for their region. Most of them are quite grateful for their comparatively high-paid jobs.
Parent
Re:Well (Score:4, Informative)
One of these kids is not like the other. Arthur Anderson's conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court. [cnn.com]
Parent
Re:Gimme a break (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Gimme a break (Score:5, Insightful)
You've got to be kidding. Reporting a factual story is 'in poor taste'? This isn't the first time serious stories like this have come up. In the not so distant past....we had reports of a lady in India threatening to sell/release private medical information on US citizens if she wasn't paid some $$'s. And you seem to think that being nationalistic is something bad?? Why would anyone NOT want their country to come out on top? This life is a constant struggle, a perpetual contest to see who can win. Life IS competition, and frankly, I'd like to be on the winning side as often as possible. And while I don't advent keeping anyone down, I certainly am not altrusitic enough to want to give to others 'till it hurts'. I not only don't want others to succeed at our expense, but, I can't stand the fact that our country is actively hurting our citizens by thoughtlessly shipping our tech jobs overseas for a short term gain, but, losing sight of the long term detrimental effects....the main one being that if we don't have tech people working here, how will we continue to innovate? Already, we see the effects in that our young people are NOT working toward computer and other tech degrees as much as in the past.
"Which is not surprising, considering that offshoring/outsourcing is such a contentious topic right now. The average person, with zero knowledge about Economics, already believes the Indians and the Chinese are going to rob them of their jobs. Now those dirt poor foriegners are going to take their credit card numbers as well. The hypocrisy is, as you point out, this happens every day in Western parent companies. Which is fine, because everyone would rather be embezzled by their neighbor than someone they don't know."
to a point, you are right. Sure, there are criminal types all over the world. However, different cultures have different degrees of what they consider to be crimes. It does seem that India does not view privacy ideals, and minor theft of such as great of a crime as it is in the US by statute. Sure we have people that will do the same here in the US. However, we can catch them here and prosecute them. I doubt the same can be said of India. And lets face it...people in a country are going to be a bit more careful with treating their own people and their information than they will that of peoples of other countries. Someone that might be on the 'brink' of doing something wrong like this might think twice if it is a fellow countryman's info, rather than a foreigner's information.
And finally....you and others keep saying "In the long run, it will be better". Better for who? I cannot see how this benefits the US at all....shipping off jobs and creating unemployment for our citizens....giving no incentive for our young to go into tech fields..sure, we get some cheaper goods, but, in the end, if we have no decent paying jobs...who will be able to buy these cheap goods? Like I said, I have no problem with anyone in the world trying to improve their lot in life...but, not at my expense.
Parent
Re:To be fair, it's a western problem too (Score:5, Informative)
That's true, but offshore call centers make less - they have to, companies wouldn't be outsourcing to them. One of the big problems is, due to exchange rates and costs (the same reason work is outsourced there), it's much cheaper to purchase this type of information from a employee in India.
Think about it, if I read the article right, this guy sold 1000 names for about $8000. That might be his whole annual wage. If someone came to me, as a IT professional in the US and offered me $8000 to sell private corporate information, I would laugh at him. Now if someone came and offered my whole annual salary, I could be tempted. Thing is, private information on 1000 people probably wouldn't be worth my annual salary, or even the annual salary of a call center worker.
Bottom line is you can always find someone that will steal information for you for a price. Outsourcing to India, China or Russia just lowers the price of the information you want.
Parent
Bring back (Score:5, Funny)
Lowest bidder indeed (Score:5, Interesting)
In other words, "the jig is up".
I'm not saying "people from India are criminals". I'm saying someone [anywhere] who is paid like shit to do a job is likely going to try and supplement their income. This could [and has] just as easily happen in Canada or the states.
Tip of the iceberg...
Tom
Re:Lowest bidder indeed (Score:5, Interesting)
At the peak of the outsourcing boom, people were outsourcing to just about any random company without running through their credibility or history.
As a result, they ended up having contracts with people who didn't care all that much about their data, or what it meant. This is another example of why that's so screwed up.
Now, things will even out. All the smaller outsourcing firms will lose out and only the big players will remain - they may charge more, but they also pay more and will usually have procedures in place that will prevent this sort of thing.
This is a good thing, because things will even out, some may choose to go to another firm, or some may come back here to the US. Either way, the market will eventually stabilize.
Parent
Quality. (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, things will even out. All the smaller outsourcing firms will lose out and only the big players will remain - they may charge more, but they also pay more and will usually have procedures in place that will prevent this sort of thing.
So you are saying that greedy managers everywhere have yet again been reminded of something the r
Re:Lowest bidder indeed (Score:5, Informative)
Use a google search engine next time.
Tom
Parent
Re:Lowest bidder indeed (Score:5, Interesting)
The second guy had a girlfriend who worked at a neurologist's office. Most of the patients are old with degenerative conditions. When a patient would die, the girlfriend would pass on the info, and he'd get some cards, max em out, and throw them away. He's actually a pretty successful guy now. don't think he's with the girl anymore though.
All of which is to say - the problem is ubiquitious. Corruption is inherent with the humans dealing with the data, but I can't help but think that there must be a better way of dealing with financial data to prevent theft.
I'm torn, because with increased attempts at security come fewer freedoms. Pretty soon you'll have to give up the Gattaca drop of blood in order to buy movie tickets. I'm not sure if that makes the world a better place.
Parent
Re:Lowest bidder indeed - about your own morals (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say your morals are pretty suspect in this.
Actually, they're not suspect at all. They're as bad as the people you let get away with these crimes.
Parent
Re:Lowest bidder indeed (Score:3, Informative)
If Dell outsources to India and you get rammed you sue Dell USA not Dell India. Since it's Dell USA that sends the data out they're responsible for what others do with it.
[I'm using Dell here as an example company, obviously this applies to any other outsourcing company].
On top of that fraud is well covered by the Indian penal code so their actions are not going to be "totally unnoticed".
Tom
Send me your info (Score:5, Funny)
- Full name
- Home address
- Phone
- Mother's maiden name
- PIN number
- Favorite password
Please send this information to me accompanied by a money order in the amount of $4.95 to cover my processing fees. I will get the confirmation about the tabloid article back to you ASAP.Re:Send me your info (Score:5, Funny)
Thank you for this interesting offer. It sounds like a very good service.
Unfortunately, you forgot to include your address, so I don't know where I can send my data and the money.
Parent
My address (Score:5, Funny)
My most esteemed colleague,
Please excuse my unforgiveable oversight in neglecting to put a return address. In my excitement to be making such excellent contacts in your country, I was clearly negligent. Please remit all sums to:
Post Office Stop A
Lagos State
Nigeria
I cannot tell you how grateful I am to find such a kind and professional person such as yourself, and I look forward to a mutually beneficial financial arrangement. Please send the money right away!
Parent
The problem with concentration (Score:5, Insightful)
Sending potentially valuable information to people in a high stress, low paying job (in country or out of country, my wife worked in a call center in college) with poor controls is a risk. We have known this since the beginning, but we just seem to relearn the lesson each time.
Re:The problem with concentration (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Indian press (Score:5, Informative)
http://us.rediff.com/money/2005/jun/23bpo.htm [rediff.com]
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1408799,00
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/11
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/11
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=
For everything else... (Score:4, Funny)
For having to having to chase payment defaulting customers - 150 rupees.
For handing over personal bank information - priceless.
For everything else, there's "EmbezzleCard".
Crime and Punishment (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Crime and Punishment (Score:4, Insightful)
In terms of law, India is /far/ more advanced than many countries in the world.
- Separation between religion and state (expressed in the constitution as the nation being secular) actually works in India unlike many countries. India currently has a Sikh Prime Minister and a Muslim President. Whats more, our Muslim President has an advanced enough and open enough view of religion that he is a scholar and a practitioner of the often contradictory Hinduism and Islam.
- India is the worlds largest democracy. There's a billion people in India, and there's no country with a population even close to it thats a democracy in which the democratic process works as well as it does in India. And you honestly think that a working democracy would make laws to chop hands off citizens?
- Like mentioned in a previous post, India has joined other progressive (read non-US) countries in placing more value on human life - the death penalty exists, but is very rarely used. I think in the past several years, 1 person has been executed.
Please quit making completely unwarranted, unjustified, and most of all, uneducated comments. Your time is better spent actually looking up some information Wikipedia or elsewhere on the web every now and then. There's nothing healthier than doing that.
Parent
The Sun (Score:5, Insightful)
The point of this story is what exactly, that everyone has their price ?
Re:The Sun (Score:3, Interesting)
And the prices seemed to be predetermined, and the guy from the tabloid just had to ask. It was not that he was offering too much money per record. Validated postal addresses have been sold for more on a regular base. And you got the credit card information thrown in for free with this guy.
Normally bribing someone to give you sensitive information costs much more.
Re:The Sun (Score:3, Interesting)
It demonstrates most simply, that the price of harvesting people's information is much less than the rewards you will reap after having paid for the files.
Approx £4 sterling per account, withdraw £100 per account on average.....PROFIT!
And once the 'authorities' find out who did it, what can they do to that person? Put them in gaol. What can the buyer of the call centre service do to the company that provided the service? Put them out of business. Niether of the
Not again... (Score:5, Funny)
dials...
CS: "Hello sir, my name is Rodney, how may I help you?"
You: "What's with the delay?"
CS: "Hello sir, my name is Rodney, may I help you today?"
You: "Um...OK, my identity got stolen. Can you help me?"
CS: "OK, sir, first reboot your PC."
You: "Wait a sec, this isn't a tech call."
CS: "Tell me your personal information, so I can find out your account."
You: "OK..."
Not Just in India (Score:4, Interesting)
Outsourcers guilty of offense: Data Protection Act (Score:5, Insightful)
The act *is* flawed in that it allows data to be sent to countries without similar data protection if they have a contract in place, it shouldn't allow that in the first place. But the contract in place with the oursourcing organisation should make sure that they have sufficient safeguards in place to stop this, the fact that it's happening says that the outsourcing companies are in breach of contract and the banks haven't put sufficient safeguards in place, an offence against the data protection act, 1998.
We need some prosecutions against CIOs, CEOs and the like. A couple of years in prison would improve their attitude to data protection.
DPA (1998) Breach (Score:3, Informative)
I was waiting for this response.
I think that the Data Protection Act is a wonderful idea, along with all the other privacy related laws that the EU and the US have implemented.
Unfortunately, they all suffer the same weakness - people. No matter how well written the laws become, there will always be someone who has access to valuable information who is willing to sell / destroy / manipulate it for profit.
I think that, in addition to the laws currently on the books, that they should get extended to provi
Re:DPA (1998) Breach (Score:4, Interesting)
" in addition to the laws currently on the books, that they should get extended to provide real penalties to companies and people in breach."
Absolutely. A law without enforced penalties is a waste of time and money. There *has* been an offence against the DPA here, the customer data is evidence. The law requires proactive implementation of safeguards to stop it happening, though it doesn't specify what those safeguards should be.
At the moment, people found guilty of an offence can only be fined a maximum of £5000 (Per offence?). I think that we need prison as an option.
Parent
Barking up the wrong tree (Score:5, Insightful)
They are barking up the wrong tree. If only the individual in another jurisdiction is liable to sanction, why is it allowed for British banks to move personal information to foreign countries in the first place? Shouldn't the bank be fined for failing to protect personal information of British citizens?
Abuse of power by employees is not something new or interesting, but the accountability issue is. Personal information should only be moved between countries with similar protections against abuse. Having said this, I don't know anything about British law on this issue.
The way the world should work according to me (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally believe, however, that a company should still be required to enforce all regulations which protect the citizens of the source country (in this case, the UK). If it turns out the company is not able to force compliance with the governing regulation for whatever reason then it should be illegal to outsource that particular function. And if they are able to force compliance then the source company should be held liable for failure to comply by the outsourcing company with all of the associated penalties. The result would be that the source company could not avoid the cost of insuring regulations were followed and the outsourcing company would incur the cost of compliance as well.
This would have at least two effects. The cost of outsourcing would be more in line with competition in the source country and the citizens of the source country would not lose the protection afforded them by law.
How is this a surprise? (Score:3, Insightful)
All people want to be able to make their lives better; for themselves and their family. When the impoverished see wealthy people eating steak, the bowl of gruel in front of them doesn't look very tasty. When people see something they really want, wether it's a plate of food or a life style, they will beg, borrow and steal to get it.
The solution? Companies need to pay people enough money that the employee can see they are making progress towards their dreams and goals, not just getting by from paycheck to paycheck.
Wait... (Score:3, Insightful)
You give consent (Score:3, Insightful)
running from a guy with a gun (Score:5, Interesting)
well, before you think that it was your average latino guy that carries a gun i have to tell that it was a US businessman who operates a casino here
well I think if instead of the police, some big guy chases you down the street with a gun every time you touch data that does not belong to you - really makes the point
"where there is gambling, there are criminals"
I've worked in a call center (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway, at one point, a guy used someone's credit card to buy roses for his girlfriend. That's below criminal, and into the "just plain stupid" range.
After that, the company locked down everything. No cell phones on the floor, etc. Reps who regularly deal with sensitive e-mail don't even have access to e-mail. Access to sites like Yahoo is blocked from their computer and I'm not sure what else
While all activity is monitored, last I heard they were looking for a way to automate their search for suspicious behavior. (scanning logs for when a user opens notepad and types a credit card number. Probably not too hard in Perl, but I don't know the language.)
People talk about lower standards of living in other countries, forgetting that this is partly made up for by the fact that it's a lot CHEAPER to live overseas than in the United states. So while poverty in 3rd world countries is rampant, if you pay someone a halfway decent wage, the money goes a long way there.
And when you get down to it, it would be pretty tough to run a call center in the US staffed with college grads, like you could do in the Philippines, and keep it open 24 hours a day.
The fact that it's harder to prosecute people overseas is a problem. The company I worked for was based in the US, though, so it was still liable under US law. And I think that the company's potential liability was a selling point with potential clients.
Of course, one element in every crime is opportunity. The black market in the Philippines seemed much bigger than in the states which should increase the opportunity to sell things a person shouldn't be selling, be they pirated DVDs or CC#s
follow up on this (Score:3, Insightful)
And yet we still do nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
NOT the first time this has happened! (Score:3, Interesting)
Link [sfgate.com]
So anyway, a worker with all those medical records contacts the hospital and ransoms their records. Great fun.
Re:Outsourcing sucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Ah... The benefits of outsourcing (Score:3, Insightful)
Aside from the facts that the vast majority of educated Indians can speak English, most of them aren't particularly anti-American, and you sound like a complete bigot, you may have had a point.
Bitter much?