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Anti-DMCA Petition in Canadian Parliament

Posted by Zonk on Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:52 AM
from the they're-a-different-country,-see? dept.
Matthew Skala writes "Last month we heard that the Canadian government is rejecting some of the worst features of the DMCA (more analysis here), but with Heritage Minister Liza Frulla parroting the media-cartel lobby with a promise to "give the tools to companies and authors to sue" and persuade children that downloading music for free is morally wrong even though it's presently legal in Canada, the battle is far from won. Yesterday, Member of Parliament Peter Julian (Burnaby-New Westminster, NDP) introduced the first batch of signatures on Digital Copyright Canada's Petition for Users' Rights. This isn't just a Web click-through petition that politicians can freely ignore; more than a thousand real hardcopy signatures have already been collected from Canadian residents opposed to further expansion of copyright privileges, and the campaign is hoping for many more. Additional coverage on p2pnet.net."
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  • Legal vs. moral (Score:5, Insightful)

    by October_30th (531777) on Friday April 08 2005, @11:53AM (#12177500) Homepage Journal
    Uh, what kind of an argument is that?

    If something's legal, it doesn't mean it's also moral and conversely, doing the morally right thing might not be legal at the time.

    • by camkind (742277) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:04PM (#12177633) Homepage
      As Rev. Lovejoy once said to Marge

      "Once something has been approved by the Government, It's no longer immoral."
    • by ShaniaTwain (197446) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:04PM (#12177634) Homepage
      All laws should be based on morals. its the moral thing to do. otherwise the cavity of immorality will rot away the molars of our morals.
        • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08 2005, @12:25PM (#12177853)
          > I find that morality seems to always infringe on a person's rights and freedoms.

          I find also that my morals are always infringing on my own rights and freedoms. Which is weird, because they're my morals, so they're right, but also they're wrong.

          > So you see, you can't simply force a set of moral upon an entire population.

          Not simply. It takes a lot of weaponry and planning.

          > Morality is a personal choice.

          OK.

          > If someone chooses not to be moral,
          > well there's no way you're going to force them to have a sense of
          > morality.

          Wait. So morality exists, and people choose to be moral or immoral? If morality exists absolutely, then how can you force morality onto someone? They either choose to be moral, or not.

          > Part of freedom is being free to choose

          All of freedom is being free to choose. That's it.

          > and in this case being free to choose what you think is moral and immoral.

          So if I choose to have no sense of morality, then what have I chosen?

          You're confusing me. Stop it.


          • > So you see, you can't simply force a set of moral upon an entire population.

            Not simply. It takes a lot of weaponry and planning.

            BWAHAHAHAHA! Funniest thing I've read all week!
          • >> Part of freedom is being free to choose
            >All of freedom is being free to choose. That's it.

            In the words of Geddy Lee (a Canadian, so this post is certainly ON TOPIC):

            You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
            If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
            You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
            I will choose a path that's clear
            I will choose freewill.
      • technically legal to steal the music up there

        It isn't stealing in Canada, by definition. Your opinion does not make law.

        Max
      • Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:5, Insightful)

        by satherto (513840) <scottNO@SPAMathertontech.com> on Friday April 08 2005, @12:20PM (#12177811) Homepage
        Actually it is moral to burn music for free in Canada, as we pay a surcharge on every blank CD, Cassette tape, and VCR tape to give to the artists. The reason it is legal and moral, is that the work has been paid for MANY times over due to the levy.

        As has been stated many times, the levy goes to the copywrite holders (in Canada) not to the government.

        It is (IMHO) that it is immoral to take our money and then try to convince us that we can't use what we have purchased.
      • Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        If it really was thievery, that is.

        To me, it's the equivalent of someone photocopying Dilbert from the news paper, and passing it out during business meetings, etc.

        or someone taking the newspaper from the breakroom, photocopying Dilbert, and adding it to his Dilbert collection, perhaps even scanning it and leaving it on an obscure page in his website, for people he wants to have. Why is not important in this case.

        I mention this because the issue of photocopied comic strips getting distributed in offices
  • by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Friday April 08 2005, @11:54AM (#12177514)

    From the article:


    She [Liza Frulla] said she wanted to make it her mission to persuade children that downloading music for free is wrong.


    Mabye she could start up a hip, happening new ad campaign like the SPA's Don't Copy that Floppy [versiontwo.org].

    Mabye it will be just as effective, too.

    Mabye I'm a Chinese jet pilot.
  • by ahsile (187881) on Friday April 08 2005, @11:54AM (#12177521) Homepage Journal
    And plan to sign it, and have everyone I know sign it. I won't have my rights stepped on without a fight. Who knows, maybe parliment will even reject the WIPO changes.
    • by ShaniaTwain (197446) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:02PM (#12177619) Homepage
      See this just doesnt seem right. Canadians are supposed to be passive and polite to a fault. Americans are supposed to be Freedom loving individuals that hate big government interfering in their life. Where am I? bizzaro world?

      Ah well, at least the Canadians aren't burning down the white house anymore..
      • I've been reading too much about the DMCA act... it's poisoned my passiveness.
      • If you replace 'passive' with 'not antagonistic' then you have it right.

        Oh, and I think the Republican attempt to have the *federal* executive and legislative branches overturn a *state* *judicial* matter gives lie to that other bit.

        Man, a hundred years ago, an attempt like that would have seen armed citizens in the streets.

      • by maxpublic (450413) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:22PM (#12177832) Homepage
        Ah well, at least the Canadians aren't burning down the white house anymore..

        And this is a good thing???

        Max
        • by Kwil (53679) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:33PM (#12177949)
          By that argument, it was also the British who fought for independance.
        • British Troops burned the white house (canada wasnt a country in the war of 1812, still a british territory).

          no, im not a history geek....

          And boy, does it show.

          At the time of the War of 1812, there were two territories with the name "Canada" in them -- Upper Canada, and Lower Canada. People who lived in those territories were known as "Canadians" (or, in the case of Lower Canada, "les Canadiens").

          A group can be a people with having a nation. Ever hear of the Kurds? The Palestinians? The Welsh?

          There was a Canada before Confederation, and the people who lived there were Canadians. Yes, they were British subjects (although their loyalties to the British crown certain varied -- Native Canadians and French Canadians also participated in the War, but generally held no special loyalty to the crown), but there is nothing preventing anyone from calling them "Canadians", and being perfectly understandable and correct when they do so.

          Yaz.

      • Are you absolutely sure that the "fansub" was really a fan-produced version? On occasion, the fansubs that you can get on the internet are actually just rips of a DVD from one of the Asian markets that happens to include English subs. Most of the reputable places that host fansubs try to weed those out, but if you downloaded them from usenet or IRC, that might have been what you ended up with.

        Not saying that's neccessarily what happened here, but that would be my first guess given the situation you descr

          • Damn, I'm in exactly the same musician boat as you are. Former pro, no rights to anything I worked on in the past. The terms of the contract weren't merely onerous: We received 5% of NET revenue, with all production expenses to be repaid.

            You do the math, dear reader. For every one million dollars of revenue received by the record company, we got $50,000, to be split four ways. And we had to repay the recording, production and artwork expenses (also note we couldn't shop around to get the best rates on
  • Excepting for the political thieves involved in the Sponsorship scandal, sometimes we get things right. Canada has great fair-use laws and politicians seem to know we the voters like it that way.
      • by saforrest (184929) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:32PM (#12177932) Homepage Journal
        Lots of French people in Canada.

        For God's sake, they've been here for four hundred years!

        At this point they're about as French as English-speaking North America is British, no matter what Triumph the Insult Comic Dog says.
  • Here... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08 2005, @11:57AM (#12177564)
    let me save you guys some time.

    • Why cant the USA be more like Canada?
    • Why do all the places with the best governments have the worst weather?
    • You like Canada so much, go move there!

    Enjoy.
  • more than a thousand real hardcopy signatures have already been collected from Canadian residents

    Shoot, that's half the country right there alrady opposed to it!

  • 1000 Signatures... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BJZQ8 (644168) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:07PM (#12177663) Homepage Journal
    1000 signatures! Wow! We're at .003 percent of the population! Unfortunately, I believe the various pro-DMCA lobbies have a lot more weight in the form of dollars...a few million Canadian dollars still is a lot of money.
    • 1000 signatures! Wow! We're at .003 percent of the population! Unfortunately, I believe the various pro-DMCA lobbies have a lot more weight in the form of dollars...a few million Canadian dollars still is a lot of money.

      Something you should know about political contributions in Canada. There are strict limits on how much a company (or an individual) can contribute to politicians. Last I checked, it was something like $10,000 per party.

      In theory, this is supposed to prevent politicians from being bought.
  • Canada Icon? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08 2005, @12:08PM (#12177675)
    Isn't it about time that Slashdot gets a 'Canada' Topic Icon? We have a USA one.

    I mean, how many YRO stories involve Canada doing something we wish was happening here? Don't we get more 'Canada' stories than, say, 'Transmeta' stories or 'Geeks in Space' stories?
  • by Proaxiom (544639) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:11PM (#12177704)
    Peter Julian's stand is a little odd consider the NDP supported ratification of the WIPO treaty that mandates a ban on anti-circumvention technology [cippic.ca].

    In any case, no matter what Liz Frulla is saying to appease the lobby groups, if the legislation sticks to the proposed plan there should be no problem.

    And what the article summary appears to have missed is that one of the things in the plan is to close the loophole that probably makes unauthorized downloading of copyrighted music legal in Canada.

    This should go hand-in-hand with repealing the blank media levy, since it is supposed to be linked to the legalization of 'private copying', but no word on that yet.

    Not that I'd expect it, though, the government has never met a tax dollar it didn't like.

  • [Frulla] said she wanted to make it her mission to persuade children that downloading music for free is wrong.

    "Everything starts with the children," she said. "They're the ones who say `recycle' and `don't smoke.' The Internet is their world."

    Ah, yes, the children, and all the terrible things that might happen to them if this isn't passed.

    • Actually, nearly 300 names on the NEXT batch of petitions that are about to be presented in the House WERE collected by, not quite a child, but a 15 year old, namely, my daughter. As part of her high school civics course, she got involved with Digital Copyright Canada [digital-copyright.ca] and circulated the petition, singly collecting the most signatures of anyone in the campaign.

      At a recent conference on copyright at University of Toronto's Faculty of Law, she buttonholed the former chair of the standing committee, Sarmite Bu
  • by Atroxodisse (307053) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:12PM (#12177724) Homepage
    I hope the American lobby tries to butt in to get Canada to make more severe copyright laws because speaking as a Canadian, nothing makes us more stubborn than when America tries to make us do something we haven't made up our minds on. End result, no additional copyright laws.
  • Ive done it (Score:4, Funny)

    by crabpeople (720852) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:29PM (#12177899) Journal
    Just printed off the petition, passed it around the department to sign and then gave it to the shipping department to mail out.

    Total time: 25 minutes
    Cost to me: 50cents (postage)

    Feeling empowered istead of victimized: Priceless

    theres some laws you cant buy, for everything else theres internet petitions
    • 25 minutes spending dicking around instead of working: $8.00

      Postage: $0.50

      Employees dumb enough to brag about their slackness on Slashdot so that you can conveniently round them up and fire them: priceless

      There are some forms of misbehavior you can't punish. For everything else, there's Human Resources.

  • by doc modulo (568776) on Friday April 08 2005, @01:32PM (#12178597)
    "I'm Burke, I work for the company"

    The quote might not be accurate but the power of corporations keep growing lately. Especially in the US where the laws keeping corporations in check are too weak.

    A lot of conflicts where people died were partly because of corporations. Corporations get too powerful, violence has to happen to get the situation back to normal/livable. Happened in history lots of times. Mussolini said something like: "Fascism can be more accurately called corporatism"

    It's happening right now as well, there was this piece in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" where the population in a South-American country/province rebelled against a corporation and it's corrupt helpers. They were forbidden to collect and use rainwater from their own roofs because the water company wanted to sell more water at starvation prices.

    I hope we can fight off software patents in Europe, I hope Canada can fight off this law. Better to do it now peacefully than having to do it violently later. Might already be too late for the US. Incredible how the doofuses there vote their enemies into government.

    The most important thing is to keep thinking logically and optimistically. Keep an image of what you want in your head and things will work out. For example, think: "it's not too late for the US, things WILL work out better if we can just convince people of the truth, the brainwashed can not be convinced should be labeled not sane" etc.
  • by LordZardoz (155141) on Friday April 08 2005, @01:44PM (#12178744)
    They can pass all the laws they want about copyrights for digital media. They will be largely inneffective as a deterrent.

    Until someone breaking such a law shows up in court, this will all mean nothing anyway. I would prefer the petition succeeds, but sooner or later, the entire damn thing will come crashing down simply because the law that the petition is against is essentially unenforcible anyway.

    Trying to pass laws preventing computers from copying information and using the internet from sharing that information is like trying to pass a law saying you can buy scissors, but cannot use scissors to cut things.

    It makes no sense to pass a law preventing you from using an item that you are permitted to own in a manner it is designed to be used.

    END COMMUNICATION
    • I think you may be confused, or maybe it's me. The way I'm reading this:

      Liza, a member of the NDP, wants the WIPO changes ratified into Canadian law, making the Canadian equivalent of the DMCA.

      The petition is to uphold the rights of the user as-is and also to uphold the decision of the superior court than downloading is not stealing.
    • by ytwang (687240) on Friday April 08 2005, @11:59AM (#12177576)
      The NDP isn't irrelevant. The current government has a minority of seats, so if all the opposition parties vote against a proposed piece of legislation, then it won't pass.
    • by Ubergrendle (531719) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:01PM (#12177608) Homepage Journal
      Except we currently have a minority government, which means the Liberals have to tread very carefully to avoid losing the confidence of the house.

      Also, given the latest sponsorship scandal (biggest scandal in Canadian politics in the last 10, maybe 20 years) the opposition parties will be looking for publically popular positions to use to 'gang up' on the ruling party.

      This petition has some weight given its timing, and private member's bills have been known to successfully be passed...especially during minority governments.
    • by JustDisGuy (469587) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:02PM (#12177613)
      "The NDP isn't in power...and is therefore irrelevant in a Parliamentary system"

      Erm - WTF are you talking about? This isn't an "NDP" initiative, and even if it were our government is currently a MINORITY government, which gives all MP's, especially those sitting in opposition, significantly more power.

      While I do not doubt that the politicians WILL ignore it, I think they do so at their peril. And just because I have no hope that they will lend credence to the petition does not mean I will not get everyone I know to sign it and send it to Parliament Hill in my MP's hands.
    • by Wacky_Wookie (683151) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:22PM (#12177835) Homepage Journal
      Peter Julian is the Member Parliament (MP) for that area. So anyone who gets 25 or more signitures for there area must take their copy of the petition to their MP, weather their in "power" or not!

      My MP (Jaff Brya Victoria-Becon Hill, [Libral]) happens to be a member of the ruling party, and ther more MP's whose contsituants ask their MP's to Present the petition to Parliament the stronger it looks!

      Here is the Cool part: If I am correct, only 25 signitures are needed for each MP, so the more Rideings (Canadian for an MP's electoral district) who collect signitures, the better!

      Copied from MY OWN AC post cus I forgot to turn cookies on in Firefox!
    • We don't hate Americans. Far from it. We hate bigoted, ultra-nationalist, Fox-News-Is-Fair-And-Balanced, With-Us-Or-Against-Us, Social-Programs-Are-For-Commies, Canada-Doesn't-Matter-Because-They-Don't-Do-What- W e-Say embarrassments to humanity like yourself.

      Real, upstanding, proud citizens of the USA who carry themselves with humility, share their many gifts with their neighbours, and accept our many differences with grace are much loved here. I mean, we're family, right? I wouldn't discard my brother

      • by PChemGuy (847481) on Friday April 08 2005, @12:30PM (#12177917)
        I am a Canadian living in the US. I'm really tired of seeing comments like this from people on both sides of the border. For Americans, Canada is not the simple nation that some of you view it to be. It is also not the crime-free utopia that I hear about all the time. For most Canadians, you don't know half as much about the US as you think you do. The US is a much better country than prevailing attitudes would have you believe.

        We could all learn a lot more about each other if we got rid of these attitudes and spent a little time getting to know one another's countries.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08 2005, @12:53PM (#12178173)
      Downloading commercial music without payment is not.

      Actually, if by "downloading" you mean making a personal copy of someone else's commercial music, then you're wrong.

      The Canadian Copyright Act specifically allows personal copies of music to be made. The U.S.A. has never had an equivalent exclusion in its copyright laws.
    • Here's actual information related to its current legality in Canada... right here [www.cbc.ca]. It is currently legal to download personal copies. Whether that status will change, who knows...