FBI Demands Logs From Radical Website

sunbird writes "The details are as yet unclear due to a gag order, but apparently the FBI is once again demanding IP logs from dissident webservers. The sysadmin for flag.blackened.net, best known for hosting infoshop.org and the Anarchist FAQ has responded to an FBI request for server logs. Although he cannot reveal the details of the request due to the gag order, the sysadmin has issued an informal press release discussing his reasons for turning over the information. Slashdot articles on similar topics: (1) (2) (3)"

/dev/null

[garcia (6573)]

Our users have posted a total of 55265 articles. We have 1787 registered users

I just can't understand why someone running what is apparently a popular site would ever keep logs for more than a very short amount of time?

2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.

I'd comply and say that there are no log files as they are immediately dumped to /dev/null.

Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.

Running a website that is viewed as a "threat" to the government in which the servers reside should have taught the admin (Dave) to know better and not to keep logs of any kind past a short period of time (minutes?) so that a webstats program could be run and the data incorporated and then removed. I don't see why this wasn't followed. I mean my website only averages 1000 hits (not even unique visits) daily over a month and it takes webalizer about three seconds to do what it needs to do.

But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision.

Oh it could have been avoided if the admin took the time to make sure that no such logs were being kept. They can only subpoena what physically exists.

Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply.

Someone that is so against government control and intrusion should have known that this inevitability would occur at some point. Why didn't they take the time to protect themselves especially when they (and/or their family) could be harmed by the very people they host discussions for who could become enraged by their actions?

Re:/dev/null

[El Cubano (631386)]

Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply.

Someone that is so against government control and intrusion should have known that this inevitability would occur at some point. Why didn't they take the time to protect themselves especially when they (and/or their family) could be harmed by the very people they host discussions for who could become enraged by their actions?

Not only that, but did his site(s) get shutdown? My guess is that this currently an investigation in progress. If people start disappearing without due process or his sites are shut down, then he has a legitimate gripe. Contrary to popular belief, freedom of speech does not entitle you to say anything you want (e.g., threatening to kill someone, yelling fire! in a crowded building, etc.)

We should reserve judgment until the details become available.

Re:/dev/null

[garcia (6573)]

We should reserve judgment until the details become available.

I'm not judging anything other than his lack of foresight that got him into this mess in the first place.

Re:/dev/null

[El Cubano (631386)]

I'm not judging anything other than his lack of foresight that got him into this mess in the first place.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. My last comment was directed at the collective-knee-jerk-reacting-slashbots that come frothing at the mouth to every YRO article. I agree that some questionable things have happened, but it is still too early to tell what is really going on in this case.

Hard to know because of gag rule

[Wesley Everest (446824)]

The reason it is "still too early to tell" is because of the gag rule. That's the problem with "anti-terrorism" laws that throw our rights out the window. The government violates people's rights, and if anyone gives details about it they go to jail.

In a free and democratic society, if the government violates your rights, you can go to the press to draw attention to the issue. You are also allowed to give enough information so that people can come to their own conclusions.

Re:/dev/null

[sfjoe (470510)]

If people start disappearing without due process or his sites are shut down, then he has a legitimate gripe.

Poorly thought out.
If we wait until people start disappearing before we gripe, then by that time we won't be ALLOWED to gripe.

Re:/dev/null

[NormalVisual (565491)]

And that doesn't even include the ridiculous practice of extraordinary rendition, which is effectively state-approved kidnapping and torture. I think it's totally ridiculous that the President has accrued the power to order these kinds of things, when it very clearly says in the Constitution that Congress shall have the sole authority to declare war. One can call our "police actions" by any name they care to, but if it involves members of the armed forces dying on a battlefield, it's war. The President is there to ensure the laws passed by Congress are executed, hence the term "executive branch", but nowadays the office seems to be one almost of royalty, with Congress only playing an advisory role at best.

Re:/dev/null

[As Seen On TV (857673)]

That's a hugely naïve, and utterly wrong, position.

Freedom is not absolute. It never is. The old saying that "your freedom to swing your fist ends at my face" is as good a way of explaining it as any.

The freedom of speech is the most abridged freedom we have. There are lots of ways in which you don't enjoy the freedom of speech. You're not free to tell somebody else's secrets. You're not free to repeat somebody else's words without permission (with a few exceptions). You're not free to lie, in may cases; lying to deprive somebody of money or value is fraud, and lying to cause harm is slander.

The freedom of speech is important, but like all freedoms it has to be balanced very carefully.

Re:/dev/null

[teetam (584150)]

And who exactly would do that "balancing"? The government? The first amendment (and in fact, the entire bill of rights) was written in to make sure the individual continues to be more powerful than the state. Years of kool aid has slowly eroded that and now, we have posts such as the parent. Your example of fist and face deals with how my rights can interfere with similar rights that you have (between two individuals). The situation here is totally different and involves the state and a website. The state has no "rights". The country is slowly turning into a police state, but it is being done using the "boiling a frog" process, so very few seem to notice it. We keep singing "home of the free" even after it has lost all meaning.

Re:/dev/null

[Zeinfeld (263942)]

You're a moron.

Thus does Slashdot discuss matters of social importance.

The FBI could be interested in the logs for legitimate or illegitimate reasons. If they are investigating a crime and someone is known to have contacted the site then they have every right to demand the logs under the law.

When I exchanged email with Timothy McVeigh before he murdered 300 people in Oaklahoma City I handed over the correspondence to the FBI as soon as I heard that he was a suspect. I would have handed them over to the FBI even earlier if I had thought they could take any action, the guy was a whacko.

If on the other hand the FBI is just engaged in a fishing expedition looking for dissidents then there is a serious problem.

The big problem with the actions of the administration is that it is very difficult to trust them when they say that their interest is of the first type rather than the second. The Attorney General has provided legal opinions to facilitate torture. 23 prisoners have died during interogation. The only criminal proceedings have been taken against low level grunts who are exceptionally unlikely to have re-invented procedures that exactly match the R2I protocol of their own accord.

So instead of calling people morons or running around in tin foiul hats perhaps people should take note of the fact that yes there are real terrorists and no the administration does not have a clue how to deal with the problem. They have repeated every one of the mistakes that the British government made in Northern Ireland only on a much larger scale and to a much greater degree.

Re:/dev/null

[StalinsNotDead (764374)]

If I hear "fire!", I look around for smoke and flame.

Funny. When I hear "fire!", I pull the trigger.

To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[Sycraft-fu (314770)]

I mean I don't doubt he got the request, but his giving in and what follows is just so much drama:

"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."

No, actually, they won't. In a case like this they'll send you a subpoena asking for the infromation they want. If you fail to respond, the court will issue an order for your arrest, and a warrant allowing them to sieze the comptuers that should have the logs. When they come to arrest you, you won't get shot unless you do something stupid, like threaten them with a weapon. They'll just cuff you, read you your rights, and then gather what they came to get.

However, as you stated, he could have avoided the whole thing by just not keeping logs. I've run more than one server that doesn't keep logs, not for secrecy, but because it lacked a lot of storage and it just wasn't imporant to log what kind of access happened.

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[Rei (128717)]

While it's more than a touch paranoid to apply it to himself, COINTELPRO [wikipedia.org] , which he mentioned, was quite real [cointel.org], and did some pretty darn nasty things. It's the very reason why the "wall" between the FBI and CIA, and a lot of restrictions on the agencies, were set up in the first place.

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[georgewilliamherbert (211790)]

It seems inevitable that the computers would be seized. I don't think the investigators would take it at face value that the logs didn't exist without checking for themselves.

At least two ISP/free site admins I know have at some point or another been subpoenaed for logs, and in one case had no problem when they told the FBI that the logs they wanted the most had cycled off into deleted land because it had been more than 90 days. No systems or data were siezed. For data that was still available, printouts which were signed and dated by the sysadmin were all that was required, along with showing up to swear that those were accurate records.

The FBI are aware that computer records aren't kept forever in many cases, and the reality of retention. Just don't lie to them about how long you keep logs or delete them after they ask for them, because then you get the Martha Steward "guilty of lying during investigation" conviction.

I think that anyone doing anything in public, and internet sites are in public, should expect that law enforcement can and eventually will pay attention if they're doing stuff which might be illegal. So either don't do it in the first place or don't talk about it online AT ALL. If you do, don't be suprised if someone snitches and the logs are collected and you get busted. Duh. Don't talk about it in bars or with strangers on the bus either.

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[SquadBoy (167263)]

Fine then. They would be siezed and searched and nothing found. Granted since said servers are /.ed to hell and back and the moment I only have a bit of info but let's play thought experiment for a minute. And list the basic rookie mistakes this guy and his lusers made.

1. He kept logs. Nuff said.

2. Given as upset as he expects them to be we can only conclude that they were coming from tracable IPs. Good god welcome to fucking amatuer hour.

3. WTF was he doing keeping the servers *in* the US. As someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s and who really thinks that that American Revoultion was one of the best things to ever happen to mankind is sickens me to say this. But the US is rapidly descending into totalitarianism. If you think about it for about .3 seconds you come to the conclusion that you should seek hosting in another country, by prefrence one that has no extradition treaty.

4. The fucking idiot was *KEEPING LOGS*. There is no possible way to justify this.

He likely sits with his back to doors.

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[by Anonymous Coward]

If you visited the msg board you would notice that the logging provided was not http logs but phpbb logs (every post has the ip of the poster embedded in it) and this is what was provided.

Press Release

[by Anonymous Coward]

FBI investigating incidents on subdomains hosted by flag.blackened.net.

OK folks, here's the real deal as far as I can share it legally at the moment. Consider it as a press release if you wish and feel free to distribute it for whatever reason you deem necessary.

I'm under court order not to speak about specifics and have my attorney trying to find out what the maximum penalty for disclosure really is. I hate to have to keep my mouth shut in areas where the Gestapo is involved, but I also have to weigh things against the overall security of flag and it's subdomains and also the wellbeing of my family.

I have been ordered to submit IP info on two separate incidents having to do with subdomains hosted on flag. Both of these are in regard to claimed or threatened responsibility for acts of propaganda by the deed. Both incidents involve topics which are completely out of line for consideration here at flag and really I can only view them in two ways. Either people are simply ignorant about the murderous history of the FBI, or, as is my belief in one case, they are trying to make flag vulnerable to government intrusion.

At this point let me say, in all honesty and conviction, that if I end up dead by strange means - suicide, overdose, drunk driving accident (I never, ever, ever drink and drive), "accidental" gunshot to the back of the head while sleeping ala Fred Hampton, car jacking, or anything else reasonably suspicious, contact the FBI in Chico, California for more details.

I have called numerous friends nationwide, anarchists and otherwise whose opinions I respect and who I know will be honest and forthwith in their opinions to ask them how I should proceed. The unanimous consensus is that I comply with the wishes of the FBI and provide the IP addresses responsible. The only point of discussion, really, has been whether or not I should reveal the specific information in violation of two court orders.

Really, I am not left with much of a choice. Here are my two choices as I see them:

1. Do not comply with the wishes of the FBI. This will most likely lead to the seizure of flag and a compromise of all the sites and information online. It will probably also lead to me being imprisoned, I would guess. I personally do not fear this, but I am the sole support for my wife and infant daughter. There can be no doubt we would probably lose our home as a result.

2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.

Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.

I was first contacted by the Oakland FBI. Many of you know their history. We are talking COINTELPRO for real - not a perceived or mythical fear. They are proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question. Read the history of their disinformation campaign against the panthers if you don't believe me. The panther comic book which they completed and distributed, the fake letters between Huey and Eldridge, the fires of hatred and murder they faked and inflamed between the panthers and the US or "united slaves" which led to the murder of Bunchy Carter and John Higgins in L.A., the list goes on and on.

But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision. I post this mainly to inform you all and give you opportunity to make your own decisions as to whether I've handl

Re:Press Release

[spywarearcata.com (841806)]

Hello, Dave.

If the FBI served a court order (subpoena) then not to comply might be considered contumacious conduct warranting, say, up to 18 months in jail. Note that a court would impose this, not the FBI.

If I were you I would not worry about being assassinated since if you flout the law then you will be doing it to yourself.

Even if your attorney says to do what the FBI says, i.e., roll over, at least you will serve as a warning to others of the danger of keeping unnecessary records.

Besides, if you make a prominent warning that you do not keep records, then you will be far less likely to attract a subpoena in the first place.

Also when dealing with any federal official, please remember that even not under oath, you break the law if you misrepresent a material fact to them. Of course this does not apply to them lying to you, which they may do freely.

Re:Press Release

[whoda (569082)]

Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2

So, what you really mean is that while you preach a damn good sermon, you're really sleeping with the devil, and the choir can go to hell for all you care.

Re:Press Release

[Suicyco (88284)]

Right on there. "Though I pretend to be an anarchist and revolutionary, I am really a scared sheep like the rest of you and thought this was just a game. Whaaaaa."

Why does he have to comply? rm -rf / the server and do your time pal. What a friggin pussy.

Re:Press Release

[pla (258480)]

I am really a scared sheep like the rest of you

Only three types of people don't feel "scared"...

Those beyond punishment (usually already so far gone that anything further would only grant them release - Or gods)...

..Those too stupid to realize their danger...

... Or those who think the enemy of us all takes sides and will protect them.


The rest of us, the sane common folk, may fall anywhere in the political spectrum. But we ALL realize that fucking with "The Man", whether you believe in "The Man" or not, will cause us grievous harm.


I strongly sympathize with this poor bastard. I may chide him for not having his logs on a 72-hour regular deletion schedule (or even more often, considering the type of sites he hosted), but I still feel bad for the poor bastard. "A rock and a hard place" has no more physical embodiment than an FBI (or "insert your nation's "law" upholding body here") order to violate your own beliefs.


Why does he have to comply? rm -rf / the server and do your time pal.

Do you have any idea how much power US judges have?

"Do your time" for violating a court order could well mean (and has meant) life in prison without your "crime" ever going to trial, and no possibility of parole.

Re:Press Release

[GeoGreg (631708)]

Unless you haven't been paying attention, American prisons are centers of torture and death. Not white-collar country clubs like Martha went to, but the real prisons that are run by the Aryan Brotherhood, Mexican Mafia, etc. I'm sure that the powers-that-be could get one of the gangs to get rid of anyone that they didn't like.

Secondly, this man has a wife and child. Have you ever heard the maxim "Choose your battles wisely"? Fighting this subpeona is almost certainly not going to cause the masses to rise up waving the black flag. What would be the better result: to go rot in jail leaving your family destitute, or to live to fight another day? Life is complex, and decisions aren't always easy. Anyone who says differently is trying to sell you something.

Re:Press Release

[Suicyco (88284)]

Ahh. So don't actually stand up for something. You aren't sticking it to the man by going to jail, but you may be sticking it to the man if you go to jail because you will not divulge information the man wants.

What does "push as far as you can as long as you can" mean? Only until you wimp out?

If you are advocating violent overthrow of a government, you sure as shit better be able to withstand the reverse. Giving up under pressure is how the status quo is maintained.

Re:Press Release

[Mr. Slippery (47854)]

So, what you really mean is that while you preach a damn good sermon, you're really sleeping with the devil, and the choir can go to hell for all you care.

If someone were to rob me at gunpoint, and I choose to comply and give them my money rather than have my brains scrambled by a bullet, does that mean I'm "sleeping with the devil"? Should I instead make some sort of principled stand about my right to not be robbed?

Hell no. Any competent and sane self-defense instructor will tell you to give the nice man with the gun your wallet. Same principle applies whether the thug with the gun has a badge or not.

We all have to make choices about what's worth risking life and freedom fighting for and what's not. Like your pocket cash, server logs fall into the later category.

Re:Press Release

[SatanicPuppy (611928)]

It's always the way of it.

There was a big protest at my university during my time there, and during the course of the protest, they blocked a major throughfare to all traffic for an extended period.

It goes without saying this wasn't a liscensed protest.

Turns out there was an ambulance tied up in the traffic jam, and all the ringleaders of the protest got charged with felony obstruction of emergency vehicles.

They went from revolutionaries to crying children in the blink of an eye. The charges were upheld, and they were all convicted. Sentences were light, but a felony on your record isn't pretty.

If you play the game, you have to accept the consequences. And they can be nasty.

Chicken Big or Chkicken Little?

[stevens (84346)]

Either it's the start of the fourth reich, tracking down all the remaining Jedi^Wfreethinkers and killing them, or it's a normal subpoena request for a normal investigation.

I'll go ask Occam and get back to you.

Re:Chicken Big or Chkicken Little?

[Profane MuthaFucka (574406)]

Occam's dead. Shaving accident.

You know...

[Alias777 (841435)]

The best way to make the FBI happy is to slashdot the site. Great job! Now I have time to hide my cyanide in the subway rails!

And?

[Telastyn (206146)]

So what? If I owned a little deli, and had a security camera, are those tapes safe from subpeona? If I ran a little telecom, would the phone lines be safe from wiretap orders?

Why should server logs be any different?

Radical Websites...

[Uptown Joe (819388)]

So all those sites dedicated to the mullet rocking, Oakley blade wearing (with the pink arms) lifted Toyota minitruck driving, Coors light drinking Americans from the 80's are in big trouble!

Rad.
Totally.

Dude.

Gag orders should have expiration dates.

[ka9dgx (72702)]

All "gag" orders should have an expiration date. Once the date is passed, the order, the reasons for the order, and all relevant data should be made public. The expiration date should be public, regardless.

That's my armchair proposal for a better America.

--Mike--

They do

[Sycraft-fu (314770)]

Whenever the investigation is closed they end, or when the trial is concluded if the investiagation results in trial. Thing is people on /. as well as elsewhere have FAR too short attetion spans to keep up on that. Criminal investigations are often a very slow process. Legal processes are slow. I'm involved in a lawsuit right now, and papers were filed like 6 months ago. Nothing to speak of has happened since then, and it could be a year more before something does.

So if you want to know about these cases, you need to keep up on it. Get the details about it (there will be public infromation form the court, even if the details are sealed) and then check back on status. Eventually the matter will either be dropped or a trial will happen. After that, check the public records.

Solution: Go out to the Forest

[WillAffleckUW (858324)]

chop down a tree you've lubricated with liquid waste products while standing next to it, and cut it into short two foot segments (or half-meter for the rest of the world).

Get a poker, bend it so it spells IP, then start a fire with the sawdust and stick the poker in.

Heat up the poker till it glows, using tree branches and some short tree segments and scrap. Then brand each tree segment with the symbol IP from the poker. Reheat as needed if the poker cools.

Deliver tree segments, aka "Logs", that you can truthfully say are "IP Logs", to Secret Service.

Mission Accomplished! You are now a terrorrorrorrist.

Black Flag

[AppyPappy (64817)]

I am absolutely shocked that the FBI doesn't already own and control the site to troll for anarchists. Everytime I see a site that preaches radicalism, my first reaction is "Fed".

I have a friend who worked undercover investigating racist groups and he said he would look around the room and try to figure out who was connected to which agency. For all they knew, they ALL were cops.

Re:Black Flag

[garcia (6573)]

I am absolutely shocked that the FBI doesn't already own and control the site to troll for anarchists. Everytime I see a site that preaches radicalism, my first reaction is "Fed".

He also doesn't sound much like an anarchist when he speaks like he does. If I were part of the community he supported I would be terribly disappointed in his actions:

I'm under court order not to speak about specifics and have my attorney trying to find out what the maximum penalty for disclosure really is. I hate to have to keep my mouth shut in areas where the Gestapo is involved, but I also have to weigh things against the overall security of flag and it's subdomains and also the wellbeing of my family.

So he believes in working within a system he doesn't believe should exist? While I understand that anarchists can have moral beliefs I just can't imagine that he would be so tolerant of the way the system is built to just put up with it.

I have called numerous friends nationwide, anarchists and otherwise whose opinions I respect and who I know will be honest and forthwith in their opinions to ask them how I should proceed. The unanimous consensus is that I comply with the wishes of the FBI and provide the IP addresses responsible. The only point of discussion, really, has been whether or not I should reveal the specific information in violation of two court orders.

Oh come on, maybe Dave is a wimpy anarchist but the rest of them too? Perhaps even the extreme leftists are swinging away from their roots and becoming more moderate.

They are proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question.

And yet he runs a site that harbors anarchists and he is doing everything the FBI says? Who's the automaton that is blindly following orders from a government agency which he believes should not exist?

It is by far the most agonizing decision I've been faced with in relation to my anarchist opinions.

"opinions", quite an interesting word choice. I would expect an individual running a site that harbors some subdomains that are being investigated by the FBI would hold more than just "opinions".

Gag orders

[slavemowgli (585321)]

You know, what actually worries me more than the FBI's asking for server logs is the fact that (seemingly) every time something like this happens, a "gag order" is placed on the affected parties. It's a serious breach of the constitutional rights people enjoy; not only the right to free speech is affected, but also things like due process. A state which gathers evidence in secret is well on its way to a state that holds trials in secret, and THAT certainly is something none of us (here on Slashdot, anyway) want, no matter how we may disagree on other matters.

And of course, there is the fact that (like always) there does not even seem to be a good reason to place a gag order, short of "people aren't gonna like this and we want to avoid bad press"; I can see why the FBI wants to err on the (for them) "safe" side, but I think it's a dangerous path to take, for the reasons described above.

Oh well. I guess it just shows again that as a webmaster, you should not keep logs for longer than is absolutely necessary, and that as a user, you should use Tor [eff.org] or a similar tool to anonymise your browsing if you're visiting political websites (I wonder if Slashdot counts as one).

Re:Gag orders

[Rakishi (759894)]

I'm sure criminals would just love to have the FBI tell them before hand that they are being investigated so that they can destroy all evidence.

Coral Cache

[AyeRoxor! (471669)]

Coral Cache's copy

Click Here [nyud.net]

is working fairly well (better than original link) as of the time of this post. It's going up and down because it's having to start caching when the original link is already fairly crippled.

Just add .nyud.net:8090 to a URL

BEFORE YOU POST IT TO SLASHDOT!!!

and it will be loaded into the cache.

The earlier you do this, the earlier it will start/finish caching, and the faster it will be for all of us.

The Soviet Union collapsed

[tintruder (578375)]

Funny how the US was so against the Soviet Union on "Human Rights" grounds only a handfull of years ago...

The objections?:

-requirement for internal travel documents "your papers please"

-"blacklisting" dissidents (no-fly list?)

-secret searches (Brandon Mayfield in Portland?)

-forced medical procedures (or lack of care)

-voting irregularities

-lack of "due process" (Guantanamo Bay, sending suspects to egypt for "questioning")

-"watchers" at libraries, places of public assembly

But these days, it seems the US government is a bigger violator of human rights than the soviets ever were. A noble experiment in democracy destroyed by an arrogant few who have constructed a system to protect themselves and their petty fiefdoms from the citizenry who demand accountability.

Where I used to be a flag-waving patriot when I was a USMC Fighter Pilot, I no longer feel that way. I look at our own government as more dangerous than Saddam Hussein, Osama BinLaden, North Korea, Iran and the rest.

I look at virtually every government project in the same way I look at Saddam's statues of himself...an exercise in self-aggrandisment for those behind the project, that if it benefits even a single citizen, it's by accident, not by intent.

I almost believe the "conspiracy theorists" who claim that the government knew about Oklahoma City and 9-11 ahead of time....because if the terrorists had instead hit Congress, the FBI, the IRS and the Supreme Court, it would be hard to rally people against them. They could have killed 2 birds with one stone.

It really is sad to think this nation has deteriorated so far and that citizens have allowed their rights to be eroded to such an extent that they have all but been rendered incapable of making any meaningful change in government short of violence.

Russia today is stunning proof that the crooks and gangsters are more honest and reliable than the politicians. Maybe we need a dose of their sort of revolution in this country?

If something doesn't happen here, instead of being like 1970s Soviet Union, US citizens will end up being treated by this government like jews in 1940's Germany. Other than the ovens, little separates us from that today.

Hard to decide without details

[gbulmash (688770)]

First... IANAL.

Because of the gag order, it seems he can't say what the people whose IP addresses the FBI is demanding did.

I've said it before in a previous post and I'll say it again. "freedom of Speech" is not absolute. Just check your local noise ordinances or "disturbing the peace laws". Let's not forget the following forms of illegal speech...

• Inciting to riot
• Deceptive or false advertising
• Terrorist threats
• Slander/Libel (more a civil matter, but still...)
• Obscenity

It's sad that this guy is the one who has to pony up info to the FBI, in violation of his principles, but the safe harbor laws only extend so far. Just because he is granted certain protections from legal liability over what happens in his public forum, that does not mean he is exempt from subpoena to turn over information about them if they should do something illegal in his public forum.

Now, if the gag order comes off, and the matter seems totally spurious, then it seems more like harrassment by the FBI. But if what these users did was pretty f'ed up, then such is life. Responsibility goes hand in hand with rights and privileges.

- Greg

One man's +5 funny...

[revscat (35618)]

is another man's tragically insightful.

"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."

For some reason, I think there is more truth there than most of us would like to believe or admit.

Re:One man's +5 funny...

[Rightcoast (807751)]

Please, get a grip on reality.

Google "COINTELPRO" for a little dose of reality.
If you don't want to.... It can be summed up by saying the United Staes Government was proven to have used eviction, job loss, break ins, vandalism, grand jury subpoenas, false arrests, frame- ups, and physical violence.

The above and more (according to thier own documents leaked to the press, and later further dug up under freedom of information) were threatened, instigated or directly employed, in an effort to frighten activists and disrupt their movements. Government agents either concealed their involvement or fabricated a legal pretext. In the case of the Black and Native American movements, these assaults, including outright political assassinations, were so extensive and vicious that they amounted to terrorism on the part of the government.

Congress admitted as much and shut down the COINTELPRO (Counter-Intelligence Program)after the leaked documents went public.

I'm sure it's cozy in that utopia though.....

We do not live on a playground

[Coulson (146956)]

We do not live on a playground. Freedom of speech is not something that exists only in the sandbox. When we say something really mean, the state is not a watchful parent who should step in and pull us aside for a stern talking to.

That's the attitude a lot of people seem to take. "Oh, they were playing for real, so the FBI had to make them stop."

Liberty is either respected or it is not. The realpolitik guys will say "only when it's expedient". The libertarians will say, "all the time regardless". The Democrats and Republicans will say, "as long as you play nice", and that's the government we've got.

The government has to follow the rules all the time. They can't break them just because we're playing "for keeps"*.

*though of course actually they can, and do, and people expect them to. so they'll keep doing it.

Re:Choice bits from the "press release"

[sTalking_Goat (670565)]

I've known some smart leftists, I've also known one or two smart right-wingers.

This guy doesn't seem very smart.

1. He stupidly keeps logs

2. He caves under a subpeana

3. And then to cover his ass he plays "the spooks are going to kill me if I don't co-operate card."

What good are you to your cause if you aren't willing to risk incarceration or bodily harm for it? Anyone who tries to change the way of the world ends up dead, he should have kept his mouth shut if he wasn't willing to risk that.

If I were one of his comrades I'd be very pissed at him.

No it's not that

[Sycraft-fu (314770)]

Notice they aren't after him, they just wants logs about others that have come there.

The problem is, with extremist sites like that, you'll get some who are a little more extremist than most. Maybe you are a group of anarchists that really do believe in no government. You believe in real, total anarchy. However, you don't believe in using violence to being that about, you aren't THAT extreme. Government will leave you be, you aren't breaking any laws.

Well guess what? Sooner or later someone who IS extreme to the point that they want to use violence will show up. That will draw the intrest of the government. It is illegal to try to violently overthrow the government, make no mistake.

Well if noe or more of these people hangs around your site, you shouldn't be supprised if the government wants information on them.

Now maybe this is just harassment by the FBI, but I'd actually bet not. There are plenty of sites out there that are anti-government. I'm betting this is a real request to try and find some people for an investigation. Maybe it's just fishing, but still. The operators drama aside, it sounds like all they did was ask for the IPs that are behind some posts. I don't really see the problem.

Re:No it's not that

[Jardine (398197)]

It is illegal to try to violently overthrow the government, make no mistake.

Only if you fail.

Re:Aww geez

[gstoddart (321705)]

The guy is a self-admitted left-extremist who refer to the FBI as the Gestapo.

If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response.

Well, unless he actually did something, I'm pretty sure the US constitution used to uphold the rights of people to actually be whack-jobs and extremists.

The fact that everyone should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response is a little chilling, because if he didn't actually do anything, Gestapo is a remarkably accurate word.

Re:Aww geez

[slughead (592713)]

If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response.

Why?

Re:Aww geez

[deacon (40533)]

The amusing irony, of course, is that if US police did behave like the NKVD [google.com](Gestapo? Amateurs.) for example, we would be saved from having to listen to this wingnuts paranoid ranting.

In addition, the trains would run on time, there would be no homeless (these would be in labor camps), and we would be standing in line to buy toilet paper.

I suppose anarchists are like canarys in coal mines: as long as you hear them twittering and flapping around in their self-imposed cages, freedom of speech is safe.

Re:Aww geez

[Moofie (22272)]

So, you should be able to speak your mind, as long as your ideas aren't "extreme"?

I couldn't disagree with you more.