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Students and Bodies Tracked Via RFID Tags
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Feb 10, 2005 06:00 PM
from the they're-everywhere-they're-everywhere dept.
from the they're-everywhere-they're-everywhere dept.
AT writes "The Brittan School District in Sutter County, California, is requiring students to carry RFID-tagged identity badges on them at all times. Readers are currently installed at the doors to all classrooms. Readers were removed from bathrooms when parents protested. The school district is meeting next week to consider parents objections to the system." Relatedly (but not), Leilah writes "The University of California is considering using RFID tags or bar codes to help track their collection of bodies and parts. They are attempting to reopen their body donation program which has been on hold since spring 2004 due to disappearing parts - they've previously had legal trouble over improper disposal as well."
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There Is No Escape (Score:5, Interesting)
They must have forgotten about those RFIDed toilet paper. Someone I know received a $94 invoice for "Excessive use of toilet paper" from her son's school.
Seriously though, tracking body parts is fine since they're donated "inventory", but tracking a human is a different matter entirely.
And I'm not going to make a joke about the ease of transition from that school to the university.
Re:There Is No Escape (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
this is great. (Score:5, Funny)
or the morgue.
About damn time (Score:5, Insightful)
Total Law Enforcement rules. And the trains run on time, too!
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:About damn time (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I'm saying having the government watch every last movement I make is the absolute antithesis of the American way of life.
Parent
Kids in School != Adults on Sidewalk (Score:4, Insightful)
Minors in a school are a different thing altogether; and I don't buy the slippery slope arguments on that point. Kids do leave the schools without authorization. And no, that is never a good or welcome thing. This way school admin has another tool to know where they are, or are not, during school hours.
Some people have different thoughts on this matter. The most reasonable approach might be to assign these cards only parent request.
Parent
You might want to reconsider your worldview (Score:4, Insightful)
What do you teach children when you have to tag them and constantly monitor all their activities?
That you don't trust them. They never learn to be trusted, thus either will rebell even more than the kids of today or become complacent slaves to society (neither is healthy for anybody).
When many of these kids grow up, they'll be so used to being monitored and bitched around, when society requires this for adults too, they will not have a concept of freedom that we do. It's the American way of life to be monitored and put under constant surveillance then. Corporations monitoring for maximizing profits will seem natural, because that will make more money, and you don't really have any other options. The concept has been eradicated.
Kids become adults you know. And they become what we teach = our own example mixed with our treatment of them.
Parent
Re:You might want to reconsider your worldview (Score:5, Interesting)
That you don't trust them."
Thank you! I was hoping someone would say that.
Indeed, put yourself into a kid's shoes... well, actually, the grandparent poster didn't seem to have any concern for the feeling of violation a kid may feel at this. The ends, for him, seem to so justify the means, that anything ill about those means seems not to exist.
The general disregard for the rights, ideas, and opinions of kids is what pissed me off most about being one. No matter how smart you are, no one wants to listen to what you have to say until you're eighteen, or more likely twenty-one. If you're a kid with a talent, you're the monkey in somebody's sideshow, fodder for talkshows, political photo-ops, or slow news day "human interest" pieces.
Setting that diatribe aside, though, and going a bit more in depth on one of the parent poster's points:
"They never learn to be trusted, thus either will rebell even more than the kids of today or become complacent slaves to society"
They will not become slaves to a society that isn't constantly watching them. What lesson should be taken from being tagged and monitored than that one should behave while being watched? If one is never not watched, can one learn that one should follow the rules then too? When would that lesson be learned?
Society works through the often tacit agreement of the people in it to follow certain guidelines at all times, with the knowledge that, for most of that time, they won't be near anyone who can enforce those guidelines. Most of the time you can probably get away with crossing a double yellow line. Most of the time you can get away with stealing someone else's stapler. Most of the time you can sneak into someone else's yard and use the pool. We don't need to be constantly under surveilance, though, because most of us do agree to this social contract.
The term "social contract" brings up another of the parent poster's points(and one that has been brought up before): trust. Drafting a contract in business requires good faith on both sides. Good faith... trust. The social contract requires no less. The tagging of these students shows a lack of that faith.
Parent
Re:About damn time (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, because opponents of total law enforcement are always supporters of total anarchy.
Parent
Re:About damn time (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Well, yes. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not? There's hardly an expectation of privacy, and hard-enforced speed limits would force the populace and the government to come to a real agreement on speeding.
. Oh, and we'll need to inspect it twice a year for illegal modifications to your ride.
Twice is a bit much. How about once? (looks out window, sees annual inspection stickers on EVERY car.)
BTW, the cops'll be around next Tuesday to che
Re:About damn time (Score:4, Insightful)
Terrorist! Off you go to Guantanamo Bay - no, leave those rights at home, you won't need them.
Parent
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
I am not opposed to the automated attendance and student tracking within the schools. I am sorry but this could speed things up.
The problem is that it leaves too much room for the students to abuse the system, as another poster said it wouldn't be hard for a student to carry anothers ID in their pocket.
Re:About damn time (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:About damn time (Score:5, Insightful)
By getting people used to idea of being tracked when they are young and powerless, you have a better chance of not making them question the tracking when they are adults. Then, the next step towards total control can be taken on the next generation of children.
In fact, you can see how effective this is by looking at some of the posts in this thread already: Note how many people have been conditioned to believe that regular monitoring is normal and "healthy" now, and thus automation of this monitoring is absolutely OK.
Parent
Re:About damn time (Score:4, Interesting)
Personally, this will bite the districts in the ass when some 14 year old girl skips class with a 18 year old boy. [and ends up knocked-up to boot!] To date the schools have always had the fallback that "we can't watch them all" ... If the new policies are properly enforced, the school now be just as negligent in letting a 14 year old leave campus at ANY time as your baby sitter would be letting your 6 year old out in the street. My local district has had problems in the past of kids parents dropping them at the front door...then they just walk out the back and skip school. If I can prove my 14 year-old daughter walked thru the first RFID scanner at the door, it was the schools responsibility to "protect" her..and the administrators should be personally, criminally liable for "damage" done to my minor child "property"...if that's how their treating kids now. They can't blame "accidents" if they implemented the means to track kids everywhere in the school!
I can't wait till my kids are in school so I can nail some poor adminmistrator!!!
Parent
This won't work (Score:4, Insightful)
It was the last period of the day, and an extremely easy class. So despite there being the full list of students, the classroom was basically empty.
So, how long do you think it will be until students just give their badges to their friends?
Re:This won't work (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah but turn this around. Let's say the student loses his name tag and some other kids find it. Those kids enter some unauthorized area and cause damage. I guarantee you the school will come looking for the student. When he/she says he lost his ID card, they'll just suspend him for not having his ID card. They might do that on top of holding him accountable for breaking stuff.
Basically, you're shifting the burden of proof onto the accused - guilty until proven innocent. Very bad move! It's no wonder kids don't understand their constitutional rights when we treat them like cattle.
Oh, and in regards to your original statement, the school won't even check the records until something happens. It won't prevent anything except make it easier for the school to point and say "You broke the rules here, here, and here." Most of the rules broken are usually asinine in the first place, and no reasonable person would follow them. In doing this, the school also violates the right of every single other student following the rules.
Parent
"They envy us our freedom" (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't envy this kind of freedom....
RFID good? (Score:5, Funny)
(ducks)
All times? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like fun to carry.
which then is translated into the student's name by software contained in a handheld device used by teachers to check attendance.
I can see it now: "Hey, Mikey - take my badge and scan it for English class, or I'm gonna beat you up with it!"
Bueller... Bueller... Bueller...
Obvious solution (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Obvious solution (Score:5, Interesting)
If you can't get to a different school, you and your parents will be called to appear in court and explain why. Unless the reason is provably medical or financial, you will then be ordered to attend school. This order does not mean you will be re-admitted to your own school again, it means you have to find a way to get to some school that will accept you from outside its own district. In addition, the state will fine you (and your parents) and assign you (and your parents) community service.
If you fail/refuse to do this, you will face further fines, more community service hours AND you will be forced (as in police coming to your house and physically carrying you if neccessary) to go to a special truancy school filled with recovering druggies, violent kids undergoing therapy, and anyone who doesn't (or can't) conform to "the system" at their own expense.
Peaceful protest is always an option for a student. Unfortunately, the consequences are unpleasant not just for the student but for his entire family. Your best bet is to attact a lot of media attention while going through the process outlined above. Public outcry usually gets some kind of action taken.
You might be able to fight the tracking system if you can pass off your refusal to use it as a "free speech" right, but don't bet on it. Read up on "Tinker v. Des Moines (393 US 503)" if you're interested in this.
Parent
Outlaws (Score:5, Funny)
Not a big deal. (Score:4, Insightful)
This just doesn't seem like a big deal. Rather than wasting class time doing roll-call, they automate it so that as soon as you walk into the class, you're counted as present. This will help parents and school officials know that students are not missing and are where they should be. Maybe they'll even implement full blown java cards to ensure that only the AV-club students can access the AV room, only faculty can access the faculty lounge and so on. Even better would be requiring the use of a java card to gain access to the school at all. Swipe the card to get in the front door. No more lunatics wandering the halls.
Oh, and most adults have to use these cards in the real world, too. The only difference is that we have to swipe our cards and that swipe usually ends up in a database, logging the time, door and building we entered. The only difference here is that the RFID readers in the door eliminate the need to swipe the card.
I also don't see the big deal with tagging body parts like this. It enforced accountability and I'm pretty sure dead people or someone who no longer has that arm attached to them doesn't much care what happens to it - tagged or not.
Also, any remotely intelligent kid will just wrap the card with a couple layers of tin foil, stick it in their lunch box, etc.
Like I said, I'm a really skeptical person when it comes to RFIDs. I hate the idea of tagging, tracking and cataloging EVERYTHING under the sun. But these two cited implementations seem entirely reasonable.
Don't you just hate it.;.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Don't you just hate it.;.. (Score:3, Funny)
Cop: "Could you give me a description of the stolen property?"
Grad Student: "Yes, you see, she was about 1.7 or 1.8 meters, brown hair, in a black body bag...."
Cop: (WTF?)
RFID Mis-understanding (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, this is an invasion of privacy but this is not what RFID does. RFID is an inventory control method. Almost always, an [unpowered] RFID badge must be swiped within a foot a reader - and even then you sometimes have to swipe it once or twice to get a reading. RFID cannot and does not provide a method of tracking exact locations.
What this article doesn't mention (Score:5, Informative)
"InCom has paid the school several thousand dollars for agreeing to the experiment, and has promised a royalty from each sale if the system takes off, said the company's co-founder, Michael Dobson, who works as a technology specialist in the town's high school. Brittan's technology aide also works part-time for InCom."
Seems more like this is less of a "it's for the safety of the kids" and more of a "let's make money by tagging our kids like cattle."
The biggest danger is mindset (Score:5, Insightful)
However....
The thing about this that really freaks me out is that it might give us a group of future voters who view this level of tracking as "the way things are". I'm someone who considers the Patriot act to be a dangerous step in the direction of Nazi Germany. However, I think that a group of kids just graduating from a school where they wore, essentially, tracking beacons for four year will think that the Patriot Act is downright lax.
Microwave them (Score:3, Interesting)
Zombies (Score:3, Funny)
1) Put RFID chips in body parts
2) Wait for zombies to eat them
3) ???
4) Profit!
@Birth (Score:3, Insightful)
"Its for the children"
My kid would be home schooled if our system here tried this garbage.
Tinfoil obviously rots the brain... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nobody's "rights" are being violated, nobody is forced to take any drugs... Yes, you look like a bit of a dork wearing one, and I am not sure that there has been a rash of elementary kids that have been trying to infiltrate the school.
I am pretty sure that this is not serving any purpose other than enriching the school. How hard *is* attendance anyways? But surely, this is no big deal.
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
If people don't do what is right, then they are to blame, not their parents, not their teachers, not society. If we are to get anywhere as a species, everyone has to be held accountable and responsible for themselves.
Yes, I realize this could be devastating to the law profession, which feeds mainly upon people holding other people responsible for their own foolish actions or lack of common sense.
Parent
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Interesting)
That is because school administrators and teachers are losing their fucking minds. [neoflux.com]
Today you have kids getting suspended for having nail clippers. A kindergarten kid was punished for wearing a halloween costume that consisted of a fireman with a plastic axe. 3 kids were punished for possessing pornography because they had a drawing of a stick figure with breasts and a penis.
When I was a kid, if I was in the wrong my mother woudl have my ass in a blender. If I wasn't wrong, my mother would raise hell at the school.
If the school admins weren't such asshats, the parents wouldn't need to be so adversarial.
LK
Parent
Re:a rant.... (Score:3, Informative)
However, ignorant parents and students often sign these rights away when they receive student handbooks and "behavior contracts" at the beginning of the year. The behavior contract includes clauses about "disruptive behavior" and "classroom disruptions," though no
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
My mother was single.
I don't steal cars and, as yet, I've not had children that I can't support. I'm three units away from a university degree, I work part time as a software engineer and I do a lot of contract work on the side.
And in my opinion, the education system will never teach anybody who doesn't want to learn: whether they have good familes or bad families, it all comes down to the individual.
Honestly, you bitch and bitch like you know what you're talking about.
You don't, it shows: families aren't perfect. You're obviously not in such a situation, so for fuck's sake stop moaning like you're somehow better than these women. You're not. It's not up to you to judge moral values.
People make mistakes. Life goes on.
Parent
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I'm totally for having to government replace parents and personal responsibility in general, too. I just don't know where I'd be today if I hadn't had Big Brother watching every move I made while I was in school.
It's amazing how quickly we've transformed from a country which at least claimed to value freedom, civil liberties and self-determination into one which pleads for the government to come in and run our lives, isn't it?
Parent
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parents that either don't care about their child's education, or ones that think their child is immune to the rules or does no wrong are the real problem with the school system.
Parent
Re:a rant.... (Score:5, Informative)
But they are not the same rights adults are accustomed to. Here's blurb with some of the key cases listed:
"All people in the United States are guaranteed this right by the Constitution. Students, however, do not have this right to the same extent as adults. This is because public schools are required to protect all students at the school. The major aspects of this right are speech and dress. Both the right to speech and dress are not absolute in public high schools. According to the American Civil Liberties Union: "You (students) have a right to express your opinions as long as you do so in a way that doesn't 'materially and substantially' dirsupt classes or other school activities. If you hold a protest on the school steps and block the entrance to the building, school officials can stop you. They can probably also stop you from using language they think is 'vulgar or indecent'("Ask Sybil Libert" ACLU 1998). Public schools can also restrict student dress. In 1987 in Harper v. Edgewood Board of Education the court upheld "a dress regulation that required students to 'dress in conformity wit hthe accepted standards of the community'"(Whalen 72). This means that schools can restrict clothing with vulgarities and such, but they cannot restrict religious clothing: "School officials must accomodate student's religious beliefs by permitting the wearing of religious clothing when such clothing must be worn during the school day as a part of the student's religious practice"(Whalen 78)."
Here's some other stuff:
"Veronia v. Acton 1995
In Veronia v. Acton the issue concerned the drug testing of athletes at an Oregon Public High School. In 1995, drug abuse was a major problem in Veronia, Oregon, and the school district reacted by implementing a policy of drug testing all student athletes. When a member of the Acton family had signed up for athletics in the school district, the parents did not sign the testing agreement. They believed this policy violated their son's privacy. The United States Supreme Court felt that this policy of drug testing was constitutional and that by voluntarily becoming an athlete the person gave up some privacy (Harrison and Gilbert 175). These cases helped all those involved with public high schools know exactly the rights of public school students."
I agree with 2 and 3, though.
Parent
Re:Missing Parts? (Score:5, Funny)
> sick excuse for a human being would steal parts of
> a cadaver???
No kidding. Normal people would take the whole damn thing.
Parent
Maybe you went to school in a prison? (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, how hard is it for a dumbfuck teacher to notice when a kid is missing 2-3 days a week? It is not like we're talking university-style auditoriums of hundreds of students.. a typical HS class side is only 30-45 kids.
Is there really a *need* to automate this? Seems like a waste of money more than anything el
Re:Maybe you went to school in a prison? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Electronically tracking students? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only motivation for this is surveillance for the sake of surveillance: to spy on students in forums where the school knows it would not normally have the right to spy on them. (I am reminded of how I, as a non-USAian, have to provide the FBI with my photo and fingerprints every time I enter the US. That isn't to catch crooks or terrorists: it's surveillance for the sake of surveillance.)
Oh, and by the way, we have always been at war with Eurasia.
Parent
Re:Electronically tracking students? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a basic human system. Students in high school are becoming adults. As such, they need to be given some freedom, and shown that they can go outside the lines a bit as long as it isn't excessive, and still be ok. The world is not out to get them, but if they completely disregard the rules, then they will be in trouble.
This system changes that. Now anytime you step outside the lines, it can be tracked, every story checked. You, from day 1 entering the school, are treated as if you are guilty. Now we are saying to students who enter the schoool: "we know you're gonna screw up, and we want to be able to prove it when you do."
Parent
Re:Electronically tracking students? (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember that public school is about a whole lot more than education... it's also about teaching kids what they should expect from society. I doubt anyone has a problem with students being accountable. We parents all want our kids to stay in school, to learn, to not cut class. But what we're t