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Feds Propose National Database of College Students
Posted by
michael
on Tue Nov 30, 2004 05:55 PM
from the getting-drafty-in-here dept.
from the getting-drafty-in-here dept.
Dore writes "The Department of Education wants to collect personally identifiable information on all college students, including name, address, birth date, gender, race, and SSN. Privacy is assured. The No Child Left Behind Act, which holds primary and secondary schools accountable prompted this line of thinking. Now colleges should be held accountable. If you made it to college, you were not left behind, and further attempts at monitoring citizens should be."
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Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh? Well, that certainly clears things up, no privacy concerns then, its not like anyone bribeable will have access to it...
Re:Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Insightful)
Jaysyn
Parent
Re:Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Insightful)
Here is a two step program to crater your economy:
- Let your primary and secondary education system crater(bad underpaid teachers, promoting everyone, huge dropout rate, prioritize athletics and athletes over academics).
-Drive away all the top flight well educated foreign students and professors America has become so dependent on especially in science and tech.
Al Qaida's plan to destroy America seems to be working pretty well, launch one spectacular attack and let brain dead politicians and law enforcement officers do the rest of the damage as they seek to make everyone "safe".
Parent
Re:Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Insightful)
I can kind of see your point though. America is fast moving beyond the point it needs or wants people who think, reference a recent Tuesday in November.
Its a really big thing lately in the media to cover the religious right as they use their new political clout to try to undo the theory of evolution, geology and science. They forced the people who run the Grand Canyon book store to include a book that claims the Grand Canyon is a few thousand years old and was created by the great flood
America is in for a world of hurt as it continues to rush to abandon science in favor of religious zealotry.
Parent
Several. (Score:5, Insightful)
(2) It feeds our skilled workforce. Many people who are educated here elect to stay. If you agree that top-flight people are worth having around, than this is good.
(3) It facillitates idea exchange. Folks at school learn from each other, sometimes more than fromtheir professors. I can't think of a downside here.
(4) It builds international connections. People who went to school together tend to stay in contact. They make business deals, diplomatic relations, and generally help countries understand each other.
If that really isn't enough for you, look to history for what happens to nations that become myopic. Don't think it won't happen here, unless you're prepared to explain how the U.S. is different from every other empire in history.
Parent
Re:Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Funny)
In America we spend money on vaccines for small pox and Anthrax and we don't have enough flu vaccine.
In America we are going to spend hundreds of millions on a nationwide grid of biochemical warfare sensors.
In America we will spend $200 billion and counting on a misguided war in Iraq instead of on education and research.
In America we overturn the theory of evolution in favor of creationism and try to claim the Grand Canyon is a few thousand years old and was created by the great flood.
I always wondered what it would be like to live in the Dark Ages.
Parent
Re:Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:National Database for Only Foreign Students (Score:5, Informative)
Obviously intended as flamebait, but such a database exists: SEVIS - Student and Exchange Visitor Information System [ice.gov]
The Student and Exchange Visitor Information System (SEVIS) is a web-based system for maintaining information on international students and exchange visitors in the United States. Administered by the Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVP), a division of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), the largest investigative arm of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
SEVIS is designed to keep our nation safe while facilitating the entry and exit process for foreign students in the United States and for students seeking to study in the United States.
To Americans today, "keeping our nation safe" is synonymous with trusting government to act in our best interests. How have so many failed to learn the lessons so clearly taught by our nation's founders, that the government is the enemy of liberty?
Parent
Re:National Database for Only Foreign Students (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorist threats aside, there is a lot of stuff being blatantly ripped off by Chinese students and professional technical people. China is "economically ascendent" (i.e. "becoming a high-tech society") but they sure as hell didn't do it all by themselves: neither did Japan for that matter. We gave Japan their head start after the Second World War but we made no such gift to China
I know a company where a Chinese engineer was hired during development of a significant piece of technology. He worked there until the project was completed, then stole the prototype and flew home to China the same night and gave it to a manufacturer on the Chinese mainland (where it turned out he was still employed.) Frankly, that should have been an international incident, but I assume the management of that company didn't want the embarrassment. I know several other similar cases (I was in and out of a lot of places as a consultant for many years.) Obviously Chinese immigrants to the U.S. aren't much of a terrorism threat (the Chinese engineers I know are generally damn good, but are hardly terrorists), but I certainly do see some of them as being very capable (and culpable) with regard to industrial espionage.
Parent
Re:National Database for Only Foreign Students (Score:5, Insightful)
So get off your high horse, because that is how all industrial nations (except britain, who had the first mover disadvantage...go read your economics books) started.
As to the rest of your xenophobic post...wow, you really don't get how the world works. Or has worked for the past couple of centuries.
Parent
Re:Privacy is assured. (Score:5, Insightful)
The question isn't one of logistics as you seem to indicate, it's one of privacy. For example, it would be hard to collect the names of people who didn't go to a gay pride parade, so therefore they *have to* collect the names (and SSN, and birthday, and...) of those who did.
The real issue isn't "What's the best way to collect it?", the issue is "Why the hell is the government collecting this information?" Universities and colleges already know who their students are, given that students have to enroll. But why should the government start collecting lists? Churches and synagogues know who their members are too, but the government doesn't so let's start listing out all synagogue members. No Jew left behind either!
Parent
... Now that Napster is Gone (Score:5, Funny)
Crispin
renamed (Score:5, Funny)
Good thing the Republicans are in charge (Score:5, Funny)
See! With the Republicans in charge, we can be positive that States and Localities will gain strength and that the federal government's power is limite....oh, wait. Never mind.
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
If that exists and yet does not extend to college level, one has to wonder why this is being proposed.
Also I can't see any real benefits (eg. in terms of missing persons) of this scheme. Anybody would like to think up some?
Let the trouble-makers drop-out (Score:5, Insightful)
As a former public school teacher, I can tell you that by the time they're 16 they're plenty able to cause trouble. And if they want to drop out, it's very unlikely that forcing them to stay in will cause them to learn anything. The only reason to keep them in would be as a public-funded baby-sitting service, and I can think of better ways to spend our tax money. Sometimes I think that we should let them drop out in 9th grade (I taught 9th grade physical science - a general/remedial level science course - my last year as a teacher, and it was no coincidence that it was my last year. I have a tremendous amount of respect for teachers that keep at it year after year after year.). However, some of the kids in 9th grade, might actually straighten up. Those who are 16, however, are very unlikely to straighten up by 18. Once they've been out in the "real world", there is a slightly greater chance that they will see the errors of their ways, in which case they can go to night school and/or get their GED.
Parent
Re:Let the trouble-makers drop-out (Score:5, Insightful)
Those who are 16, however, are very unlikely to straighten up by 18
Yeah, I had a public school teacher like you when I was 16...that's why my kids will only ever go to a private school. You have failed every student you have ever thought that about. Thank god my parents recognised the damage that attitude can have and yanked me out of public into private...where my grades soared, I went from D average to B's and A's and got accepted to Uni studying GeoPhysics...and so on and so on...I'm now extremely successful, however I'd probably be pumping gas now if my parents hadn't gotten me away from teachers with attitudes like yours.
Parent
Re:Let the trouble-makers drop-out (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was 16, I was about ready to drop out of high school. I wasn't learning anything useful, most of my teachers had bad attitudes, and I couldn't take any classes that actually interested me (apart from a visual art class with an excellent teacher). I had a 1.0 GPA my last semester at high school (3 0.0 and 1 4.0 averaged).
Fortunately, my state has a program that allows HS students to do their last two years at a community college, so I was able to learn about things like astronomy and logic, and take government and sociology courses from teachers who were interested in the subjects and knew how to teach them well.
I never got a four-year degree, but on my way towards one I got into IT and now I work as a systems engineer at a Fortune 500 company. I start school again in about a month (after a six year hiatus) to earn a BS and possibly go further in another field.
There are a lot of 16-year-olds who are genuinely uninterested in learning, but many of the people I knew had been failed by the public education system the same way I would have been without that community college program.
Parent
Whoah! (Score:5, Insightful)
Granted not a lot of people finish college, but a great deal start.. and the idea that the government feels the need to keep track of me in yet another way is outragious..
By the time we get to college, we're in charge of making sure we succeed, not the government
Re:Whoah! (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
let's include professors, too (Score:5, Interesting)
Colleges Accountable?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
No further legislation needed. (Also keep in mind we're talking about college students-- legal adults. Creating a No Child Left Behind-like database has more legal problems to consider.)
Re:Colleges Accountable?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, I'm normally one of the people saying 'so what', but in this case I don't agree with a national database that includes names and social security numbers. Instead just have a database that anonymously tracks which HS a student came from and what grade they've achieved in college, as well as if they have a degree or not. Much simpler database and it'll achieve all of the same things.
Parent
are getting for our investment in higher educatio (Score:5, Insightful)
public school? i.e. community colleges- defensible.. private institutions? none of their damn business.
Random sample (Score:5, Insightful)
If the government doesn't go for this proposal, I'd like to see a better reason for tracking students.
Unnecessary data! (Score:5, Informative)
Under the new system proposed by the National Center for Education Statistics at the Department of Education, each student enrolled in college would have a computer record that included name, address, birth date, gender, race, and Social Security number. It would then track field of study, credits, tuition paid, and financial aid received and would follow the student if he or she transferred or dropped out and later reenrolled.
Why does name, address, birth date, gender, race and Social Security have to do with this obstensible goals? An anonymous survey could be effective to gain whatever information they can possibly hope to gain from this system. They seem to be concerned with transfer students, but these could just be tracked without private information being encoded in a databse! This is a rediculous move, and probably just another move for a more complete database of civilian's private information.
Perhaps some staticians could shed some light on what this study hopes to achieve, and why personal data is required?
Kind of makes you wish... (Score:5, Insightful)
Fine... (Score:5, Funny)
1. It's searchable by name, location, major and gender
2. It includes pictures
3. You can rate each person
zerg (Score:5, Funny)
NCLB is an absolute failure (Score:5, Informative)
He loves teaching. Through high school he coached younger kids in soccer. He has a rare gift for it.
He hates his job. There aren't books for the kids. There isn't paper for the copiers - unless he buys it. Basically, he has no materials for the majority of the classes he teaches.
His school is being punished by NCLB. They have reduced funding because they have not met minimum test score standards. Why haven't they? Because their students come from poverty and the school itself is underfunded. There are four computers in his classroom - no mice or keyboards, all broken and never replaced. How can you expect the students to be serious about education when you're not serious about giving them one? They know its a joke - they know rich kids go to schools with books and paper and they have nothing.
If you fail to meet minimum testing standards, you are given a bit of money, as any NCLB proponent will point out. This money is for basic math and reading courses. Funding for nearly all other programs is revoked. This means that teachers begin teaching for the test as to try to get their funding back. Teaching for tests is short sighted and ultimately doesn't teach the higher order thinking needed to advance in life.
He is not a teacher but a disciplinarian. He is forced to spend his time with problem students rather than helping and rewarding the good ones.
While NCLB has the nice ideal of encouraging better schools, it ultimate takes money away from those that need it the most. It further emphasizes the lack of access to education that the poor suffer.
This might be semi off topic, but I think people should know waht NCLB is like from the inside.
This is the natural outcome (Score:5, Insightful)
Makes Perfect Sense (Score:5, Insightful)
I think I started out to be sarcastic with this. The more I look at it, the less sure of that I am.
no professor left behind (Score:5, Funny)
Obligatory suggestion for new law (Score:5, Funny)
Coming soon to a Congress near you! (Only available within the US.)
What if... (Score:5, Funny)
Dear Federal Government (Score:5, Funny)
Sincerely,
Jame
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
There is a prototype here [mit.edu].
- shadowmatter
Parent
Re:What? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:What? (Score:5, Funny)
We could call it "No Behind Left Behind."
Parent
Re:goal (Score:5, Insightful)
From the article: "The idea, proposed by a research wing of the Department of Education, is designed to improve federal oversight of students' enrollment rates, graduation rates, and tuition. Currently, that information is provided only in summary form by universities, leaving gaps in national college statistics. When students transfer from one college to another, for example, they show up in the federal rolls as dropouts."
Apparently, metrics on student graduation rates are the lifeblood of our government. We can't tolerate even small inaccuracies.
(Of course, we can tolerate small inaccuracies in, say, our voting system. But that's just a different story.)
I can't imagine any legitimate purpose for this. Even if you argue that the government allocates public university funding based on education rates, the aggregate metrics generated by each institution should be more than sufficient. If a university isn't providing accurate data, then you need to force it to comply - not usurp its job with hideous spyware.
I imagine that the real purpose is to track foreign students at American universities. In fact, the government does have a legitimate purpose in monitoring, say, Iranian exchange students who are studying nuclear physics. But I can't imagine why they wouldn't bolt that duty to visa enforcement, rather than just brazenly spying on the population.
- David Stein
Parent
Re:goal (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
The goals are several. Read between the lines. (Score:5, Insightful)
What a bunch of stupid responses here. "To improve accountability". "RTFA". Nonsense. RBTL (Read between the lines).
My bet is that the primary goal here is to track down draft-age men and women; specifically those who were smart enough not to enter into the draft database by voluntarily registering.
Another clear goal is to make it easier to keep tabs on dissendents. Colleges are usually the first place where protests happen; so it makes it a lot easier to identify and keep tabs on the troublemakers.
My, the government sure is going all out to gather and centralize all this data about the people it supposedly represents. I wonder what for?
Parent
Re:college not the same as public school (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
It might be worse than you know... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Privacy problems, yes, but.... (Score:5, Interesting)
You'll never have a complete say over where your tax dollars go, but this is one case where I think the inherent systems will succeed in assuring that the worthy receive your contributions. We don't need more restrictive measures put into place.
Parent
Re:Take off the Tin Foil and Think. (Score:5, Informative)
If your college disclosed your records to your parents w/o your consent, sue them.
Before you say "no way", read an overview of the law.
FERPA [ed.gov] From the department of ed website:
"FERPA gives parents certain rights with respect to their children's education records. These rights transfer to the student when he or she reaches the age of 18 or attends a school beyond the high school level."
"Generally, schools must have written permission from the parent or eligible student in order to release any information from a student's education record."
Note that nosy parents is not a valid exemption.
Parent
Re:How about keeping a database of... (Score:5, Insightful)
He thinks its bad in college, wait til he gets out in the real
world and "they" realize he is a work horse, and that is how they
will treat him
The ol' Sled Dog routine as I call it
Anyone that thinks they can off load some job on him will try
it direct and if that does not work they go suck up to your
boss and get him to pan it off on you
I used to have the work hard ethic while in corporate america
but put it on hold eventually in companies where this
pass the buck routine was rampant
Now that I own my own business, I can work hard, and only I am
gonna dump work on myself, and at least I get credit for it
Good Luck to all college students about to enter the work force
Consulting or Incorporation is the way to go , get your
tax deductions up front, and shelter your income
Peace !
Ex-MislTech
Parent
Re:The Government still Pays (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent