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Japanese Schoolchildren to be Tagged with RFID
Posted by
timothy
on Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:18 PM
from the hey-those-things-are-out-of-season dept.
from the hey-those-things-are-out-of-season dept.
oostevo writes "CNET has reported that Japanese schoolchildren in the city of Osaka will be tagged with RFID tags. Apparently this is in addition to the trial program in Tabe that The Register reported earlier, where parents can track their children on their way to school."
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Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Insightful)
Children don't have a "right" to privacy. Their parents may choose to respect their children's privacy if they believe them to be mature enough (and most aren't, even once they are legal adults - although it's often not as much of the parents' business after that).
Parent
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Informative)
In all the countries of the world, except the United States of America and Somalia, they do.
Article 16 [unicef.org]
1. No child shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his or her honour and reputation.
Parent
Re:"Children don't have a "right" to privacy." (Score:5, Funny)
I can't do drugs any more - At my age I have shit to do. I can't go on a 2 day acid binge cos I have to move my car on street sweeping day. Drugs are for kids.
Paraphrased from a piece by the guy in my sig
Parent
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Funny)
Boy am I relieved that the first +5 funny in this comment didn't have anything to do with the "they all look alike" stereotype.
Parent
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't remember how he replied when I asked about the different uniforms.
Parent
Re:Makes sense for Japanese parents (Score:5, Funny)
I wonder if you are both talking about quite the same thing......
Parent
progress (Score:5, Insightful)
In 2 years replace the word 'kids' with 'employees'.
In 5 years replace the word 'employers' with 'shoppers'.
in 9 years replace the word 'shoppers' with...
Re:progress (Score:5, Funny)
Only one will survive.
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Informative)
Battle Royale [imdb.com]
The basic plot is this... students have rebelled against the government and "adults", so the govt invoked the battle royale act. Each year, one class of year 9 school students is shipped to a remote island and told that they have to kill each other off. They're all 'tagged' with exploding necklaces that also function as tracking devices for those monitoring the "game". If any more than a single student remains alive after the final (third) day, all the necklaces explode...
It comes down to whether you could kill your own friends...
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Shoppers will come before full-time, real-time employee tracking- more monetary value than employees and probably sooner than 2 years.
I would be surprised, however, if in 9 years students here are being tracked. I think America's parents are too paranoid to stand for this. I personally have no problem with it, schools in my kids' district are repsonsible (by law, no less) for their whereabouts to and from school. I'd actually find peace of mind in RFID tracking, more so in GPS. Kidnappers and such aren't going to hunt for what they can already see, it's not like some asshole is going to sit in a van looking for GPS or RFID signals when he can look out his window (hey, big news break- kids can be found near schools).
But a school, however, isn't lurking in a car somewhere watching your kids and they're the ones who SHOULD know where their students are, right? If a signal is reported outside of school during hours or worse, if it goes dead, they would know right away and could take immediate action in finding out why the child is not in school.
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes I swear we are just asking for it.
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
That means you'll have to do your parenting the hard way. You know, like the countless generations before you did...
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is exactly why all restrictions on freedoms have and always will start there. THINK OF THE CHILDREN! It's an emotional device that gets people do what they otherwise wouldn't, but it sets a precedent that can't be taken back.
As of right now, high-school students do not have the right to free speech or privacy. For example, a student cannot write anything in the school paper that goes against the school administration's views, and any student's locker can be searched at any time without warning. And while this may, admittedly, help prevent embarrassments for the school system or drugs in schools, what sense of civil rights does this instill in them?
Similarly, if they schools RFID tagging every student, imagine how much easier it will be to get those same people in twenty years to accept a nationalized RFID card/implant.
-Grym
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Freedom of speech and privacy does not mean you have to fund the people embarrassing you. If you want to write things about your school, produce your own newspaper.
As far as RFIDs go, I don't like them, but I can see them as an outgrowth of modern trends - at least in Australia. More and more responsibility is being placed on those looking after children, and less and less authority is given. A school here was successfully sued by the parents of two children who truanted, and where injured in the course of having a rock fight. At the same time, schools are prohibited from and corporal punishment, or removing children from their peers ("timeouts") in case they alienate them from their friends.
I don't know the conditions in the states, nor in Japan, but based on things going on here, all I can say is "more power to them". People who demand other people take responsibility for their own stupid actions deserve whatever they get. Grow up, take responsibility for yourself, and don't blame the school if your kid is a dick.
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
All systems are open to abuse. What happens when J. Random Paedophile hacks the system and can use it to choose a victim?
One day Little Girl will become Mature Woman. Will she appreciate having a RFID tag then? 99.9% of people probably will, because of social conditioning. But what happens when J. Random Rapist or Stalker hacks the system and uses it to choose a victim?
Severe legal penalties already do not stop these people. Why would simply knowing someone's whereabouts stop them? At least we'll know where to go to find the body after the event.
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't be surprised if your son suddenly picks up some amateur dentistry and develops a strong distrust of you if you allow this to happen.
Guess what... I am willing to bet nobody here has a chip in their tooth (unless that charlatan Kevin Warwick is reading) but we're all here! We all made it!
Guess what... no amount of embedded chips is going to stop a determined individual doing what he thinks is a good idea. Thing is, the attacker might also have a touch of the amateur dentist in him, so the attack could be all the more devastating.
How about, instead of tracking your son, how about some parenting? Keep an eye on him, you know? The sort of thing this species has been at for more years than historically recorded, you know?
Parent
Re:progress, but not as we know it (Score:5, Interesting)
(IIRC Most crimes are committed by repeat offenders)
First our pets and cattle, then our children, then criminals, then the rest of us.
A while ago, after reading a newspaper article about some hideous unsolved crime, I mentioned to a friend that we should start putting radiotags on criminals. Man, he hit the roof! Wow. He used a variety of terms to describe this idea, the one that I remember most was 'Nazi'.
Radio tagging people has its merits and can certainly make the world a 'Better Place'(tm), but it is simply too prone to abuse/misuse.
Who would you trust to manage and control the monitoring system? Your government? The United Nations? Your local police department? Your favourite church/religion/cult/sect?
Parent
Re:progress, but not as we know it (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:progress, but not as we know it (Score:5, Funny)
The military.
Parent
Re:progress (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
You know those Japanese kids (Score:5, Funny)
With all due respect (Score:5, Funny)
Try it out.
Oh yeah? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Oh yeah? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:With all due respect (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:With all due respect (Score:5, Funny)
In Japan!
Parent
glaring flaw (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if parents want to know if their kid is down at the pachinko parlour or some such
Stalkers (Score:5, Insightful)
What is going to happen when someone is able to track these kids and it isn't the school?
Battle Royale (Score:5, Funny)
Sounds like... (Score:5, Funny)
Come with us now as we study the migratory patterns of the Japanese School Child.
[Helicoptor flys over a school yard full of children, one is separated out from the herd and tranqualized with a dart, scientist staples an RFID tag in his ear...]
Anime makes sense to me now (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole recurring theme about man and machine? Ghost in the Shell? Tetsuo in Akira merging with all the machinery around him? How many other examples can you name? I've always wondered why that's such a common idea in anime. I have my answer now.
It's because the Japanese think it's a good idea, that's why.
You know, Slashdot is a great place to be a geek. Look at the new technologies coming out, marvel at their application...but sometimes you just gotta say enough is enough.
And I have to draw the line right before RFID tagging my children.
It's impressively geeky, but c'mon guys - sometimes "because you can" isn't the right answer!
Stopping Abduction? (Score:5, Insightful)
kidstuff isn't for adults (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the slippery slope, remember that children have fewer rights than adults. To kids it looks like their rights are just suppressed, because they don't have the power to take it back. But it's actually because they are still learning to be people, when subordination to experience is necessary, and haven't actually developed the inalienable rights inherent in adults. Otherwise kids would have all emancipated themselves already, at latest in the 1960s when they all got money, cars, and TV role models.
It will be important to remember these distinctions when the police states attempt to raise the age of application of these tracking devices, saying that kids don't mind, why shouldn't adults, whose lives are risker. Adults who are monitored become even more neurotic, sources of risk. Monitoring us will make us less safe, as society becomes unhinged from the transferred social pressure. At least watching the increase in deviance, from unfairly implanted kids who are already developed into adults, will give us some data warning us away from general application of the technique.
False sense of security. (Score:5, Interesting)
Current situation: Parent sends child to school. Did they get there? Probably, based on past behavior and other factors, but not necessarily definitely. Therefore, the parents continue to assert controls and recieve feedback (aka nagging and snooping) over time to increase the liklihood of the child going to school and behaving safely.
Proposed situation: Parent sends child to school. Did they get there? Definitely, based on the feedback from the sensors at the school. Parents don't need to check and reinforce behavior (spy and nag), because they can be sure that their little darling is safe at school. Except that only the tag is at school, in their little darling's friend's bag. Little darling is skipping school and is currenly at a bukkake shoot earning some extra coin.
I'll stick with the nagging and snooping.
How Japanese Students Get to School (Score:5, Informative)
Almost no kids in Japanese public schools are driven to school by their parents. It is not against the rules, but is generally discouraged. Public schools generally do not have buses, though some students will take a bus if their parents can afford it and they live far from school. Middle and high school students might bike or take a train, but those are often off-limits for elementary students, who must either walk or come by bus (Kids generally go to the local elementary/middle school, but there are exams for high school, which might require a long trip every day).
In my small rural town (pop. 7000), and in many other places, elementary and middle school students who are walking/biking must follow certain routes to and from school. Teachers are posted at locations along the route to check up on the students. But, they can't be everywhere. The middle school in my town has recently had problems with middle-aged men approaching female students. Students are out in the open for a much longer period of time than in the US and are thus bigger targets.
That said, I don't want to see my students given RFID tags. However, I wouldn't be surprised if it became very popular here. Elementary and middle school students already have tags with their full name and the school's name on it which must be worn at all times. Also, nearly all middle and high schools have uniforms. With all this required attire, it's hard for students to go someplace after school that they're not supposed to be, and this is part of the point. People will even sometimes complain to a school if they see its students doing something they don't approve of. There is already a lot of monitoring in place here, and I don't see this as being a big shift.
Related article -
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle
PS - It's not that important, but the CNET article is poorly written and unclear. Osaka city and Wakayama prefecture are completely seperate places, but someone who knows very little about Japan might think that Osaka city is the small "town" in Wakayama where the RFID tags are being tested. Anyone have a better article?
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
This argument is such a fallacy. Why don't we encase our children in 'Nerf'? After all, then they would just bounce off of cars when they run out in the street.
If it saved one child, it's worth it right?
Parent
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Funny)
If it saved one child, it's worth it right?
That would be worth it for the entertainment value alone.
Parent
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Funny)
Because that would ENCOURAGE kids to run out into the street so they could be hit by cars.
Parent
It's a tad different (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, kids are under adult attention a lot of the time. Still, I cannot dismiss this as just a "more efficient method" as you do. Is torture just a more efficient method of interrogation? Efficiency is not a justifying dictum, just a bonus.
That's your choice. Me, I do care. I'm not a totally paranoid tinfoil-hatter, but I have purposely avoided owning a cellphone and intend to continue doing so until it becomes an absolute necessity (if it does). And even then, I doubt I'll keep it with me all the time, much less on. I don't want to be reachable or trackable 24/7, that's not human nature, or at least not my nature.
Parent
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
You wouldn't mind that, would you?
Parent
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Human society has a nasty tendancy to slip from what may be a clear defined goal (Keep kids safe by tracking them) towards something that's similar where the logic matches fairly close (Keep people safe by tracking them). However, at the same time, you run a higher risk of abuse of such information. While this is something of a straw man argument, consider what the Holocaust would've been like if the leaders of the country could find every member of the Jewish community, hiding or not, because they were wearing tags?
Personally, I'd almost rather teach my children self defense and how to handle unknowns in the world, than to rely on a removable tracking tag for their "safety". They'll be better off for knowing that.
Parent
Re:People may complain but.. (Score:5, Informative)
Media attention to the contrary, kidnapping isn't that common, and when it does occur it's usually done by a parent or relative. The introduction of Amber Alert programs has greatly increased media coverage of kidnappings; an unfortunate side effect of this is a mistaken perception that kidnappings are common and increasing occurrances.
Banning school athletics programs would save far more children's lives. So would banning automobiles, eliminating all foods that include potential allergens, and placing all children in gated institutions until 18, just to think of a few examples.
Maybe things are different where you live, but everywhere I've been, children who are prevented from learning how to handle risk tend towards one of two extremes. Either they react by doing incredibly stupid things (unprotected sex, reckless driving, etc.) and tend to get hurt, or they have no idea how to handle adult risks and responsibilities once they grow up and are no longer safely ensconced in bubble wrap.
I do realize that when people have children, the genetic imperative hijacks behaviour to varying degree. Maybe this made sense back when society was simpler, risks more easily understood and addressed, and the capacity for smothering and control limited. That does not make it a rational or effective strategy for raising children to be functional adults in today's society.
Patrick Henry did not learn the courage to utter "give me liberty or give me death" by being raised by parents whose mantras were "think of the children" and "if it saves just one child...".
Parent
Seems like a good diea (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:As bad as it seems, as a parent I can understan (Score:5, Insightful)
The odds of being kidnapped (in general, of course if your area has higher stats, then my arguments change) are so low that this sort of thing doesn't do a lot of good. The odds are very high, however, of RFID tags being used for undesirable purposes (unless RFID is well-regulated with regards to privacy, which seems unlikely at this point).
We have:
1. A dubious benefit.
2. A certain detriment.
In complete seriousness, if my parents had tagged me in this way, I'd be very upset with them. I could forgive ignorance on their part (them being fed the line that this is a good thing, and that there are no drawbacks). I could *not* forgive them if they did this with full knowledge (not that I'd disown them or something, just that there would always be this one issue that, regardless of how good our relationship is, I could not forgive).
Now, in Japan the culture is quite different. This doesn't strike me as being too terribly unacceptable there.
Parent
Re:Light on Details (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, I'm not joking at all. If you've been carrying an RFID tag as long as you can remember, requiring it by law won't seem like a big deal at all. Laws that take away freedoms are preceded by education campaigns to convince the public they want to give the freedom up.
Parent