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Massachusetts' Big Brother Tech to Watch Taxpayers
Posted by
michael
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 02:01 PM
from the be-good-for-goodness'-sake dept.
from the be-good-for-goodness'-sake dept.
rocketjam writes "The Boston Globe reports that the Massachusetts state Revenue Department has launched a new technology offensive which strives to piece together all the stray bits of financial information about individual taxpayers that is contained in various public databases in order to catch tax cheats. The databases have been around for years, but technology has only recently enabled the state to assemble and review the information in a time-efficient manner. The so-called 'Discovery' initiative is already bringing in an additional $1 million a week. While denying the state is playing 'Big Brother', the Revenue Department Commissioner, Alan LeBovidge predicted the state may eventually be able to track so much financial information on individuals that the state could complete the citizens' returns for them."
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Good!!! (Score:4, Funny)
I, for one, welcome our new, um..... well, overlords.
Re:Good!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the state of your boy, Mr. John-I-was-in-Vietnam-but-I-don't-use-botox-did-I
Where he is currently the Junior Senator.
Where he was once Lt. Gov.
Trying to blame this on Bush is like trying to blame Mike Tyson for the price of tea in China. But don't let that stop you from hating Bush so much you don't care who you vote for.
Parent
Where is his ... (Score:4, Informative)
And why did he stop taking physical exams 3 years before the end of his service? He was supposed to take one every year to coincide with his birthday. Bush passed an exam May 15, 1971, but in the summer of 1972 he refused to take one, and lost his flying status because of it. In the summer of 1973 Bush was still serving in the Guard, but no records exists to prove he ever took a physical. In fact, there's no evidence that in the 42 months between May 1971 and the time he officially discharged on Nov. 21, 1974, Bush ever took an Air Force physical.
His failure to take the physical in 1972, and his subsequent loss of his flying status, should have triggered a disciplinary review, copies of which would be contained in Bush's military file. But none exists. Where are they?
And why, after the government spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to teach him how to fly, did he apply to be transferred to an Alabama postal unit?
What's that sound? That's the sound of AWOL.
Parent
Re:Good!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
The Bush administration has exactly what effect on state government, again?
(Or, since this is Massachusetts we're talking about, perhaps I should say "commonwealth government" instead.)
IMO Bush is indeed a bad president, but it's reactionary and irrational to blame his administration for EVERY change in government that you don't like.
Parent
Re:Good!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
This time, they're just being more technical about it...kinda scarey though...
Their logic is backwards from the article tho. It says to the effect, 'if you don't want more taxes..pay the ones you owe'
I'd say...if you had more reasonable taxation...we'd be more willing to pay them....but, losing 30% or more our of my paycheck...is ridiculous....and that's just payroll taxes. Then sales tax, use tax, phone tax, gas tax, tax on cable...etc.
Enough is enough I say...
Parent
Re:Good!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Get a grip, Bush-bashers. What the Bush administration is doing was already happening all around the world before G.W. wet his first diaper.
Parent
Re:Good!!! (Score:5, Informative)
Which means that Massachusetts is leveraging federal law how exactly?
Parent
hate to defend the Unelected One but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Also remember that both Democrats and Republicans gave us the Patriot Act and its spawn - while Ashcroft (and by consequence GWB) can take the blame for some of its misuse, they didn't give themselves this power - our elected representatives did. Something to remember come November.
Parent
What about corporations? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What about corporations? (Score:4, Interesting)
In the mean time, they're hitting the consumers, and the article makes it look like the online-shopping-is-tax-free 'feature' is coming to an end:
Separately from the Discovery program, the state is also gathering information from other sources to track down tax leads. Most states now share with each other the results of their audits. North Carolina, for example, might audit a furniture manufacturer and get a list of customers to whom the company shipped a chair or a sofa without collecting sales tax.
North Carolina could share that list of customers with other states so they could track down those residents who bought a piece of furniture but didn't pay use tax on it. The same sharing of data goes on with purchases of jewelry, furs, and virtually anything else that's taxable.
Massachusetts is already demanding that shipping companies like United Parcel Service and Federal Express share the names of individuals who receive shipments of cigarettes from out-of-state companies. The state has collected $162,000 in cigarette excise taxes this way over the last year.
The law already says that buyers should be paying sales tax, but it's so silly that most people never do. This software could start enforcing that, creating a huge burden on everyone. Quite unfortunate.
Parent
Re:What about corporations? (Score:5, Informative)
how fscking hard is this to understand - rich people that run companies give jobs to average joes... its not a gawddamned hard concept, people. I work for rich people, and i'm cool with that. if they weren't rich, they couldn't pay me.
btw: california staved off $56 BILLION in new taxes last year - only because of the Republican 2 state senators and 6 state house reps that comprise the delta between what's necessary to pass new taxes and to kill off new tax bills...
let me repeat that...
the Cali legislature tried to pass $56 BILLION in new taxes - in one year - and 8 people stopped them. Our state's budget last year was just under $100 BILLION. It would have been $156 BILLION if not for 8 people.
holy shit, batman.
with a proposition (56) to kill off the requirement for a 2/3 majority to raise new taxes, and the teachers' unions putting out ad after ad claiming 56 is "good for California" - we should be dead in the water by 2006, and the only guy making money will be the U-Haul guy that drives the empty trucks back from Nevada, Colorado and Texas.
Parent
Re:What about corporations? (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, don't underestimate government budgets. That could be new roads, infrastructure, etc... They have to hire people to do that. So that $56 billion could partially eliminate that traffic jam you have to deal with, keep the calif. fires more under control, etc.. $56 billion is a lot of people working when they are only being paid $40k and less a year. Mind you, not all of that would go to that, but that's a HUGE boost to jobs. And companies need work, and many companies work for the gov't.
But yeah, jobs have to come from either the private sector or the public sector. When people are squirreling it away(like the people benefitting from Bush's tax cuts), that money doesn't create new jobs.
Parent
Complete the return FOR them? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Complete the return FOR them? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Complete the return FOR them? (Score:4, Funny)
The 1040 is only two pages long. Of course, each line in that page typically requires the filing of a nother two-page form, or the filling out of a 40-line worksheet, that isn't even part of the forms.
(The 1040, unlike the Canadian forms, is a triumph of style over substance. I'm sure there's a bureaucrat somewhere that gets told to make sure every tax form is two pages long -- but because Congress didn't say anything about the complexity of the calculations that make up each line on the form, every line gets linked to a separate form. Talk about user design.)
> I hear the IRS rapes your wife, sells your children, and burns your house to the ground for anything more than 10 bucks.
You heard incorrectly.
Your wife only becomes eligible for the VIP (that's "Voluntary Impregnation Programme") treatment if you're a Head of Household who fails to timely file his Form 6969, ("Voluntary Declaration of Seignieur's Rights With Respect To A Spouse") and form 6868 ("We Do You Instead And Your Dependent Children Each Owe Us One"), unless said dependent children each filed, in triplicate, Form 7272 ("With Three Fingers Up Your Ass") for the four preceding tax years.
Geez, don't you people read your Revenue Bulletins and Interpretation Bulletins that get published during the first week of April? Just because the Revenue Bulletins aren't available at your post office doesn't mean you can't get them on the web, or subscribe to the IRS snail-mail mailing list for them. As the IRS explains repeatedly, the US tax code is based on a system of voluntary compliance. Ignorance of the law is no excuse!
Parent
Interesting (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Informative)
The Bible contains so many contridictory and mutually exclusive passages that, with a little selective quoting, you can find support for just about anything from universal brotherhood to wholesale genocide.
Parent
Riight. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
I suppose they think they can include the $20 my wife's employer paid me in cash the other day for fixing one of their computers (it was a pretty minor problem). Granted, $20 doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things - but it is still possible, using greenbacks, to make one's financial transactions very hard to track. Consider people who receive paychecks instead of direct deposit, cash their checks at the grocery store, and keep their cash on-hand. How well do you track that?
Re:Riight. . . (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Riight. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Riight. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm so sick of hearing the "nothing to hide" argument. I don't think most people really understand what it will be like to live under constant government monitoring. We'll have to not only obay the law, but a secret set of rules to avoid being accused of breaking the law.
Parent
Re:Riight. . . (Score:5, Interesting)
Sez who?
The year I quit my job and went back to grad school I was paying about $600/month rent and $3000 for classes, and I made $6000 that year.
It's call savings. I saved money from my three years of post-college work, allowing to me to live off savings that year. It's none of the government's business if I saved the money in a bank (on the books) or a mattress (off the books). I shouldn't have to prove anything to any investigator.
Parent
Re:Riight. . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not?
The law of the land is that we pay part of our income for our government. If you're being a jerk and hiding your money so it has no paper trail, why shouldn't you have to prove that you're not simply not paying your taxes?
Even if you keep money under your matress, you should keep a record of how MUCH you have--if nothing else, then for sound fiscal responsiblity, notwithstanding the government and insurance.
Parent
As a friend of mine once noted... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Riight. . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
MA tax forms aren't that hard to auto-generate... (Score:5, Informative)
- Did I want to pay the voluntary 5.85% tax rate instead of the standard 5.3% tax rate? (No!)
- Did I have any use tax items to declare? (Nope, and if anybody asks further I plead the 5th.)
- Would I like some of my tax money to go to the state's Clean Elections Fund? (Sure, why not?)
Beyond those little things, TurboTax could complete my pages of state tax forms simply by porting over the values from the IRS forms that had already been completed. So, since the state can already look at my IRS forms anyway, why not have them compute my taxes for me, and automatically send me the already-completed paperwork attached to the bill or refund?
Re:MA tax forms aren't that hard to auto-generate. (Score:5, Insightful)
>
> doing it yourself, or having a 3rd party accountant or software do it is the way you keep the revenue service honest - true to their own convoluted, overly-complex rules.
Doing it yourself also makes it blatantly clear to you that the tax code has nothing to do with raising revenue, and everything to do with social engineering.
Seriously. With respect to those who died on the Challenger, did we really need Congress to direct the IRS to spend time writing up "Astronauts Who Die In The Line Of Duty" guidelines for the 2003 tax year? Do we really need laws that micromanage our lives to the point that seven people on the entire planet (maybe 6, I'm not sure if the law covers the Israeli, but if he earned that income from NASA, perhaps he also has to dual-file with the IRS) get a tax break?
If the goal of tax policy is the collection of revenue to fund projects that the State has decided to commit resources to, the answer is "no".
If the goal of tax policy is to remind the serfs who is Lord and who is Serf, and that the Serfs had goddamn well better keep in their place if they know what's good for them, then the answer is "yes".
Do your taxes by hand with a calculator. And decide for yourself on the basis of your observations, what the tax code is really all about.
I'm not gonna go Randroid and suggest that taxes should be abolished. I'm not even gonna go with my personal opinion that taxes should be reduced.
As someone who lives in America, the land that spends $200 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR in complying with ITS OWN GODDAMN TAX CODE, I am going to go so far as to say the Internal Revenue Code needs to be scrapped and replaced with something less complex, even if tax rates rise under a new system.
Either the US tax code is radically reformed, or I - someone who pays more in taxes than I spend on all other expenses, including my own food, shelter, and entertainment combined - will fucking walk to any country that'll have me.
Parent
tough call (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:tough call (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
They could complete the returns (Score:5, Insightful)
They'd never accept the liability for doing the returns.
We're left with all the intrusions and none of the benefits.
Am I the only one that wishes the IRS would sent me a summary of what has been reported to them? At least that way I could reconcile *before* signing my name to something.
Article has a typo... (Score:5, Funny)
It should say "The Boston Globe reports that the Massachusetts state Revenue Department has launched a new offensive technology"
Use tax: The most cheated on tax ever. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is, for an individual, it's hard to collect a use tax on most things. Your state can't ask an out-of-state vendor for their sales records because they're out-of-state and therefore not under your state's jurisdiction. They can't really force you to give a true answer because you have the ability to plead the Fifth Amendment if you're ever accused of not paying a use tax you should have.
It's a problem the states have wanted to solve ever since online shopping got big, but there hasn't exactly been a breakthrough. The states that don't have a sales tax have no reason to help the states that do. Tax classifications can vary from state to state, or even county to county or city by city, so computing what tax is really owed is a complex task that nobody wants to do either. So, it's still one of those problems in the unsolved bin at this moment.
Re:Use tax: The most cheated on tax ever. (Score:5, Funny)
PO Box 7007
Boston, MA 02204
Dear John Doe Taxpayer,
Recently we discovered the purchase of equipment over the internet, for which no use tax was paid. Please remit $50 plus $25 in penalties for the following items:
This letter is now a matter of public record. You have 30 days to pay penalties, and back tax.
Sincerely,
MA DOR
Parent
Here's my problem with the use tax... (Score:4, Interesting)
If I buy something in another state with a lower tax, in theory I have to pay taxes to my state to make up the difference. But it doesn't work the other way around. I don't get a refund for buying something in a higher tax state when I live in a lower tax state. If the government(s) don't seem to play fair, but rather to maximize profit, can you expect citizens to do any differently?
Case in point. I moved from a state with 6% sales tax to one with 5%. I had to retitle my car, and if I had bought it in a state with a lower tax, I would have to pay the government of my state the sales tax difference between my state and theirs - but there is no refund for a higher to lower. And this isn't just for people who just bought their cars in another state - I bought the car 2 years earlier.
Parent
Newsflash (Score:5, Insightful)
Most citizens' financial information is already known by the government. Working people pay taxes through paycheck withholding. The only ones who can cheat on their taxes in any significant way are corporations who are basically on the honor system when it comes to paying taxes these days. That's who this kind of system is designed to detect. Don't believe the hype. Working people are being ripped off by corporate tax cheats. The tax burden is being shifted to the middle and upper-middle classes while the elites get off scott free.
Re:Newsflash (Score:4, Insightful)
Why the hell should we change the rules? Arthur Anderson broke the rules, and they were punished. The existing rules were sufficient. Just because somebody breaks the rules doesn't mean they need to be changed.
OK. If you insist on being naive and dense...
Arthur Anderson was not only providing auditing services for Enron. They were also providing other financial services and consulting. This is a conflict of interest in that it encouraged them to hide information from Enron's board of directors that indicated Enron was cheating. The more squirrelly Enron's books became, the more money AA made by helping them hide it. (Not that Enron's board would have done anything anyway -- they were just as crooked.)
Nothing has been done about this conflict. Auditing firms are still allowed to provide other financial services that they then turn around and audit. That's what needs to be changed, Pollyanna.
Parent
Good thing I only get paid in ... (Score:5, Funny)
Now where the hell is the syrup?!?
You know who's to blame (Score:5, Funny)
I swear, if that place was run by loving, caring democrats, this wouldn't be happening.
You Fools (Score:5, Insightful)
Good work.
I know I'm trolling. No need to remind me.
4th Amendment anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not a lawyer or a legal expert but something about pulling this data together and possibly going on "witch hunts" smacks of "unreasonable search..." Either way, it's scary.
Happy Trails!
Erick
Complete my taxes? Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
The jobs that pay me $200/week (even if I'm only working two days there) will take out almost no taxes becuase they assume I'm making $10,000/year. When I'm paid $2000 for one week of work, I get taxed on the ludicrous assumption that I'm going to be making $100,000/year. Neither assumption is accurate and both leave the government taking out a grossly incorrect percent of my wages in tax anticipation.
Why can't the government compile a system that will help companies to estimate what my tax payment should be not simply by what I'm being paid in the current week, but by looking back over the whole last year and seeing how much I've made this tax-year (through different employers) and what that average income is going to end up being near.
Better yet, why can't we come up with a system that doesn't depend upon weird estimates as the year goes on, but allows you to announce at the beginning what your income is going to be near and then simply take out the percent that that tax bracket would warrant. Then, if you were accurate, you'd have no refund and no taxes do and you could just fold everything up and go home.
Damned taxes.
And now people will begin getting it (Score:5, Interesting)
So, lets say the goverment decides they want to pass a totalitarian-like tax, say something rediculous like internet tax or media tax; they now have the enforcability. So if you decide to feed your kids instead of pay your taxes, guess what happens? Right into the knocker. And if orphanages become overfilled with kids, those kids go into any home that wants them, for any thing.
There are other people who don't pay taxes because they simply can't afford to. They have to pay rent to their slum lord to stay in their nice shithole apartment, or pay for food, clothing, college, car, car repairs, gas, etc. These people also have home buisnesses; a lot of computer technicians have started their own repair shops or networking contracts out of their home, and they live contract to contract and make barely enough to get by. What if they had to make 40% more?
Well, What Did You Expect, Anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hasn't this been the whole point of the last century of effort in the field of computing? The constant push for faster processors? The drive for larger, faster storage, in smaller form factors? The constant advances in memory efficiency and effectiveness? For generations now, everybody has been working for smaller, cheaper, faster, computing--working very successfully at it.
Everybody wants it. Everybody wants their information to be more portable, more accessible. That's what the Internet is for. That's why relational databases were invented. That's why SQL and cross-platform development tools are so important. That's why everybody is lusting after Wi-Fi.
It's all so that more information can move with greater speed over greater distances, and be organized and studied with greater ease. That's what you've been working for. That's what you want. It's what everybody wants. The academics who used the original ARPAnet want it. The government wants it. The Open Source community wants it. Microsoft wants it. Your boss wants it. You want it. I want it.
Privacy was an illusion, perpetuated for millenia by a lack of technology. But the information is out there. It always has been. And you want it to be free. Now, you're finally getting what you want, and it's only going to get cheaper and easier from here.
Everything is going according to plan. Your plan.
Re:Well, What Did You Expect, Anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd just chuckle, shake my head and ignore this, except it got moderated Socre: 5, Insightful.
It's preposterous.
By this logic, "Clean air and water was an illusion, perpetuated by a lack of pollution."
From the tone of the original post, it seems tongue-in-cheek, and it's kind of funny. But for the moderators and subsequent readers who take it seriously? Think hard before you shrug and decide that the concept of personal privacy is merely an illusion -- or else before long it will be.
Parent
Tax Form Internal Consistency Check (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a timely story for those of you filling out your federal tax return for Uncle Sam this spring.
According to my tax preparer, one of the ways they decide whether to audit a particular return is to correlate the adjusted gross income against ZIP code. Generally, areas segregate into rich and poor neighborhoods.
Persons in poor ZIP codes who have unusually high incomes would be singled out (Mr Coke Dealer that wants to avoid Al Capone's downfall - income tax evasion) on the one hand.
Then, people in wealthy ZIP codes with no visible means of support (again, illicit gains and unreported income).
It all goes to show that intelligent data mining can make much better use of the information already available. No need for John Ashcroft to review my frequent shopper card purchases.
Tax Voodoo (Score:5, Funny)
A friend who has a large retail operation on Florida once received a visit from the state. State said, you owe $91K in uncollected sales taxes according to our records. The state was really a single rep who most likely would receive incentives based upon the amount he collected.
Needless to say my friend hired an outside accountant to review everything and look at the claims. With some interesting results.
State agent returns to collect the money. My friend presents him with documentation and says, "we reviewed everything, and looks like we don't owe you $91K, in fact we overpaid $15K, so we need a refund."
Agent looked everything over, and said, he'd drop the claim and they'd call it even.
Coming Soon... (Score:4, Funny)
Automated government wallet-raping, coming soon to a tax office near YOU!.
[Avg Citizen] "Please just tell me how money I have to pay to not be thrown in jail."
Re:Does it find refunds for you? (Score:5, Informative)
The Revenue Department has spent about $3 million over the last two years on the program, which has generated a total of $43 million in new tax revenue and $6 million in refunds. (Yes, the system identifies overpayers, too.)
Parent
Re:The only downside of Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
No it doesn't. It just means the gov't gets more. It is dilussional to think that if they caught all the tax "cheats" that they wil reduce your taxes. Same goes for retailers vs. shoplifters, insurance companies vs. fraud.
As long as there a legitmate system for addressing grievances,...
When they put one in, let me know...ok?
Parent