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MUTE: Simple, Private File Sharing

Posted by michael on Fri Dec 19, 2003 03:13 PM
from the freshmeat dept.
oohp writes "MUTE is a new file sharing network that provides easy search and download functionality while protecting your privacy. It does this by routing all messages through a network of neighbour connections, using virtual addresses and encrypting all the traffic (using RSA for public/private keys and AES for the actual encryption). MUTE's routing mechanism is inspired by ant behaviour. The program is available for Linux, Windows and Mac OS X."
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  • by tcopeland (32225) * <(tom) (at) (infoether.com)> on Friday December 19 2003, @03:14PM (#7767982) Homepage
    ...although CPD [sf.net] was able to find a few duplicate chunks [infoether.com].
  • by corebreech (469871) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:14PM (#7767987) Journal
    ...with the same strengths (privacy) and weaknesses (slow).

    My asymmetrical DSL connection just won't work well with a system like this. I don't have the bandwidth to act as a node that relays data for the sake of maintaining your anonymity. If we all had T3 connections in our home this would be great, but we don't.

    An A for effort though. Implementations on most of the major platforms, with source code, and a neat analogy to how ants work to make it all understandable to the lay audience. Nifty.

    (interesting that this story gets posted the day the federal appeals court forbids exactly the tactic by the RIAA this software attempts to work around.)
    • by gid13 (620803) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:21PM (#7768063)
      I could be wrong, but I think you may be reaching here.

      I've never heard the ant analogy used to describe Freenet. Also, it seems likely to me that you haven't tried it and are just assuming that privacy implies slowness (you may be right, but maybe not). Lastly, if a p2p network is just beginning, it's very likely to be slow due to a lack of users rather than inherent technical limitations of the network itself.
      • by Adolph_Hitler (713286) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:23PM (#7768098)
        actually Ian Clarke in his first paper stated he was inspired by ants.
      • by corebreech (469871) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:37PM (#7768282) Journal
        True, I haven't tried it, but I've read the spec. You should do the same before commenting further.

        The privacy arises from the fact that the file you request isn't sent directly to you but through a chain of other systems running MUTE on the Net. This means that for every file delivered, more than one node is labored with the uploading of this file, and given that, for most people, upstream bandwidth is a rather limited resource, the ultimate consequence will be that the system will be slow as compared to one where the files are sent directly, e.g., FastTrack or gnutella.
        • by Doomdark (136619) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:55PM (#7768478) Homepage Journal
          This means that for every file delivered, more than one node is labored with the uploading of this file, and given that, for most people, upstream bandwidth is a rather limited resource, the ultimate consequence will be that the system will be slow as compared to one where the files are sent directly, e.g., FastTrack or gnutella.

          Not necessarily, in theory (in practice, probably). If routing is done in a way similar to wireless ad hoc routing is supposed to be done, it could just mean that routing decisions are not done end-to-end, but by independent routing (and encrypting) nodes. Thus, there need not necessarily be additional unnecessary nodes; theoretically it could even reach better routing decisions, since it's not (just) your ISPs router trying to optimize based on financial reasons ("we have deal with MCI and thus we'll go from NY to LA and then back to Boston, instead of using direct route"). Your other point (asymmetric connections) is still valid though...

          In practice it is likely that optimal behaviour won't be achieved, esp. in cases where endpoints are reasonably close to each other (in which case guaranteeing anonymity prevents best shortcuts). However, it really comes down to how well implementation works, not that specification dictates bad performance; and also in your usage patterns. If you want to swap files with your neighbour, this would be pretty suboptimal; but that's probably not very common use case. Inter-continental transfer, on the other hand, may not be much less efficient than "direct" connections.

      • by cavemanf16 (303184) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:04PM (#7768576) Homepage Journal
        The "ant analogy" that MUTE is referring to is actually a rather well-known AI programming algorithm technique known as the ANT Algorithm. So although Freenet may be routing stuff through everyone, I don't think it's doing any optimization of the routing, thereby slowing the "travel time" to a crawl over long distances (i.e. lots of nodes). Although I think it would be possible for MUTE to be circumvented, at this time that would be a really difficult task given the following two benefits of MUTE:

        1) randomized initialization of the 'virtual IP' as they call it. This will effectively KILL current companies tracking abilities who are in league with the RIAA.

        2) RSA encryption of the traffic in and out of each node. I wouldn't be surprised if John Ashcroft finds out about this one and really gets pissed, because a native file transfer encryption scheme over a real-time random path through constantly changing nodes makes it REAL hard to track traffic.

        Mind you, I haven't tried MUTE out yet, but I will be this weekend for SURE!!! This tech looks like a real gold-mine for finally moving files around the internet much more securely than current P2P systems. And using an AI optimization system for the file transfers. Nice!
    • by javelinco (652113) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:22PM (#7768081) Journal
      Actually, the software features have nothing to do with what was actually ruled upon today - the RIAA can still get your name and information if the ISP knows your IP address, they just have to file a lawsuit first.

      So, this IS still useful.
    • by BrookHarty (9119) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:30PM (#7768184) Homepage Journal
      With a HASH being calculated for each file, they need to allow multi-part downloads. This would speed up like bittorrent. Freenet doesnt have search results, you need an external freenet search engine.

      MUTE returns search results. The only protection is Virtual Address that is randomly generated on startup.

      The only weakness I noticed, is the "Hints" on which nodes to use, over time, keep a list of "Hints", you could in theory, do packet tracing to the hosts. You could spider, and try to map Virtual addresses. You could limit or block noisy hosts, that might be a simple solution.

      The RIAA would have to go after the high bandwidth NODES, or hosts that site directly next to you. Simple port scan for a MUTE response would validate the user. They would assume you are guilty just for using the program. People need to use legtimate files to make seperate it from piracy only p2p networks. Maybe torrent style downloads with hash checking would do the trick.

      Also, nice to see multiple clients and opensource, and GPL license.
    • by Kludge (13653) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:46PM (#7768980)
      Maybe you should ask why your DSL is so asymmetric.

      Why are asymmetric connections so much cheaper and more common? Data flow is not more expensive one way than the other. Is it the man trying to keep the masses consuming what he dishes out, and keep them from distributing their own content?

        • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 20 2003, @01:35AM (#7772023)
          So why can I get a 1500 down/ 768 up line for a reasonable amount, but a 768 up / 768 down line costs me more, not less, money?
          It's obviously not a problem with physical allocation of the DSL line bandwidth.

  • by garcia (6573) * on Friday December 19 2003, @03:15PM (#7767999) Homepage
    The way they explain things shows that the single reason for this software is to trade files that belong to the RIAA.

    They might have wanted to think twice before doing that.
    • by corebreech (469871) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:19PM (#7768045) Journal
      Yeah, I was struck by that too.

      They should've taken a page out of Bram's book, representing the software as a way to let businesses scale their upstream capacity by exploiting the unused capacity held by their customers, etc.

      Or Freenet, which likes to talk about working to ensure the anonymity of a political dissident in a authoritarian state.

      To just come right out and use downloading a Metallica MP3 as an example of how the software works is asking for grief I think.
    • by chatooya (718043) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:01PM (#7768552)
      You know, we do have free speech in this country (most of the time). There's no reason to shy away from saying that this software is designed to avoid getting spied on by the RIAA. It's perfectly legal to code it and to use it.
  • Ants? (Score:5, Funny)

    by mopslik (688435) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:16PM (#7768009)

    MUTE's routing mechanism is inspired by ant behaviour.

    Rumour has it that the RIAA is secretly developing software that emulates a giant maginfying glass...

  • by Black Parrot (19622) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:16PM (#7768014)


    ...with the text scattered through 100 different letters.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 19 2003, @03:17PM (#7768018)
    CDs from RIAA labels : "What a crappy present!" [whatacrappypresent.com]

  • Strike II (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Doesn't_Comment_Code (692510) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:17PM (#7768026)
    This is a much better approach than Legal or Court based ones. You can always count a crazy judge to screw things up. But good hard encryption and hidden internet paths are a much larger stumbling block to the likes of the RIAA, which is on the whole, technically incompetant.

    Even IF they win the court battle with ISP's (they just took a hard knock in the last court case) there won't me much left for them to do if their ability to track is lost.
      • Re:Strike II (Score:5, Insightful)

        by knobmaker (523595) on Friday December 19 2003, @07:06PM (#7770171) Homepage Journal

        this program's killer app is in evading law enforcement... copyright and homeland security implications be damned.

        Oh for heaven's sake. Do you really believe that terrorists are using P2P to transmit secret plans? Why in the world would they do this? The thing about P2P is that you can't really control who gets your files. Does that really sound like something that would appeal to a terrorist?

  • by tuxette (731067) * <tuxetteNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday December 19 2003, @03:18PM (#7768036) Homepage Journal
    All I got was a 404 when I tried to find the Crowds homepage (AT&T research labs), but it was one of the privacy-enhancing technologies I looked at while doing my thesis. It's a similar concept with connecting to many different nodes than directly with who you want to communicate with, download files from, etc.
  • by cluge (114877) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:19PM (#7768054) Homepage

    The RIAA hasn't learned that necessity is the mother of invention. While they try hard to shove substandard products down our throats (oh yeah I'm sorry, the last Brittany album is a "work of art", my bad") we try hard to pick the weat from teh chaff. Lets face it, if I could by an album with at least 5 good cuts on it, I woulnd't be spending my time taking the albums I own and making MP3 version of just he "good songs". If the Recording industry even paid the artists what they agreed to I might feel guilty about the occasional MP3 download. Since the recording industry has a regular habit of screwing their "artists", I don't.

    PS: RIAA - can you prove that I didn't by that PIL album back in 1986, and am now just D/L ing a legitimate eletronique copy? If the encryption on mute is any good, the answer is no. Thankfully I still have my PIL vinyl in case I get dragged into court.

    AngryPeopleRule [angrypeoplerule.com]
  • by Argyle (25623) * on Friday December 19 2003, @03:28PM (#7768165) Homepage Journal
    I've played Waste [sourceforge.net] the encrypted private network tool started by Justin Frankel.

    MUTE sounds similar. Has anyone tried both? How do they compare?
    • by exhilaration (587191) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:16PM (#7768721)
      MUTE appears to be for large, public networks - networks in which users don't necessarily trust or know each other. Its goal is to mask both the sender and recipient of data, thereby preventing RIAA/MPAA-like organization from cracking down on either. This privacy comes at the cost of bandwidth and performance as data must be routed through various users to remain anonymous.

      WASTE, on the other hand, is for small, private networks in which users know or trust each other. Both the sender and recipient know each other's IP addresses. This is far more efficient as users can download files directly from each other.

      Both MUTE and WASTE encrypt data, thereby making it far more difficult for ISP's to determine exactly what is being transferred. WASTE has the additional benefit of being a "by invitation only" system - you can't get in unless your public key has been accepted by other users.

    • by drinkypoo (153816) <martin.espinoza@gmail.com> on Friday December 19 2003, @05:46PM (#7769529) Homepage Journal

      Only I have more specific questions. The major problems with WASTE are as follows, in no particular order:

      • No access control.
        This is the big one. I cannot specify (by public key) who can access an individual shared directory. Since it already doesn't have any anonymity between users of the network, you don't lose anything by implementing this.
      • Poor encryption scheme. Encryption is at the level of links between nodes on the network, so traffic is not encrypted when it is flowing through a WASTE node. Encryption should be personalized to a specific user. (It appears to be done this way in MUTE.)
      • No collaborative uploading. Since files already have unique hashes it is silly for the network to not automatically search all other nodes (permissions, well, permitting - of course WASTE has no perms, see above) and let you download pieces of files from individual hosts, thus making the network inherently more powerful.
      • Caching is very stupid. When someone rescans their shared directories, I should not have to quit and restart WASTE just because I have caching turned on.

      WASTE was designed to be used without centralized management, but has no access control. This is dumb. It means that anyone on the network can add people who can then download your files and suck up your bandwidth when you would rather give priority to people you actually know and care about. As such it is only useful amongst very small groups of people who are all good friends.

      I plan to test MUTE very soon, perhaps as soon as this evening, but it would be nice to know if any of these problems with WASTE are addressed in MUTE.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 19 2003, @03:29PM (#7768174)
    Dear File-Swapping Pricks,

    You may try to avoid us as much as you like. However, we have other means to discover who you are and sue you into oblivion. We have already employed Miss Cleo and we are willing to unleash her fury whenever we want to! Yes, Yes! Oh god, yes! You cannot hide from Miss Cleo when she picks your name randomly from a phone book.

    We are also aware that there is a great deal of high-speed file sharing going on at your "LAN Parties". We will begin to infiltrate your so-called "LAN Parties", so that you cannot hide from us even from there! So, please ignore the balding lawyer taking pictures of your computer screens.

    FEAR US!

    The RIAA grows stronger by the day. No longer do we just sue people about music, but we have teamed up with SCO to protect their copyrighted information as well. Today, we are officially launching lawsuits against all those that dare share Linux Distros through Bit-Torrent, at "LAN Parties" or over any other sharing method!

    We will continue to sue you until you learn that you cannot live without buying every CD that comes out, even if its not music that you like! Yes! You will give us all your money or you will suffer our wrath!

    Sincerely,
    David Bowie
    and the RIAA
  • Re: Bandwdth (Score:5, Interesting)

    by doublebackslash (702979) <doublebackslash@gmail.com> on Friday December 19 2003, @03:33PM (#7768220)
    One user mentioned a bandwidth concern, I would like a adress it.
    I was working on a project like this, and am now looking into contributing to GNUNet [gnu.org], a similar project. My framework had peers moving data in a similar way as these ants. The way I looked at it was that most of the time I select some files, let them download, and come back later. I'm sure the downloading takes only ten or twentey minues, but I'm at work or busy otherwise. Once I'm done downlaoding my computer just sits there folding [stanford.edu]. The bandwidth is going un-used!
    There is plenty of bandwith sitting idle out there, so long as the ants are clever enough to avoid busy relays noone will really notice the drop in their performance. I think that they would have a similar approach (it seems it would work this way as a concequene of their ant design).
    I sincerely hope that one of these true P2P private networks takes off in a big way, till then I will support them in every way I can.
  • by ThosLives (686517) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:58PM (#7768516) Journal
    This reminds me of an interesting bit of educated fiction I read about information passing methods used in intelligence communities (i.e., spy rings). The problem with this type of system is that you will always know the source of the (in this case) file. So, if you want to get the person sharing the file, you just back up the tree from anywhere. For instance - once you knoa a packet has stuff that you don't want sent, you can just back up the "sent from" arrow-tree and arrive at the sender, then send your cops or whatever to the point of entry. However, you have no way to locate the recipient quickly. This is NOT a Good Thing in some peoples' books, to be sure. The most secure information trasportation mechanism is the double-blind drop: the info source drops the [message] at some location, then the recipient picks it up from that spot. The recipient and sender do not know each other. (In spy rings, that means if one of them gets captured, the other one can't give info about them - the only weak point is the drop-point).

    For computers, if you really want anonymity, you use encrypted files, broadcast everywhere always, and always listen to every packet (which you have to do anyway to select out yours) and see if it's yours. If it is, you keep it, otherwise ignore it and pass it on. Granted, this will not find the "most direct" route from source to target, but it is the most secure.

    Network speed / anonymity are conflicting tradeoffs with the current implementation of the infrastructure.

    Observation: if everyone always captures the whole file - like what if you just copied and stored every single packet that came your way, and everyone did this - then how could "ownership" be enforced? Would this (assuming it's technically feasible) be a Good Thing? I'm not sure I know how to answer that one...

  • by i_r_sensitive (697893) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:09PM (#7768630)
    But, this is the wrong (expletive deleted) approach.

    More importantly, I can't believe how many people seem to think this is a valid approach to the problem.

    First of all, anyone who writes FOSS should not be involved in developing these projects. Quite simply, this project is aimed at abrogating the rights of the copyright holder. If you develop FOSS, you too rely on copyright to protect your rights to distribute your code as you see fit. Why are you helping people to obviate the rights of other copyright holders? Doesn't this seem just a little antithetical?

    Now, before the argument about how developers aren't responsible for how their software is used, well to a point I agree. But, I don't think that you can hide behind this with a clear conscience. Joe Sixpack can't write this software on his own, so if you aren't legally an accomplice, you are ethically and morally. As for the software being used for legal mechanisms, well and good, but that doesn't mean that you could not have built in safeguards to prevent it from being used for unlawful purposes...

    Next, this is not the way to make the point to RIAA. For Joe Sixpack, the complaint is generally about the cost of music and so on and so forth. Well if Sears charges too much for _insert product here_ you buy it somewhere else. You don't go into Sears and steal it. Apparently this is simply because to do so means running a high risk of getting caught. So because the chance of getting caught is lower, that somehow justifies theft? Because that is what it is in the end. Rather than steal from RIAA, deprive them of income by lawful means, spend your money elsewhere. With all the artists in the world, I guarantee you can find some what create music you like, without having to resort to theft.

    RIAA has proven that they will resort to the courts and legislation as their first considered reaction. Since most folk seem to abhor the legislation RIAA has had there hand in to date, why are you fueling that fire? Do you really think RIAA is going to relent? As long as you continue to abbrogate their rights, they will continue to lobby for more and more legislation. If you choose other alternatives, RIAA does not have a leg to stand on, what are they going to do, get Congress to pass a law forcing you to buy music only from their members? Not likely. If you vote with your dollar instead of voting by compromising your morals, perhaps some of those member organizations will reconsider their membership. But as long as people circumvent their rights, and deprive them of revenues thereby they will continue as they have to this point. If people vote to deprive them of income by exercising their other options, RIAA members will have little recourse but to reconsider their policies, which is what you all purport to desire.

    Lastly, I _KNOW_ why I dislike RIAA, and why I won't conduct business with their members. My problems stem more from being a creator as opposed to being a consumer. For those of you who are only consumers, when you choose options that give RIAA grounds to complain, you are quite succinctly stating that you make your choices based on greed, just like RIAA does. It all comes down to the old adage, two wrongs do not make right.

    P.S. Doesn't anyone realize that SCO can point to these software projects as anecdotal "proof" that FOSS developers seek to undermine copy and property rights? Why give them more ammunition in their FUD campaign?

    • by WNight (23683) on Friday December 19 2003, @06:07PM (#7769704) Homepage
      Do you really think the RIAA would change, even if all unauthorized copying stopped overnight?

      DVD region codes were added to protect a business model, not to stop piracy. (I know that's the MPAA not the RIAA.) They didn't pay for laws like the DMCA to stop people copying, that was already actionable. They paid for these laws to force people to watch commercials at the beginning of disks, and keep from importing movies from North America to other regions before the theatrical release. In other words, they wanted the government to pass laws protecting their lazy business models. "We don't want to spend to money to make the product available in a timely fashion - please prevent anyone from filling this niche before we get to it."

      The RIAA is just as scuzzy in different ways. They pay the radio stations to play their music, but they also provide extra incentives for stations that only play RIAA content. They're actively involved in shutting out any competition, they complain about how expensive their business is and how they can't afford to pay artists much, yet the music industry is fantastically profitable - they complain when the industry doesn't keep growing at the expected rate. They use accounting tricks to make it appear that they lost money, yet if you believe their figures they should be billions in the hole, not incredibly rich.

      That's why I don't feel sorry for the effects of this - they could have played fair and they'd have gotten much more respect and cooperation for everyone.

      As to why I feel it's fair to use a copyright (the GPL for instance) to protect code designed to break copyright it two-fold.

      First, we must be free to break the law, or uphold it, or we have no freedoms. Many times, the actions seen as 'right' in a historical context have been illegal. The Boston tea party, the American revolution, the underground railroad, the underground railroad in Nazi Germany, the French Revolution. Some of these were undertaken for no more than financial concerns - the American revolution for example, but it ended up allowing a nation to self-govern.

      The point is that freedom requires the freedom to do the wrong thing, and that that wrong thing may end up being right in retrospect. We can't allow a circumstance where people aren't allowed to tinker with their belongings, as is currently the case with DVDs. To tolerate this is to tolerate much greater future injustice.

      Second, while I respect the stated intention of copyrights, "to encourage creators to create by providing a financial incentive", I see that this isn't free to society. Providing an unnatural monopoly (Unnatural in that it's natural to see what someone is doing or saying and incorporate those actions or words into your own. Ideas flow naturally.) costs society. We're intended to get "paid" for this by the new works being created which will eventually enter into the public domain.

      Copyright law as it stands today is untrue to those stated goals and unfair to one half of the equation - the citizens who pay for these protections and yet see absolutely no benefit. Current copyrights last so long that nobody who is alive today's children will be alive when the copyright on this post expires. How is this supposed to "give back" when you could be slapped down in court for quoting more than a line, even in direct response to me? The protections are too long, the punishments for violation are unreasonble, and the agreement is getting even more lop-sided.

      For these reasons I fight against the modern view of copyright as the divine right of big corporations to borrow any pre-existing content, yet forbid everyone from even thinking of basing anything on their content.

      I'm not anti-copyright, nor are most people, but we are anti-overboard-american-copyright-and-dmca.

      I'm not rich, so my voice on this issue is worthless in Hollywood and in government. I'm one person, and one vote (unless I get a job at Diebold), so nobody cares what I have to say. I have to act, and if that req
  • Netstat (Score:5, Insightful)

    by visgoth (613861) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:12PM (#7768659)
    Say for instance I have a Metallica mp3 being shared out. What's to stop the RIAA from just downloading said mp3 and then using netstat to see who is sending them pieces of it? After that they could try to sue everyone who's providing even a small part of the whole mp3, couldn't they?
    • Re:Netstat (Score:5, Insightful)

      by SydShamino (547793) on Friday December 19 2003, @05:02PM (#7769137)
      Well, they could sue their own ISP, since it provided all the bits to them.

      Of course, the ISP didn't know that it was transferring Metallica.

      It could sue every ISP that delivered a bit.

      Of course, those ISPs didn't know that they were transferring Metallica.

      It could sue every user that passed a bit.

      Of course, those users didn't know that they were transferring Metallica.

      ---

      There really isn't a difference between any of the above examples, legally, unless any layer KNOWS that they are transferring material illegally. And the users can claim that THEY only trade bootlegs of Pearl Jam live sessions, which are just fine. It's not their fault that others use the system for other songs.
    • Re:Netstat (Score:4, Insightful)

      by elviscious (681985) on Friday December 19 2003, @05:21PM (#7769324)
      The same thing that stops the Post Office, UPS, or FedEx from being sued when someone mails anthrax.

      First of all the packets are encrypted (or wrapped up in a box if you will). The node doesn't know what it is. He's just doing his job. Would the RIAA try to sue the node.... maybe. But who is responsible for me downloading mp3s over a vpn from work? Yeah, me. I find it hard to believe that my ISP, my works provider, and anybody in between is responsible.

      2nd, this medium will be presumed innocent for transfering anything. Can you transfer the new Lord of the Rings movie? Yes. Lots of mp3s? All you want, and more. Can I transfer just about anything?! Absolutely, and this is the catch. I can transfer anything. Good or bad. Legal or not. Once that is established, the RIAA or whoever else can only concentrate on the two endpoints, and them only.
  • by henrypijames (669281) on Friday December 19 2003, @05:16PM (#7769278) Homepage
    This is interesting. MUTE is created and coded by Jason Rohrer, the same Jason Rohrer who created and coded konspire2b. Now what is the relationship of these two programs, particularly from the view of their common author? Is he "dumping" k2b in favor of this all-new MUTE?

    konspire2b came with a very intersting idea, but the implementation was less impressive. Especially the inability to deal with a "passive" Internet connection (behind NAT and/or firewall) is the reason that it hasn't gained a user base as large as it promised. It is simply a fact that many (if not most) private Internet users are using a passive Internet connection nowaday, and the procentage is even growing.

    Now MUTE comes again with a very intersting idea, but as we know, problems of technical details can kill good ideas quite often. Obviously, the concept is in some points similar to Freenet. One of Freenet's biggest problem is, just like k2b, it's inability to deal with pass internet connection. I think this issue may be the corner stone for MUTE, too.

    I am negatively biased against Jason, mainly because the "failure" of his k2b, and especially because of the document he published comparing his own k2b to BitTorrent, which earned quite some protests because many factual "findings" in the comparison seem wrong. To be fair, I must admit that since I am a member of the BitTorrent dev team, my opinion in this matter is biased from the start, although it has not prevent me to try out k2b, and will certainly not prevent me from trying out MUTE now.
  • ISP logging (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Arch-out (710539) on Friday December 19 2003, @05:22PM (#7769338) Homepage
    I am not sure, but is there a reason that ISP's have to keep logs of who used what IP address? If they did'nt then it could make the whole issue dissapear.
    • Re:ISP logging (Score:5, Informative)

      by shostiru (708862) on Friday December 19 2003, @08:47PM (#7770816)
      Just a few reasons:

      1. Because if we don't, we can be fined, shut down, or go to jail. Yes, really.
      2. To stop people from spamming you (intentionally or as zombies).
      3. To identify viruses and inform customers (some of them, e.g. Welchia, wreak havoc with an extremely common brand of routers).
      4. So our upstream providers don't drop us like a rock when we can't handle abuse reports.
      5. For bandwidth metered billing (we don't, some do).
      6. So when customer X calls and says "why can't I connect/get a DHCP lease/get to the web/etc" we can actually help them.
      7. So we can catch and resolve problems with RADIUS or dhcpd.

      If none of the above applied I wouldn't waste the disk space, because it's just not that thrilling to know that user jsmith had IP 1.2.3.4 yesterday at 15:00GMT. Of course, if you're paranoid, feel free to use Freenet, MUTE, or whatever.

    • Re:Freenet. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by corebreech (469871) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:23PM (#7768102) Journal
      I think the big difference is that Freenet lets you push content out into the net, whereas MUTE still works with the standard client/server model where the data must first be requested before being transmitted.

      It's good to have the alternative. It's been awhile since I've checked out Freenet, but one of the fears I had for the system was that it would be susceptible to spam. If everybody took to trading their MP3's using it, for instance, the remedy on the part of the RIAA would be to simply publish terabytes of nonsensical data. MUTE doesn't seem to suffer from this weakness.

      (although there still is the problem of the file you downloaded actually being the file you requested.)
    • by nate nice (672391) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:25PM (#7768128) Journal
      I know what you mean and you shouldn't be modded as flamebait (well, it's debatable) but heres the thing: File sharing networks and a new(er) concept in the way we are implementing them now days. There is a lot of research at places such as MIT (and other up-and-coming, less known campuses) into P2P networks and such. It's a rather exciting field to be involved in right now with new ideas coming up all the time.

      I haven't used MUTE but it sounds like they use onion routing or some derivation of it. To me, that's interesting. Perhaps they are doing something Freenet is not? Then again, perhaps not.

      Anyways, if you're interested in networks, graph theory and have some creative energy then P2P network research may be for you. ALthough most systems we see today are not very practical, they seem to all be trying to head to a certain goal: anonymous, encrypted file sharing. We are seeing the bandwidth costs these have but I digress.

      So, even though we may not practically need another file sharing protocol, it's important people keep working on ideas and implementations so we can move the state of the art forward. I think many of these pioneer systems are laying the groundwork for a whole field of study within computer science as one day we will all have many networked devices that need to share information and the pure client-server approach will just not do it.
    • by melete (640855) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:34PM (#7768240)
      RTFA -- the contents of the packets you are passing are encrypted. The only way to get around it would be for the RIAA to run the node hosting the file AND watch the packets reach your machine.

      But if the RIAA is uploading the file, are you infringing if you download it?
        • by cgenman (325138) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:02PM (#7768566) Homepage
          As a previous poster mentioned, ignorance isn't an excuse for one's actions in the eyes of the law. If you are stupid enough to allow encrypted traffic to pass through a node under your control, with no idea of what exactly you are allowing to pass, expect to face the consequences.

          My ISP might have something to say about that...

        • by pla (258480) on Friday December 19 2003, @05:49PM (#7769556) Journal
          As a previous poster mentioned, ignorance isn't an excuse for one's actions in the eyes of the law.

          "Ignorance of the law" does not mean the same thing as "plausible deniability".

          If congress passes a law making it illegal to twiddle one's thumbs in public, and I do not realize this, then the idea of ignorance not giving me an excuse applies - The fact that I did not know about the anti-twiddling law does not exempt me from its penalties.

          If, on the other hand, I run a shipping company (such as FedEx), no one could reasonably expect me to know the contents of every package I deliver. I have plausible deniability about knowing that I delivered, sone illegal package, and unless someone can prove that I knew the contents of that package and delivered it anyway, I would have no legal liability for its contents.


          The same applies to file sharing and routing schemes such as MUTE uses. If I somehow don't know that trading (some) MP3s online violates the law, too bad, the RIAA can still screw me. If I allow my computer to serve as a waystation for packets, arguably for the same of overall network efficiency, why would I have any responsibility for those packets?

          The word "waystation" gives me another good analogy - Harboring a fugitive breaks the law. Running a hotel that happens to unknowingly have a fugitive staying there does not.
      • by scovetta (632629) on Friday December 19 2003, @03:33PM (#7768229) Homepage
        I don't think it's fair, moral, ethical, right, good, proper, decent, or a Good Thing, but I believe there's legal precedent. I don't think you can go after ISPs, or, say, an entire country if the packets get routed all over the place, but if I give you a bomb and you give it to a terrorist, aren't you just as liable as I would be if I gave it to them directly?
        If you have knowledge that the contents are likely infringing and you transmit them to someone else, you are liable. I believe that "Oh, I didn't know what I was routing" will hold as much water as "But I didn't know that 'share my 40 gig mp3 collection with everyone in the world'-option was turned on"

        Why do you think that you are required to hold the entire file to be accountable for it? If that was the case, then you and your friend could each store half of each mp3 and exchange them back and forth so you never actually hold the entire mp3. No way, it's not going to stand up in court.
          • by pongo000 (97357) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:02PM (#7768560)
            Of course not! You gave me a package that I couldn't open (encrypted) and had no idea what the contents were and asked me to deliver it. I had no idea that you were a filthy rotten terrorist sympathizing commie pinko scumbag.

            I can see why you posted as an AC, because if you really believe this, there are some folks down along the US-Mexico border who would love to use your services. Ever heard of "mules"? They transport "packages of unknown contents and/or origin" across the US/Mexico border. Guess what happens when a mule is caught with a payload that contains illegal contraband? I can tell you that they don't escape jail time by claiming they didn't know what was in the payload.

            It's only a matter of time before the same doctrine is applied consistently when it comes to transmission of illegal/infringing content across a network. Those of you who think Freenet/MUTE/etc. will somehow come to your legal defense might be surprised at how quickly those communities will scatter like leaves in the wind when the Feds come knocking.
    • by Xentax (201517) on Friday December 19 2003, @04:16PM (#7768723)
      Incorrect.

      You don't say *I* have XYZ. You say, "Virtual Address A123B456C has XYZ". Only you know that YOU are A123B456C -- the best your neighbors can do is realize that A123B456C must be close to them, because they have strong hints to route through you to reach A123B456C. Similarly, you can't ever nail down who asked for the file, because you just start seeing packets that say "Z789 wants XYZ". You'd have to be able to sniff a huge part of the network to find out who started asking for it first with any degree of certainty, because a node can't tell if its neighbors asked for XYZ, or are merely relaying one of their other neighbors, or one of THEIR neighbors, etc.

      The trick is that the system NEVER says WHERE A123B456C is, only who to route to in order to get "closer" to A123B456C. When you get packets headed for A123B456C, you (being the owner of address A123B456C) just happen to keep them, and not route them onwards. Even not routing isn't dangerous, because anyone who could observe THAT would just assume that your routing table has A123B456C as closer to the person who sent YOU the packet, and they have you as closer or don't know where it is -- that might tell them that one of you is A123B456C, but it might also mean that you just don't have good routing data either. Impossible to prove, that's the key.

      Virtual addresses, whose owners never identify themselves, are the key.

      And, of course, simply keeping all of the packets for A123B456C when you're NOT the owner of that address won't buy you crap, because you'd have to brute-force-decrypt every at least one of them against to determine the AES key (or the RSA private key, if you can somehow determine which packets were used for the key exchange). The RIAA doesn't have the resources to do that on any sufficient scale to make a difference.

      Xentax
    • Problems with MUTE (Score:4, Insightful)

      by 0x0d0a (568518) on Saturday December 20 2003, @12:18AM (#7771749) Journal
      In theory, mute beats the problem of using queries and traffic analysis to see who's sharing what.

      Mmmf. I'm dubious.

      This sounds like a really neat project to play with (I like to bat around P2P ideas as well.).

      However, I'm going to assume (I can't tell from the routing document) that something here is incorrect.

      The TTL mechanism is UtilityCounter. You attempt to obscure the real TTL by randomly moving it around. However, it's still pretty easy to simply send a number of messages until a TTL range 20 apart is reached. The host distance is then identified. Thus, a map of the MUTE network may be built, though it will take more packets than the GnutellaNet.

      The main concerns I have with the MUTE protocol relate to flooding vulnerability. This is the same problem that GnutellaNet suffers from (and I have been working on in my own time). MUTE, however, is *extremely* vulnerable to flooding, far more so than GnutellaNet, for a number of reasons:

      * MUTE shoves data packets through the MUTE network. GnutellaNet sends them directly.

      * MUTE has phenomenally large TTLs, averaging 100.

      One can probably destroy a massive MUTE network (unless I'm missing something in the routing protocol) with no more than a modem by flooding the network with data transfer packets of 32KiB (the largest the MUTE protocol allows) and bogus to virtual addresses.

      I'd be interested in knowing whether there's an IRC channel for MUTE, since I'd be interested in poking at the design a bit. If any MUTE developers read this, would you point me in the right direction?
    • by throwaway18 (521472) on Saturday December 20 2003, @01:31AM (#7772011) Journal
      >efnet #mute-net

      The conclusion of everyone who is talking in the channel is that this version is not usable due to frequent crashing. We can't tell if the routing works because the mesh constantly changes as clients crash.

      Files are only shared if they are actually in the files directory, it does not search subdirectorys.

      The connection list in the program often shows fewer connections than are actually open.

      To compile on FreeBSD 5.1, you have to change all 'make' to 'gmake' and remove "typedef int socklen_t" and change the path of bash to /usr/local/bin/bash for MUTE/configure.

      This uses broadcst search. It is disapointing that people keep reinventing the horribly inefficient original gnutella. Broadcast search will severely limit the search horizon (and probably overall size) of a mesh. We need a filesharing program that combines anonymity with an efficient search function, the state of the art is a distributed hash table with querys and results sent by UDP.

      It is a pity that this ended up on slashdot now. If this had been announced when a working version is available slashdot might have given it the critical mass of users to get it rolling.

      This has lots of potential and will be worth another look when it is stable