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Caldera Government The Courts Your Rights Online News

Interview with Groklaw's Creator 31

Posted by michael from the labor-of-love dept.
McSnickered writes "Linux Universe interviewed Groklaw's creator and maintainer, Pamela Jones (PJ). It's a great tete-a-tete with a paralegal who devotes her free time to poking holes in SCO's dubious claims."
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Interview with Groklaw's Creator More

Interview with Groklaw's Creator

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  • how we spend our free time (Score:3, Funny)

    by snooo53 ( 663796 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:14PM (#7630571) Journal
    Pamela Jones.... a paralegal who devotes her free time to poking holes in SCO's dubious claims.

    Welcome to the club!

  • SCO/OSS Book (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jte ( 707188 ) * on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:40PM (#7630919)
    Pamela,
    If anyone were in a position to author a book on this topic for the general public, it's you. I hope you'll consider it.
    Good luck and thanks for keeping us wired.

  • PJ's an interesting figure (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:49PM (#7631038) Journal
    PJ may be the highest-profile female member of the Linux community I'm aware of. She's doing legal work rather than coding, but damned if she hasn't done a hell of a lot for the Linux community and public perception during the last few dark months.

    Someone who can come out and say "IAAL, and based on my research this person is in the wrong" is an awfully big deal. The FSF does a lot of legal work too (though in the software world it seems to stick mostly to FSF-owned software...even if it does a lot of nice technology civil rights work), but they don't often sit down and post their analyses.

    The problem is that, while a lot of Linux developers are very smart, logical people, they sure as hell aren't lawyers (Linus: "I just ignore patents, since I really don't like them"). So far, most non-code help Linux has gotten (with the notable exception of documentation) has been paid by companies rather than volunteer, in the spirit of the Linux community. The legal area is one where a helping hand is terribly appreciated.

    PJ is amplified by her Groklaw project. Groklaw tends to be regularly amplified in public awareness by Slashdot. Slashdot reaches people on both sides of the SCO issue (reading IBM's filings sounds suspiciously like PJ's work is helping them out) as well as in the mainstream media. CNN and the AP regularly use Slashdot as an "early warning" system for things that might be interesting to check out.

    PJ is probably currently the single most influential person combatting Linux *legal* FUD. It used to be technical FUD was the only issue that Linux had to worry about, and folks did a pretty good job at shooting it down. Legalisms, however, left folks at a loss, and resulted in massive semiinformed arguments on Slashdot and other forums (which I certainly am guilty of taking part in).

    Thanks, PJ. You've probably done more for Linux's marketshare in the last few months than anyone putting out, say, a VM patch.

    • Re:PJ's an interesting figure (Score:5, Informative)

      by jazman_777 ( 44742 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:16PM (#7631384) Homepage
      Someone who can come out and say "IAAL, and based on my research this person is in the wrong" is an awfully big deal.

      That wouldn't be P J. She says on her site, "IANAL. I am a paralegal, so if you have a legal problem and want advice, this isn't the place. Hire an attorney instead. Research is, however, what paras do, so here I am sharing things I have found in my research."

      • Oops, you're right.

        I suppose what my point is is that her words carry weight (unlike a random posting from someone on a forum somewhere -- ironic, since I'm also arguing IP issues in the VFAT thread right now :-) ). A company is *still* going to check with their lawyers before making decisions that might depend on it, but the general mass of decisions that are affected by legal fears are significantly affected by her work.
        • I suppose what my point is is that her words carry weight

          I knew what you meant, occasionally I change my sig to "IANAL, but I play one on /." Even to see the the string "IAAL" in any form, in any context, on /. is jolting.

    • Re:PJ's an interesting figure (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Demona ( 7994 ) * on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:45PM (#7631725) Homepage
      It was my understanding that Linus does not ignore patents becaues he doesn't like them, but because it is his opinion that engineers and developers who attempt to research patents in the hope of avoiding trouble actually increase their risk of liability.

      • Re:PJ's an interesting figure (Score:5, Insightful)

        by swillden ( 191260 ) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Thursday December 04, 2003 @06:13PM (#7633445) Journal

        It was my understanding that Linus does not ignore patents becaues he doesn't like them, but because it is his opinion that engineers and developers who attempt to research patents in the hope of avoiding trouble actually increase their risk of liability.

        What's really sad is that no one seems to recognize what ought to be obvious to everyone: The patent system is not working.

        The goal of the patent system is to increase the flow of ideas by giving inventors a way to get their ideas out in the open without losing control of them. If the system worked, you should expect to see all software developers searching the patent databases on a regular basis, looking for published solutions to the problems they're trying to solve.

        Imagine:

        Programmer: Hey! I found a patent that describes a perfect solution to our problem. Dude, it's *really* clever, I never would have thought of it in a hundred years and it's a perfect fit. If we can license it for a reasonable cost, I can probably have it implemented and tested in about a month. Maybe less if the patent owner has an implementation he'll license to us. If not, all the detail I need to build it is in the patent publication.

        Manager: A month? That's fantastic! We had a man-year budgeted for researching an approach to that. Give me the patent holder's info and I'll ring him up. Given that it'll save us a bundle and get us to market several months sooner, we can almost certainly afford whatever license fees he wants. Give me a couple of days to see if the deal's going to come together, and then I'll give you the green light. In the meantime, why don't you hit the patent database and look for...

        Instead, the system is so badly broken that developers are advised *not* to look at the patent database for fear of what they might see. And it's not just Linux developers either. Every big software company tells its developers the same thing: "Tell us about anything you invent that might be patentable, but don't bother looking patents up. We have attornies to take care of that. If you write something that infringes, we'll decide how to handle it when the issue arises."

        Have you *ever* heard someone suggest a patent search to find ideas to use? Patents are severely broken.

    • > Thanks, PJ. You've probably done more for Linux's marketshare in the last few months than anyone putting out, say, a VM patch.

      Oh, great, now you've hurt the feelings of all the part-time patchers! This could destroy egoboo as we know it!!

      Seriously, though, I agree with you, but we need both types. I cannot imagine PJ standing up and defending Linux if there weren't dozens of people sitting down and hacking it.

  • The power of peer review... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nickos ( 91443 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @02:55PM (#7631122)
    "The more readers I have, the better Groklaw gets, because no one person is as smart as the rest of the world, and each reader has knowledge and skills to contribute. And they do contribute. That is Groklaw's secret sauce. I don't even worry too much about errors. When they happen, someone notices within the first hour of a story going up, and I can just correct."

    Once again the internet allows the process of peer review to work its magic, only instead of being applied to open source code, in this case it's being applied to legal analysis.

    Bravo Pamela.

    • I don't even worry too much about errors. When they happen, someone notices within the first hour of a story going up, and I can just correct.

      This is the thing that worries me about blogs and other online information sources. Yes, it's true that corrections can (if the poster wants to) be made quickly, but there seems to be correspondingly less concern about getting it right in the first place.

      It's a bit like spellcheck: it helps your spelling, but it encourages you to stop thinking about your spelling.

      • The difference is that we're dealing with the truth, and not spelling, here.

        Exactly - whether it's code or legal analysis we're contributing to, in both cases the project leader can choose between ideas they agree with but had never thought of and ideas which they believe to be plain wrong (which helps them realise what they disagree with). What happens is that the contributors (both right and wrong) are helping the project leader reach their idealistic destination. If that doesn't make sense think of Heg
    • Once again the internet allows the process of peer review to work its magic, only instead of being applied to open source code, in this case it's being applied to legal analysis.

      Isn't peer review illegal in the United States? Sounds like Pamela should get a lawyer!

      (j/k :)

  • Linux/GNU headlong rush (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Oriumpor ( 446718 ) on Thursday December 04, 2003 @03:48PM (#7631788) Homepage Journal
    What I keep seeing over and over again occuring to linux is something that (unfortunately) corporations anticipate. Seeing as how we continually describe the Free software MOVEMENT as a movement and not as an organization it limits the scope of influence Linux can truly have.

    Unless there is a Software Alliance or even a Community Alliance where we throw down our entrenched religious Debates (VI! NO, EMACS!) (BSD! NO, LINUX!) (MANDRAKE! NO, REDH-er FEDORA!)
    and say Screw you software-patent-mandating-closed-source-installing -extreme-License-and-DRM-shoehorning bastards. We are a community and there is no state that governs us all. Who is to say you couldn't run a CVS tree with a published SSH console to VIM and run all your coding on that little gun platform offshore the UK. Or hell, get a laptop put an ISUN on it and fire it into space with a nice big Yagi Wifi antenna pointed at Linus's current GPS coordinates.

    Litigation won't stop the movement, it will only stop the legal adoption thereof. And I'm so SURE developing countries will listen to the US court ruling.

    If anything this is giving microsoft time enough to lock people in with their horrendous DRM. And a big enough cash incentive for SCO that the current CEO will allow it to come to a head, if only so that he can cash out when he sees the train coming straight at him.
  • Between her stuff and stuff here on Slashdot, this is probably going to put enough conjecture to make things get interesting for SCO. Now if only the legal teams would start reading this drivel. =)
    • In IBM's latest memo, they reference Groklaw for some quotes, so at least ONE of the teams knows about her.

      [And SCO's probably starts chewing the carpet every time something new is posted there...]

  • Open Source methodology to the legal field (Score:5, Interesting)

    by isn't my name ( 514234 ) <slash.threenorth@com> on Thursday December 04, 2003 @07:03PM (#7633961)
    I think one of the things that has truly amazed me as I have watched the developments of the SCO/IBM case has been this development of the Open Source concept as it is applied to legal defense.

    Groklaw, Slashdot, the Yahoo SCOX board, Usenet groups and other places have all formed autonomously directed, self-organizing groups that have actively done paralegal work for IBM gratis.

    IBM has to have one of the largest, most well-funded legal departments of any corporation, yet there is no question that Pamela and the many Groklaw posters have done an incredible amount of work in expanding IBM's (and Red Hat's) legal case.

    Just as poor SCO was stuck with a few developers, meager funds and a mediocre proprietary product trying to fight a hopeless battle against the legions of highly motivated and skilled Linux/GNU/Apache/Samba/etc.... programmers, SCO now finds itself stuck with a few lawyers, meager funds and a mediocre legal case trying to fight a hopeless battle against a much wider group of highly motivated people all actively devoting their time and effort to do anything they can to help IBM grind them into the dust and salt the earth when they are done.

    It is truly an amazing phenomenon. I hope that PJ uses her highly analytical mind and great writing skills to write a book when this is all over. It would be nice to see her get some monetary reward out of this, and I've seen her writing skill so I know it would be fascinating. I'll gladly buy a couple of copies.

  • And Groklaw is referenced in IBM's lates filing (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    here at page 8 [uscourts.gov].
    . SCO Press Conference, Nov. 18,2003, transcript available at http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=220031119 011337666
    Pamela's Groklaw is making waves. Congratulations geek grrrl!
    • Coming from a Windows world, I was floored by the concept. In Windows, I just did what I was told, so to speak, and colored within the lines. But when I saw blackbox, I understood for the first time that computer software can be whatever you want it to be. It had the same impact on me as my first snowfall as a kid -- just so much fun to play with this new stuff.

      But what I love about it the most is the ethics behind it. I honor the folks that did this, because they made it possible for me learn what my comp
    • Most of my friends know a bit about technology. All of them are too young and too smart to have this "ain't broken" attitude. Maybe they just don't like me, but they mock Linux (and me, indirectly) whenever I bring it up.

      Of course, there was a point when it was the other way around. I would walk into the Beatbox (thebeatbox.org) and sit down at a well-patched Win2k machine -- with public admin access. When I played CS for five minutes and it crashed, I'd blame Windows. The gamers would look over at me

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