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Public Net-work

Posted by michael on Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:53 PM
from the spqr dept.
The Internet United States
Steven Clift writes "I've written up an article titled E-Democracy, E-Governance, and Public Net-work. It illustrates how governments can do more with the Internet to meet public challenges. While the big bad government should be viewed skeptically in terms of censorship and regulation, it also does a million good things related to the non-techie parts of our lives. The question is not whether the government should use the Internet to involve people in meeting their public mission, but how to apply technology in the most effective way."
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  • Woah, woah, woah (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 05 2003, @12:55PM (#6881275)
    People... getting together... to solve problems. This sounds like it might end up in a bloody revolution! Better put a stop to it now before it's too late. Don't want this democracy thing to get out of hand.
  • ...is not communication between the public and the governing bodies; it is meaningful communication. The greatest advantage of the Internet age--I can talk to anyone and anyone can talk to me without filters or gatekeepers--is also the greatest flaw. Ever try to have a meaningful conversation with a crowd of people?

    Envision government running like "The Price is Right," with the audience screaming out the policy decisions. =)

    I haven't finished the article yet, but I don't have much hope that there is a proffered reasonable solution.

    • so what your saying is that people are not capable of governing themselfs and that we need a ruling class???

      • Re:The real problem with "E-Democracy" (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Mr_Matt (225037) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:17PM (#6881489)
        was gonna mod, decided to post instead...

        so what your saying is that people are not capable of governing themselfs and that we need a ruling class???

        No...what they're saying is "e-democracy" falls short of real democracy insofar as real democracy contains a measure of order, brought about by the inherent limitations of communication IRL. (Notice how parliamentary rules have evolved to address this very issue in our various forms of government.) Grandparent poster's point is that 'e-democracy' removes these communication limitations, thereby removing orderly dissemination of the democratic process, leading to mob-dominated chaos. Thus does 'e-democracy' fall short of real democracy. Kindly remove the aluminum beanie. :)

        • Grandparent poster's point is that 'e-democracy' removes these communication limitations, thereby removing orderly dissemination of the democratic process

          This of course, presumes that e-democracy mechanisms cannot evolve to put the Internet-equivalent of parliamentary rules into place. I strongly feel that this evolution is inevitable.

    • Re:The real problem with "E-Democracy" (Score:5, Funny)

      by kfg (145172) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:09PM (#6881426)
      "Ever try to have a meaningful conversation with a crowd of people?"

      Yeah, I've posted on Slashdot too.

      KFG
    • ...is that despite an ongoing war on terrorism (which has yet to capture the prime suspect for 9/11/01, and a bad guy that was on a list of bad guys we had not bombed yet, so we did since we couldn't find the first guy), a dismal economy, the deficit, and various other major problems around the country, Congress feels that they deserve a raise for a 5th consecutive year. [usatoday.com]
    • Pippa Norris has been doing work in this field for some time, and has amassed a great deal of research. Her book Digital Divide elaborates quite a bit on the problem of "anyone talking, nobody listening" by trying to articulate very specifically what kinds of efforts have been made by governments to incorporate online visibility in decision-making, and what kinds of further institutional changes are needed to make governments accessible to an online polity.

      -schussat

  • I went to the article...I saw a lot of neat little graphs.

    The conclusion was: To be involved in defining the future of democracy, governance and public work at the dawn of the information-age is an incredible opportunity and responsibility. With the intelligent and effective application of ICTs, combined with democratic intent, we can make governments more responsive, we can connect citizens to effectively meet public challenges, and ultimately, we can build a more sustainable future for the benefit of th

    • The problem with the internet (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      is that any half-baked nonsense can be published to the world. fortunately, most people ignore it.

      The problem with slashdot is that half baked nonsense gets posted on the front page, and people think that since it made it past the janitors, it is useful substance.

      Usually it isn't.

  • why not direct democracy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by adamruck (638131) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:00PM (#6881338)
    Part of the orginal justification of representitive democracy was that it was logisticly impossible to have everyone vote on every topic. But now that electronic voting is an option why do we still need representatives?

    • Re:why not direct democracy (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      E-voting still isn't quite there... and do you realize how many issues there would be to vote on?

    • Re:why not direct democracy (Score:5, Insightful)

      by goldspider (445116) <ardrake79 AT gmail DOT com> on Friday September 05 2003, @01:08PM (#6881417) Homepage
      "But now that electronic voting is an option why do we still need representatives?"

      1. Because mob-rule (pure democracy) is a bad idea.

      2. Because most people don't even give a shit about who's PRESIDENT, let alone every minor issue our representatives get paid (well) to address.

      • 1. Because mob-rule (pure democracy) is a bad idea.

        Why? When the majority of people want a certain action to be taken then that is what will be voted for. How is this bad? Why is that when the general populace votes for a president then it's democracy and it's a good thing, but when the general populace votes on an issue then suddenly it's mob rule and it's a bad thing.

        2. Because most people don't even give a shit about who's PRESIDENT, let alone every minor issue our representatives get paid (well) t
        • Because a president, legislator, or other elected official (good or bad) is much less fickle (and potentially more compassionate) than a mob.
          • Because a president, legislator, or other elected official (good or bad) is much less fickle (and potentially more compassionate) than a mob.

            I am still looking for the mob here. You have failed to answer my original question as to why direct democracy will result in this so-called "mob".

            How do you figure that 1 person - who as we have seen first hand can be "bought" with campaign contributions will be more compassionate? In that instance we only have to sway 1 person and bam we can ram something down
        • Why? When the majority of people want a certain action to be taken then that is what will be voted for. How is this bad?

          It's called "the tyranny of the majority".

          Once upon a time, a majority of people thought that owning slaves was ok. I'm not sure that it still isn't that way, at least in some parts of the country. Is it ok to pass laws making slavery ok, or would that be bad?

          In some parts of the country, a majority of people think that killing fags is a fun thing to do on a Saturday night. Would you

        • Here's one example.

          Women wouldn't be able to vote. Women's suffrage was not a popular idea in the general's public eye. It would have never became an admendment if it was voted on(including if women voted).

          And if the general public voted on taxes, the social and economical majority would be the least taxed with all minority social and economic groups being taxed the highest.

          Mob rule doesn't work. Its too easily influenced, and our founding fathers knew this.

      • Because mob-rule (pure democracy) is a bad idea.

        Direct democracy does not have to mean "mobocracy" or pure majoritarian rule. Individual freedoms and minority rights can indeed be respected and protected in reconciliation with community interests. Beware the hobgoblins of mob rule, for their existence can be entirely attributed to the deep-seated fears of an arrogant ruling class, their devotees and back-door power brokers.

    • direct democracy not necessarily better (Score:5, Insightful)

      by *weasel (174362) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:10PM (#6881434)
      precisely because it is not feasible for everyone with a vote to be informed on every decision.

      your representative has a team of highly specialized and highly dedicated aides whose job it is to know the entire issue.

      they have the training and the time to do so. you or i, do not. not reliably, and not for every subject. are you going to pretend that having citizens directly vote on every contract extension for every union is a good idea? or how about directly voting on the budget, or social spending plans?

      the collective doesn't have the same burden of responsibility. yes, representative democracy has a flaw (susceptible to corruption) but it also has enough benefits that it's a worthwhile system. it also has a large check (term limits, reelection) to ensure that the citizens have a measure of control over the graft.
      • Then why can't the aide inform citizens about the entire issue, just like they inform the representative?

        While I mostly agree that having slashdot polls for laws are a bad idea, I'm not so sure that informing the populace is one of the major problems. Having an educated populace in the first place would be a good start...
        • Buddy, I have little time enough for my own personal issues, much less the issues of my country. I'd rather vote by proxy by choosing someone to represent me in Congress who follows my general line of thinking and can make more informed decisions than I could, not because I'm not smart enough, but because I don't have the time to invest in becoming informed about every damn little issue that comes up.

          I can personally filter my own mail for spam, but I'd rather delegate that to my automated filter, cause I
      • your representative has a team of highly specialized and highly dedicated aides

        True, but then again, do we really want the specialized and dedicated aides from Disney to decide what the law will be? Or Mirco$oft?

        While you are right, you can also be wrong...

      • ...your representative has a team of highly specialized and highly dedicated aides whose job it is to know the entire issue.

        We call them "lobbyists" for short :-) Yep, highly specialized and highly dedicated.

  • Just imagine (Score:5, Insightful)

    by QuantumRiff (120817) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:02PM (#6881366)
    If your local governments started putting public information online in a searchable format. Do a simple search on your local govt web site to get minutes of committe meetings, forclosures, law changes, heck, just put all the local laws and requlations in a database that is easily searchable. That would make it much easier for people to find laws and regulations. In my town at least, you either read about the town meetings in the local, and very crappy newspaper, or you have to trudge down to city hall and ask to see it. Not to mention putting on these websites who these elected and appointed leaders are, and what they have voted for and against. Nationwide, any state, county or city.. Would make it much easier to decide who to vote for, and what they have stood for in the past..

  • Hmm (Score:5, Informative)

    by B3ryllium (571199) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:03PM (#6881371) Homepage
    Where I work, we just did a test-run with the "VClass" software. My boss is big on the idea that such all-in-one software (voice conferencing, whiteboard, app sharing, etc) could be useful for making "Virtual Townhall" meetings, where community members can participate without having to physically show up.

    It would make sense to start this government information technology (GIT) revolution on a small scale and work slowly up, ironing out bugs along the way. Who knows, eventually countries might even use the Internet to host referendums for government policies?

  • How about no, Scott. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by og_sh0x (520297) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:04PM (#6881381) Homepage
    What the government already does online is good enough. You can renew your tabs online, file your taxes, and download forms, and probably a few more things. Anything beyond that will involve national ID cards, electronic voting, and everything else that you could possibly not want. Do you really want to trust the government to put your life online? Haven't you looked at the laws that have been passed lately? Does it make you think they have a clue yet? How about in 50 years? Somehow I don't think I'd even trust them then. But then again, by then it will be inevitable. They will be too tempted to use this power to ignore it. So I guess it's a good thing then, being that it's inevitable and all.
    • What the government already does online is good enough.

      Not that I'm in favor of "national ID cards, electronic voting, and everything else that you could possibly not want," but you're clearly overstating the government's internet presence if you think it shouldn't grow. I can think of several things:

      1. Free access to U.S. District Court filings. You're a shareholder, a class action member, an interested member of the public, whatever- why should you wait for a press release and then take the media's w
      • And how exactly do you think something of this scale is possible without national ID cards or electronic voting? Without these two things in the scheme, the box gets filled with anonymous trolls, or the suggestions fall on deaf ears.

  • Decentralized Democracy (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rhakka (224319) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:08PM (#6881407)
    Obviously there are a boatload of issues with security that, hopefully, could be addressed someday. However I have a dream.

    That dream is for the day where I, as a voter, get to make my voice heard directly on as much or as little of the government's operation as possible, without one catch-all representative doing it for me. Issues come up for voting, and there would be a place where I could go and see the most popular arguements on both sides and the views of critics and pundits and politicos of my choosing regarding the issues in question if I like, and vote directly on the issues. Or, if I am busy, perhaps I could earmark my representatives by expertise. Perhaps I want to earmark a respected doctor as my representative for medical issues, greenspan as my economic representative, nader as my consumer rights representative... and have their votes count for mine as default unless I actively change my rep for a particular issue or earmark an issue as "manual".

    We'd still need a president to handle emergency decisions, diplomacy, and sometimes to override popular views that just are plain bad. But congress and the house of reps could go away completely. The "house of reps" would simply be whoever the people respect enough, either overall or within their area of expertise, at any particular time, to trust with their own vote. No terms or limits or re elections or smear campaigns. Just issues and discussion and participation, directly, on a one person one vote basis.

    Maybe someday..

      • And this couldn't lead to any Vote Buying now could it? Whole classes of people that live off the fact that they are selling their votes to their earmarked representative. Yeah, that would be good.

        I don't think this would be a problem. Obviously, in such a direct democracy, vote buying would be illegal, and probably criminal -- with severe punishments. It would be impossible to buy votes on a large scale without getting caught, and buying votes on a small scale is pointless unless the issue is extreme



  • This ""E-Citizen says "E-Nough!"

  • Government thinks you're stupid (Score:5, Insightful)

    by John Jorsett (171560) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:12PM (#6881453)
    While the big bad government should be viewed skeptically in terms of censorship and regulation, it also does a million good things related to the non-techie parts of our lives.

    Unfortunately, one goes with the other. You let government do "a million good things" for you and its natural instinct is to do even more. For your own good of course. That includes censorship and regulation. Government thinks you can't handle your own affairs, so it'll just have to do it for you, you stupid clod.

  • Well though out...but is this a pipedream? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by venom600 (527627) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:12PM (#6881455) Homepage Journal

    I like the *ideas* presented in this guys article, but at this point in time I think its still a bit of a pipe dream. Mostly due to the lack of familiarity with the technology by non-technical people and the paranoia of those technical enough to understand what is going on behind the scenes.

    Also, trying to communicate anything meaningful in a public electronic forum is next to impossible any more. There is just too much noise. The only good way to reduce the noise is to make people accountable for their comments and suggestions. But, as we all are well aware, the only good way to make people accountable is to take away their anonymity....which kinda defeats the purpose in the first place.

  • Omission (Score:2, Interesting)

    by akaina (472254)
    The structure is layed out very well, but I have some additions to recommend. Along with citizens should be "special interests", "big corporations". Included with government should be "alterier motives", "barred entrance via campaign costs". These X factors cannot be ignored, granted the scope of this paper isn't a digression on flaws in government, I do believe that flaws are big enough that they cannot be ignored.

    I really like the E-Democracy conceptual model. It shows the cyclical role of citizens as th

    • I agree with you. Electronic networks are mostly the persistent forms of social or logical networks. The things that happen quite often in reality are the best candidates for us trying to duplicate them in the electronic world.

      Thus, broadly I do believe, that the utlimately the real world, with its physical and logical flaws, and goedelian contradictions, will be recreated in the electronic world.

      But there is a wild element, and that is something could be created during this process that shall be influ

  • In the tech group, it's easy to say that the Gov't does the "regular daily stuff" ok. However, ask a PETA person, or a Greenpeace person, or any other focus group that is as knowledgable about their topic as we are about tech, and they'll say, "oh the gov't handles tech fine, but as far as MY topic, they're crappy".

  • Online vs. Person-to-person (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bs_02_06_02 (670476) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:25PM (#6881537)
    Many people are not terribly considerate when online. People are quick to judge, are too sensitive, anger too quickly, they resort to flamewars or trolling, etc. when online. It's easy to do. There's very little accountability online. The reason? Anonymity. Put your picture and a name/address/phone number alongside online behavior, and the 'Net will become a very polite place very quickly. Occasionally, in a large group of people, you will run into a fearless troll, but they can quickly be shunned by the majority and rendered mostly ineffective. Online, trolls can be more effective at disrupting communications. Slashdot works for those that read regularly. Moderation dies off after several hours of posts to a piece of news. For the readers that catch up occasionally, their chance to be heard and moderated up are slim.

  • Just a Million Good things? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Googol (63685) on Friday September 05 2003, @01:30PM (#6881573)
    Why not billions and billions of good things? How about Trillions? The Government should only do one thing well, you know, like good Unix design philosophy. This was known in the 19th century: Bastiat pans Socialism [constitution.org]
  • Steven,
    Why did you use a hyphen in the word "Net-work"?
    It is annoy-ing when peo-ple use hyphens in-corr-ect-ly. Thank-you for your atten-tion.
  • Good:
    It would allow the goverment to quickly pass information to the public and give them a almost instant response to that new information. This could save money, speed up goverment projects, and make goverment more democratic and better for the people.

    Bad:
    It would leave a disproportionate percentage of the poor out of the picture. Its is much harder for a poor person to buy a computer and surf the net, and there are not always computers avaible at public labs and librarys. It might increase the di
  • Meetup [meetup.com] has a topic for E-democracy [meetup.com]. From the description, it reads "Meetup with other local citizens to discuss how technology can enhance the democratic process." Who better than Slashdotters to thoroughly engage their fellow citizens on this very important topic?
  • with the net. I can pay my income tax, parking tickets, speeding tickets, postal bills, toll collections, and a myriad of other fees, fines and charges all online.
    • Sure, democracy is great, isn't it?

      Imagine if we had direct voting all along. Blacks would still be slaves, women wouldnt be able to vote, children would still legally be property. Maybe you'd enjoy a society where you have to think, act, and live like everyone else, after all, you are here on slashdot.

      My point is, the right decision isn't always the most popular one. That's why the USA is a Republic.

      Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
        • The constitution sure did define basic human rights. It defines a black man as worth 2/3rds of a white man. This wasn't considered "evil", it was completely natural and normal.

          If e-voting on every issue, how do you figure there'd be no DMCA or PATRIOT act? I'd wager there'd be a much stricter PATRIOT act, if you weren't paying attention, the general populous was pretty blinded with rage after 9/11. I'd be the majority of americans would have passed the "make the middle east a nuclear wasteland" act if
        • Umm the constitution gave us, the citzens, very little rights. Notice how most of our constitutional rights are defined in admendments and not in it's original articles.

    • It cuts the middlemen (politicians) out and that is always a good things.

      Do you have time, expertise, and desire to research and legislate every issue that affects you? I don't.

      For all of the flaws in our particular system, it provides a decent compromise. If the majority of the citizenry could be bothered to research and pick out their representatives with a bit more care, I might believe that they could responsibly legislate. But if they did that, they wouldn't really need to, would they?

        • That's not direct democracy. Read again.

          Issues come up for voting, and there would be a place where I could go and see the most popular arguements on both sides and the views of critics and pundits and politicos of my choosing regarding the issues in question if I like, and vote directly on the issues. Or, if I am busy, perhaps I could earmark my representatives by expertise. Perhaps I want to earmark a respected doctor as my representative for medical issues, greenspan as my economic representative, nader

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