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The Economics Of Spamming
Posted by
timothy
on Wed Aug 06, 2003 03:28 PM
from the will-build-a-better-idiot dept.
from the will-build-a-better-idiot dept.
Shardleton writes "What kind of an idiot would buy penis-enlargement pills? Even more idiotic, who would buy them from a spammer? Apparently LOTS of people, according to this article at Wired. The operators of a spamvertised order site left their customer logs exposed. There were 6,000 orders for the pills since July 4. Sayeth Wired: "Do the math and you begin to understand why spammers are willing to put up with the wrath of spam recipients, Internet service providers and federal regulators.""
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And they don't even have to sell anything (Score:5, Insightful)
Offering e-mail recipients "free pornography" if they download a software program. The program often provides the pornography, but only after the user's computer dials a 1-900 number to an overseas location, racking up hundreds of dollars in phone charges.
"Pump and dump" stock schemes, in which a spammer sends e-mails touting a certain stock and encourages people to buy it. The stock's value goes up, and spammers sell it at a profit.
Accepting payment for an item without sending it. Spammers bet that someone buying Viagra or pills for the enlargement of body parts would be too embarrassed to call the police or Better Business Bureau.
Of course, if there was ever need for proof that there's a sucker born every minute, just check out this quote from the Wired article:
John.
Re:And they don't even have to sell anything (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:And they don't even have to sell anything (Score:4, Funny)
The last reminds me of a scheme a friend and I cooked up in high school, which seemed completely legal to us.
Sell through magazine ads (ok no internet then, just modify for the times) a subscription/package of some pornos, nothing special, maybe just your usual college-girls-gone-wild stuff, for a lower-than-usual price, like 5 or 10 bucks.
Now, you collect a ton of money, then to everyone who sent you cash, you mail them back a letter, explaining that for (whatever reason) you cannot send them the porno they ordered, and you enclose a refund cheque for the full amount.
The catch is, you name you company "Scat-Fetish-Jizz-Gobbler Corporation", or something really sick and embarassing.
You bank on the fact that most people wouldnt suffer the embarassment of facing the bank teller for 5 or 10 bucks.
But you're in the clear - after all you did refund their money.
This was back before ubiquitous ATMs and online payments and all that jazz.
Parent
Re:And they don't even have to sell anything (Score:5, Informative)
-T
Parent
Re:And they don't even have to sell anything (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
My new business plan! (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:And they don't even have to sell anything (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:sh!t (Score:5, Funny)
"Make your penis HUGE"
The penis reducing pills start at $1000...
Parent
Uh-oh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Uh-oh (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Uh-oh (Score:5, Funny)
And being involved in your "friend's" erectile dysfunction is somehow LESS embarassing?
Hmmm...
MadCow
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Re:Uh-oh (Score:4, Funny)
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Always wondered... (Score:5, Interesting)
Any chance the spammer did a media honeypot? Released fake records to make marketers *think* he was successful?
Re:Always wondered... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Public Disgrace!! (Score:5, Informative)
Braden Bournival
561 Montgomery. St, Manchester, NH 03102
Tel. #: (603) 669-7422
Email: frappe_boy@yahoo.com
Do whatever you want with this info but don't blame ME!!!
And one from Canada (Score:4, Informative)
1235 George Ave.
Windsor, Ontario
Canada
N8Y 2X6
TEL#:(519) 948-9208
Parent
Re:Public Disgrace!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Because of weird legal loopholes, spammers can legitimately email you by way of lists they got from other companies that once got your email because you agreed to let them sell it when you clicked "OK" without reading the entirety of the 5 page privacy policy.
Parent
Re:Public Disgrace!! (Score:4, Interesting)
RTFA. The FTC says there is no proof that these things work but it does not have the resources to follow up. I guess there are bigger fish to fry.
Btw, it also says that the guy has a strange sense of ethics and honoured all refund requests. He's also a national-level expert chess player.
Parent
Ooh (Score:5, Funny)
Meeeeeeeeeee
The problem that just won't go away. (Score:5, Interesting)
Despite my vehement loathing of spam, a recent incident is making me question how we go about dealing with it. Recently, Something Awful has been having issues with the SPEWS list, a popular spam blacklister, who according [somethingawful.com] to Something Awful [somethingawful.com] blacklisted a whole chunk of IP addresses that happened to include their own unabused server without offering recourse or explanation simply because it had the misfortune of sharing address space unknowingly and unwillingly. I'd call that overkill, and more offensive than the perceived problem of spam itself if truth be told. Bayesian filters [python.net] work, so why do we need to continue inadvertently censoring netizens who have nothing to do with spamming?
I tell you, folks, after reading this article and hearing about what anti-spam proponents have come up with for solutions, I'm starting to have second thoughts about the whole deal. For me it comes down to to the freedom of speech issue -- I've always been told that if you can't handle free speech you don't agree with you obviously can't handle free speech -- and I suppose just because something irritates me doesn't mean that the greater good would be served by silencing that something.
Another perspective is that the amount of money being pumped back into the economy by so-called unsolicited commercial e-mail is nothing to scoff at, and perhaps legislating it in some tolerable form such as limiting a company to one commercial message per person per day would create a new legitimate business method in this country. It's something to think about, certainly. I'd hate to think we're going to lose another revenue stream to outsourcing before we've even had a chance to give it a go locally, and this may be a way for us to recapture some of those IT jobs that have been lost and generate a whole new crop of successful entrepeneurships.
Re:The problem that just won't go away. (Score:5, Insightful)
Admittedly, I didn't RTFA.. But, as someone who is vehement about free speech myself I can tell you that I don't consider SPAM as free speech. It's not free speech if you have no way to avoid it. Sure, if I don't like what someone's saying on TV, I can change the channel. I don't have the option of 'changing the channel' on a spammer.
I agree, everyone should have the right to speak their mind, no matter how unpopular or controversial. However, no one has the right to force anyone else to read, listen to, or otherwise hold captive an audience - and thats exactly what spammers are doing.
And don't tell me I can simply hit the delete button - thats not something I should have to do. Just like if someone's making harassing phonecalls to me, I can call the police and press charges. There needs to be a similar mechanism for SPAM, preferrably something involving rope, stakes, honey and a mound of Texas fireants.
Parent
Re:The problem that just won't go away. (Score:5, Insightful)
Second, the "free speech" issue. If you lie to my employees to get them to stamp your mail with my bulk-mailing code it's not free speech, it's fraud. I won't shut you down because of what your mail says, but because you want me to foot the bill for it. Also, your right to free speech doesn't obligate me to listen. If you have to lie about the subject and sender to get people to listen, it's likely they don't want to hear you.
Parent
Re:The problem that just won't go away. (Score:5, Interesting)
"For me it comes down to to the freedom of speech issue -"
You can say whatever the fuck you want, but not in a manner in which I have to pay for it.
Parent
Re:The problem that just won't go away. (Score:4, Interesting)
The Bayesian filter is only a stopgap as well. The spam still gets sent, clogging up mail servers and a whole load of bandwidth. The only long term solution is to stop spam at source, and I don't really have an answer how to do that.
There are a few suggestions:
1) Dump SMTP. Replace it with a secure version that doesn't allow spammers to hide behind an anonymous address.
2) Make spamming illegal, punishable by large fines, and *enforce it*
3) Authorities need to recognise spam as a seriousproblem and deal with it. If someone sent out a destructive virus, it would take the FBI about 2 days to track them down. The same approach needs to be taken with spam.
4) Make it an offence to *buy* from a spammer. Call it an accessory to a crime, or something.
Parent
Re:The problem that just won't go away. (Score:5, Insightful)
Thus, a spammer's free speech rights have no bearing on my inbox.
Parent
Lesser of two evils (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lesser of two evils (Score:5, Interesting)
Spam provides jobs too in that someone has to write the filter programs so that we are saved from having to manually delete one more fsking spam.
Parent
jobs? (Score:5, Funny)
So does pimping, but that doesn't mean I'm going to recognize it as an overall benefit to society.
Parent
Forget the pills (Score:5, Funny)
ON spam... (Score:5, Interesting)
What is the point? They can't gain anything from this and leaves me completely baffled..
women customers? (Score:5, Funny)
Talk about salesmanship!
Re:women customers? (Score:5, Interesting)
To get the pills, I had to fill out a questionnaire with my medical history.
No, there was no possibility that I was pregnant.
No, I had no history of reproductive illness.
No, I am not a smoker.
Yes, I understand that the pill does not prevent the transmission of STDs.
And so forth.
I submitted my answers, and it proudly announced that I met their criteria and could go on the pill. They were all set to send them to me. I didn't go through with it, though, because of one little thing they didn't bother to ask about... I'm male.
Parent
You! Outta the Gene Pool! (Score:5, Funny)
Garg
E-mail Addresses needed (Score:5, Funny)
spammers are dumb (Score:5, Insightful)
It's obvious that they're making money; how else is Ralsky going to afford his house?
Mathematics 101 with DLS! (Score:5, Funny)
Okay, sooo... 6000 orders in a 4 week period?
52 weeks in a standard year (big surprise there for some of you!) so 52 / 4 = 13, thus 13 * 6000 = 78000 sales in one year. For a rough estimate of world population right now I'll take 6.100.000.000 people, but that includes by average 52% women. Thus ( 6.100.000.000 / 100 ) * 48 = 2.928.000.000 and 2.928.000.000 / 78000 ~= 37538 years before every male on this planet has a huge penis and the spam will FINALLY stop!
I suggest lynching spammers, much faster.
fucking naive (Score:5, Insightful)
you really believe these people purchased this shit? these people's credit cards were stolen! ever get emails that resemble ebay's account page or aol's billing or some other fake bullshit thats trying to snatch your credit card numbers.. those things fool a lot more people than "make your penis huge" sells penis pills
what do you think gets done with all those stolen cc's.. the bastard turns around and signs them up for penis pills, porno sitesm, etc whatever gets the comission. sending out a buttload of spam to the same people that your stealing ccs from just obfuscates things to help cover your tracks. this is the real shady shit thats going on with spam.. not penis mail that people are actually buying, people are getting ripped off!
I bought the pills (Score:5, Funny)
Free alternative to pills (Score:5, Funny)
Disclaimer: Results may not last more than 5-10 minutes.
What I don't understand... (Score:5, Interesting)
What does someone hope to gain from this? Is it some secret code that will give me a giant viagra-enhanced penis and hot schoolgirls to go with it if I can figure it out? At least for normal spam I can see the motivation.
example: I got mail today with the title "rmw oejectivity" and the body "cwdb". Why?!
-puk
Real Life Slashdotting (Score:5, Insightful)
Once I have this information, I would like to give it to Spamhaus or some other organization, preferably one with an advertising budget, and have them do a spot on tv explaining the dangers of spam.
Maybe the government should do a public service announcement about it. You see, the majority of people who buy this crap are not internet savvy, but you better believe they are television savvy.
I think the FTC would be much better off spending its money to educate potential victims of spam than it would going after the actual spammers.
Is it April again already? (Score:5, Funny)
You can't make this stuff up.
mitch
Understanding the economics of direct marketing (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to work for a small software company [working.com] where most of our sales were made through direct mail. I think our gross sales peaked at about $2 million one year while I was working there in the mid-90's.
Each direct mail piece sent to a prospect costs hard cash to send, for printing, postage, labor and mailing list rental. Yet it was our experience that a response rate of 0.5% was sufficient to yield a profit.
Once you have identified a profitable offer and a mailing list that's rich with customers who respond to direct mail, you have a license to print money. That's why you probably each of you reading this receive two or three pieces of direct mail every day.
The following two comments I posted at Kuro5hin discuss this in great detail:
- The Importance of Advertising to Business [kuro5hin.org]
- Direct mail is very scientifically targeted [kuro5hin.org]
Now, if you consider that the cost of sending spam is insignificant when the spammer can hijack an open relay, you will understand that spam will never stop until purchasers stop responding to spam.Simply installing filters on your own machine won't help. The people who purchase sexual enhancement products over the Internet don't know from spam filters.
I think the end to spam will come only when every ISP and mail hosting service installs filters that are enabled by default. Only then will the response rate of spam be reduced to the point that it's no longer economical to send it.
I think it's likely the day will come when ISPs will be forced to install filters that cannot be disabled. Possibly this will be ordered by various national governments.
The Freedom of Speech Issue (Score:5, Informative)
Freedom of speech is not absolute, and the "yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater" example is only one of the most simplistic restrictions.
Let's take a quick look at prohibitions of Freedom of Speech that have been upheld by the courts.
Noise Ordinances: Yes, the Nazis must be allowed to march through Skokie, but not down a residential street at 2 a.m. on a school night. Courts have consistently upheld that protected speech can be limited to specific places at specific times so as not to constitute an undue burden of noise or disruption on the public.
Property Rights: Your right to be heard does not include a right to come on my property, against my wishes, to speak to me. A good example is when ACT UP! invaded a church during services and started shouting "you're killing us" as part of a protest against the Catholic Church's policies. Had they kept it on the sidewalk in front of the church, it would have remained a legal, protected protest. When they entered the church, they became criminals and were arrested for trespass.
Unsolicited Advertising: Opt-out is very supported by the courts. After one telephone call or junk postal mail, if I provide you with proper notification, you may not make another unsolicited call or send me another unsolicited advertisement by post. If you do, I may sue you. The law gets even more restrictive regarding unsolicited advertising by fax, requiring opt-in.
Violence: Incitement to riot is not protected. Advocating the violent overthrow of the government is not protected. Using speech intended to goad someone into a physical altercation is not protected. To take the shouting "fire" in a movie theater example a step further... shouting "what are ya, some kinda faggot" in a crowded redneck bar is not protected speech.
Fraud: Speech intended to defraud me out of services, property, or money is not protected.
Slander & Libel: Slanderous or libelous speech is not protected.
Protection of Children: It is illegal to sell pornography to children. Though it is protected speech, its distribution can be restricted to a certain age group.
Commercial Speech: You can be forced to warn people your product is dangerous, tell people how much fat or sodium it contains, etc. Commercial speech is MUCH more restricted and burdened with rules and regulations than political, religious, or artistic speech.
Broadcast Censorship: Ever seen hardcore porn during prime time on the networks? Of course not. The Supreme Court ruled that since radio/television waves enter your home unbidden, they can be regulated much more restrictively than print media.
CONCLUSION
This isn't a comprehensive list of the legal restrictions on free speech. It's just some of the major ones. There are little ones (remember that DeCSS was found not to be protected speech), and even coersions (*legally* withholding funds or licenses from groups that exercise their first amendment rights in a manner the government does not like).
So don't argue that spam is an exercise of free speech. Spam is commercial, it violates the property rights of its recipients, and is subject at bare minimum to the same restrictions set on phone and postal solicitations.
Of course my favorite quote on free speech is from Hubert Humphrey: "The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously." - Greg
Trashing GNC? (Score:5, Interesting)
What makes you think that? GNC sells several useful health products that have very real effects. I buy my multivitamins there, as well as protein powder. Unless the legally-required nutrition label on the side is lying to me, each serving contains 30 grams of protein, just like the container advertises. How is that "sugar pills" or "snake oil?" I buy the powder to get the protein, the container claims to contain protein, the powder actually is protein. I get exactly what I pay for and expect.
I call bullsh*t on you.
But they make billions selling Stacker 2 to fatties too lazy to excersize and too weak willed to stem their eating.
I've heard this comment all the time, too, and I used to think it was true. But as time went on, and I heard the comment more and more, and I met more people taking supplements, creatine, and protein bars/mixes/shakes, I noticed something: they did work out. They weren't just taking the pills and sitting on their asses. Come to think of it, I've never met anyone taking those supplements who wasn't also on some kind of exercise program.
So I call bullsh*t on you again.
Twice in one post. Nice work.
Parent
Re:a guess (Score:5, Insightful)
You could sell a canned vacuum this way. Enough people will bite at a product if it is marketed correctly.
Look at the "pet rocks" that sold in the 70's.
Parent
Re:a guess (Score:5, Funny)
I'd have to say you missed the point of the Pet Rock. The product was actually the (moderately) funny book that came with the rock.
Yours came with a book?
Crap.
Parent
Re:who would buy? (Score:5, Funny)
Aren't you glad Slashdot lets you post anonymously?
Parent
Re:Humanity at a loss (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd always hoped that people stupid enough to order spam-advertised items would be too stupid to operate a computer, nevermind use email software.
Apparently, there is a small but significant range in which you're smart enough to use a computer, but too dumb to know what to do with it.
Parent
Indeed (Score:5, Funny)
It used to be called AOL, but I think the segment is expanding...
Kjella
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