Pentagon Soft-Pedals Total Information Awareness 658
PizzaFace writes "Congress was concerned that the Pentagon's 'Total Information Awareness' program would invade citizens' privacy, so it gave the program the red light until the Pentagon addressed Congress's privacy concerns. DARPA, the Pentagon technology agency that brought us the Internet in more innocent times, showed its Total Marketing Awareness by renaming the TIA program, 'Terrorism Information Awareness.' The gist of its report seems to be that data may be collected from everyone, but it will only be used against evildoers. You can read DARPA's report and a background story from the Washington Post."
Innocent times? (Score:5, Funny)
What more innocent times were these, exactly?
Re:Innocent times? (Score:5, Funny)
Innocent times like the good ol' 50s, when you could be hounded out of the country for showing communist tendencies! Or like the 30s, when you could be framed and executed (or just beaten to death with pick handles) if you were suspected of encouraging labor rights! Or like the 19th century, when you could eliminate any random bunch of Mexicans or Native Americans cause hey, they're in the way! (doesn't work on Canadians, though).
Good ol' innocent happy days!
(waves stars and stripes, plays 'yankee doodle' on a kazoo)
Re: (Score:3, Troll)
Re:Innocent times? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Innocent times? (Score:5, Insightful)
Even in the time we live in now, you will still hide behind other people's problems instead of facing your own hard truth. It's the american way isen't it? If someone does it worse, it makes you feel a whole lot better about yourself dosen't it?
That's why americans don't want to help themselves, that mentality has seaped in so deep it won't come out.
Someday you will realize that there will always be someone worse off than you, no matter what, wasting your time pointing out other people's problems won't get you anywhere. And continuing down that path will eventually lead you to being worse off than everyone else. Seems like my theory is in the process of being proven with the path of the US. Always saying "It's not that bad, look at them they are far worse" and bam, another liberty gone.
Great Minds talk about Ideas.
Average Minds talk about Things.
Small Minds talk about Other People.
Seems that everyday the scale keeps weighing down towards the latter.
Re:Innocent times? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I'm well aware the US is and historically has often been far better than many other nations in its treatment of people. That still doesn't make it exactly exemplary. Perhaps you think when it comes to mistreating its citizens, anything the US does is Ok as long as it doesn't exceed that done by some other nation, but some of us envision a somewhat higher standard.
BTW, the hair-splitting over the definition of "native Americans" is a crock. Like it or not, there were non-European peoples here thousands of years before Europeans arrived, and attempts to downplay that fact by saying they weren't "native" (only in the sense that human beings as a biological species didn't evolve here; their cultures and languages did) smack of an intent to reduce or dismiss the legitimacy of their claims. And what else should one call them? If mere accuracy is your goal, you should note "Indians" is profoundly less accurate than "native Americans."
Re:Innocent times? (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course it is an attempt to delegitimize their claims, the term Native is politcal, since most areas of this planet have been populated and repopulated seve
Re:Innocent times? (Score:3, Insightful)
I've studied history. My relatives are Cherokee. I've been to the reservation. I know that the reservations are sometimes the worst pieces of land in the US and that people often do poorly there.
No good can come from blaming eachother for the mistakes of someone that we never knew. It is irrational and wrong. Just because people have hurt eachother in the past doesn't mean they should do so to
Re:Innocent times? (Score:3, Interesting)
Please do, but please read a little more about the American history. Maybe indeed thereare no such things as Native Americans, we all migrated here at one time or another from Eurasia. but the fact remains that one group of migrants committed the crime of genocide on the other. Maybe you had no Gulag, but you had concentration camps even before Lenin managed to say "bolshevism! sounds pretty cool for me!" (American first concentration camps were operating during miners strikes in Col
Re:We're almost all Native Americans (Score:3, Informative)
Re:We're almost all Native Americans (Score:3, Interesting)
The Dramas of Haymarket [chicagohistory.org]
If you want to skip all the historical background and go straight to the bombing, read from Act II.
Re:Innocent times? (Score:4, Insightful)
That does not excuse or whitewash the wrong that Americans do now or in the past. The McCarthy witch-hunts, persecutions, and outright mass murder kahei mentioned are against every principle set forth by the Declaration of Independence and by the US Constitution. Such wrongs are truly un-American. They should be remembered so they are never, ever, repeated.
This nation was founded on a beautiful ideal of liberty and justice. This ideal is symbolized by our flag, and is the bright beacon Lady Liberty holds aloft. This ideal also needs to be remembered, so we can better live up to it.
BTW, if any of you are flying the US Flag, go check on it for me. If it is like a lot that I have seen, it is probably tattered and faded. I have seen more poor abused flags since 911 than I have in 40 years of news footage of flag-burning protests. Learn to take proper care of your flags, and grow the sense to bring them in out of the weather and night dew.
"[America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice."
President John Quincy Adams, 1821
Re:Innocent times? (Score:3, Interesting)
This has to be the most unimaginative and juvenile way of justifying the Bad Things that have been done in America. "But Mommy, Jimmy did so-and-so!"
Particularly pointless was this pedantic little remark about Native Americans: "There are no such things as Native Americans, we all migrated here at one time or another from Eurasia." Allrighty then. I guess it's oka
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Innocent times? (Score:5, Insightful)
So basically... (Score:5, Insightful)
The State.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't matter what it's called, Orwellian surveillance systems will always be a gross breach of a citizen's right to privacy, and will always be open to abuse by those in power.
Re:The State.. (Score:5, Funny)
No need. The State can define a new term 'Potnetial Terrorist' and we'd all be included - in effect it becomes Total Info Awareness. Sometime back I posted a series of definitions that could be used:
Potential Terrorist - All of us.
Kinetic terrorist - Mobile phone users.
Intellectual terrorists - Reverse-engineers
Organised potential terrorists - Linux User Groups
e-terrorists - internet users
and so on... No need to be bashful before ordering surveillance on all and sundry.
Suspected Terrorist (Score:5, Informative)
When the Patriot Act was enacted after Sept 11, 2001, it included a provision to allow US companies to discontinue services with a suspected terrorist. At my company, a large anonymous insurance company, we are being asked (in lieu of $10,000,000 fines) to compare every claimant, vendor, and any name we come across to a database of suspected terrorists provided by the Treasury Department.
If the name matches, we are to withhold payment of the claim until we mail a form to the Treasury Dept, and they investigate the suspected terrorist.
So, if a person is injured on the job, is out of work, and wants to collect workers compensation from his employer's insurance company, he wont be able to if he has the same name as someone on the Treasury Dept's list. So, he wont be able to work because he's injured, and he wont be able to collect any insurance. Where's he going to get money to live on while the Treasury dept investigates?
Needless to say, I was appauled that we had to program these features into our claim system.
Re:Suspected Terrorist (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The State.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The State.. (Score:3, Insightful)
If they do it right, total information awareness will simply be much more efficent use of the information that is now available, but that we d
Re:The State.. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The State.. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you think that's worth it, sign up. But there's 200,000 of us here ready to fight to p
Re:The State.. (Score:3, Interesting)
> Remember that it's the State who will define who an
> "evildoer" is, and what constitutes "evildoing".
Yep, and in the state of California, the California Anti-Terrorism Information Center (CATIC) is now giving terrorism warnings on non-violent peace protests. Dissent now equals terrorism.
> Orwellian surveillance systems will always be a gross
> breach of a citizen's right to privacy,
Say rather "a citizen's right to security", for that is what the right really is. According to t
Promises (Score:5, Insightful)
but it will only be used against evildoers
You don't say. Whom did they intend to use it against if congress hadn't stopped them? Anyone who changes sides because of an argument like that deserves to be deported to a police state where, of course, all laws are for the good of the people, too.
Re:Promises (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Promises (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Promises (Score:4, Funny)
Runaway Texas Democratic legistators [sfgate.com]
Re:Promises (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Promises (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm loathe to call government "evil," however, especially since I've seen it first hand and would be lying if I didn't say all other adjectives besides "inefficient" are lies. The Slashdot crowd seems to have a problem reconciling the morality of things that they don't agree with. Government, democracy, capitalism, and especially corporations aren't inherintly evil entities.
Those that think so have traded the simple "everything is great" view of the world for the equally simple "everything is a conspiracy." In reality, our government is a lot more complex than that, and many things start with the best of intentions and are misused by unscruplous individuals later. Those that think that our politicians exist to enslave the population are naive. This indeed may happen, but more through a comedy of errors than any malicious intent. What you should be scared of are the ignorant people with the doomsday prophecies...when they start asking for money, better watch out.
I'm pretty sure this is one of those cases.
You know what would be the best way to combat terrorism in this country? Stop watching TV, stop attending protests far away from where you live, stop reading this post, and go introduce yourself to your neighbors. Bring them some wine. Have a chat.
The only reason terrorism is a threat today is because people don't know who they're living right next door to. Could be a terrorist, could be a serial killer, could be a really nice guy. But I find the fact that there can be sleeper cells of terrorists in this country that nobody knows about because everyone exists in their own little enclosed world cut off to even the people who live on the other side of their walls to be the most disturbing thing about this whole affair.
Re:Why a member of such a bad group? (Score:3, Insightful)
Your insulting message demonstrates what the Republicans are about, and shows exactly why we should all be nervous about the Republicans having this kind of tool to spy on us. Even if you are a Republican, you might not be a "good enough" Republican for them - like the ones they currently say are "moderates" and are trying to rive out of the party.
Anyone who remembers Nixon KNOWS that this tool
Rebranding (Score:5, Insightful)
Convicted Criminal? (Score:3, Insightful)
You have to laugh at the US way (Score:4, Funny)
Congress-"Hmm that sounds like it could invade peoples privacy"
Darpa"Ok - well err hmm its for terrorism"
Congress-"Well why didnt you say so , do whatever you want"
i wonder if the riaa will try this to get their anti piracy laws through- they probly already are
Re:You have to laugh at the US way (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You have to laugh at the US way (Score:2)
abuse it happend before (Score:4, Insightful)
Should the government be trusted ? I don't think so, given this [freep.com] and this [freep.com] I don't think their history is so clean.
More to the point: Washington Post article (Score:3, Informative)
Not a bit worried... (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, I find it merely amusing. That's all.
Re:Not a bit worried... (Score:5, Interesting)
It is EXACTLY because I have freedom of speech and can arm myself, EVEN against my own government, once it proves to have become the totalitarian state that our Founding Fathers feared, that I feel "secure".
Security comes from knowing that I have certain inalienable human rights, including the absolute right to defend them, even to the detriment of my own government.
But, ssshhhhh! Don't tell anyone else! That's called "terrorism" today.
Bastards.
wow (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:wow (Score:2, Insightful)
Heh heh, of course they don't think we're that stupid. Why, it'd be stupid to think the good ol' US Public is that stupid!
Now, let's see, what percentage of Americans believe in Creation Science...?
Ooooooooooooohh.
That's right, we should be tolerant of all ideas (Score:3, Interesting)
1984 twenty years late (Score:5, Insightful)
This is 1984 coming 20 years later than planned. What a horrible, horrible government.
We're all "evildoers" (Score:5, Insightful)
oh yeah, that whole arresting thing is going out the window too. It's become unfashionable to arrest people, now you just throw them in a cell forever in connection with another case, one which you are not required to mention.
The phrase, "May you live in interesting times" never sounded so scary...
name change (Score:5, Funny)
Acronym (Score:2)
Of course if they changed the program name to "Massive Information Act" the resulting acronym might be more apt.
Re:name change (Score:5, Funny)
Re:name change (Score:2)
Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. (Score:5, Funny)
Too bad it couldn't sort through this article.
-Mr. Fusion
Yea right... (Score:2)
Re:Yea right... (Score:2)
The sad thing is, I can't decide if that makes me less or more willing to wear my extra-long gray trench coat in the summer... It's usually not even a decision around here due to the temperature, but the chance to be killed totally randomly might just be worth it!
*sigh*
Re:Yea right... (Score:2)
Re:Yea right... (Score:3, Funny)
The New, Improved Name would be something like Patriot's Information Network for Homeland Empire Agency Defense System. That resolves to such a lovely ETLA, too...
In other words... (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if, behind the scenes, DARPA says something like "well, members of Congress will, of course, be exempt!", at which point Congress will immediately approve it.
I really wish, in this race to the bottom, some country would get there first in time to allow other countries to finally figure out that shit like this is really a very bad thing. But it looks to me like all of the countries are more or less operating in lockstep with each other, so they'll all hit bottom at about the same time.
Still think I'm full of shit when I say that the world is going to turn itself into a police state and that the end result will be a stable form of government capable of lasting thousands of years?
Re:In other words... (Score:2)
Let's see now...
Israel?
Iran?
Egypt?
Palestine?
Iraq? (debatable)
South Korea?
I'm sure the list goes on and on, but those are a few more recognizable examples. Basically, nearly every developed country has stepped on someone's toes in the past, and the Middle East folks have a knack for holding a grudge...for centuries. The region has always been so wacky and unstable that the British AND the French d
Re:In other words... (Score:2)
Put yourself in Hussein's shoes. You see Bush waffling in public on whether or not he's gonna invade, but U.S. Forces are streaming into the region on a daily basis. Hussein was (is?) evil, not stupid...
Where's the WMD? Al Quaeda's got it all. My bet is that Hussein said, "Well, fuck. I'm not going to get to use any of this stuff. Here, go nuts. Give 'em hell." Which wouldn't have happened if Bu
MS shows the way... (Score:4, Interesting)
It happened with Trustworthy Computing Platform Alliance as well - TCPA is now TCG.
Since TIA has been extensively criticized, especially at Slashdot, why not give it a very bad name indeed - Terrorist Information Awareness, and get away with it! Bright idea. The magic word terrorist seems to open all locks.
When I get my hands on LongHorn, I'm gonna try username terrorist and password Billyboy. Should be interesting to see what happens.
Ministry of Silly Walks (Score:5, Funny)
I feel safer already.
Some better news... (Score:4, Interesting)
It appears more than a few people are concerned about total information awareness (that's what it is, and that's what I will continue to call it) and losing their basic rights. With bullsh!t like this, the US is no longer the land of the free. Police state, here we come. *starts writing futile letters to greedy representatives*
Oh well. I wasn't using my Civil Liberties anyway.
Oversight? (Score:5, Insightful)
*snip*
oversight board composed of senior representatives from DoD and the Intelligence Community, and chaired by the Under Secretary of Defense (Acquisition, Technology and Logistics).
*/snip*
How about some civilians or "average joe" types to be appointed to that oversight board? The composition of this "oversight" board seems to be all intel and DoD guys... a bit too much agency inbreeding there. How about a joe citizen to give some civilian "little guy" perspective?
shades of Iraq (Score:5, Insightful)
Do we really want to be like Saddam Hussein's Iraq, or Nazi Germany, or Stalinist Russia for that matter? Subtracting privacy almost never adds security. Even if you watched everyone, all day, everyday, there'd be shit that slips through the cracks. Just look at how often Palestinians suicide bomb Israelis...and Israel brags it has the most stringent security in the world.
Re:shades of Iraq (Score:5, Funny)
Lucky we're nothing like those bastard Iraqis.
Response to this (Score:3, Insightful)
It's asymmetric information avialability that is the problem - a system where all the data is only available to a control-freak elite is terrible, but if everyone has access to the information, the playing field is kept level.
No, it's not nice the database exists. No, it's not going to go away. Better that it be open to all then in the hands of a secret few.
Freedom should always trump Privacy.
Sometimes im glad (Score:4, Insightful)
But there are times when living in the UK is sooo much more attractive than living in the US, at least we have a strong Data protection Act that gives us access to any information gathered by us.
And shamefully (being a privacy crusader myself) have even been put off travelling to the USA now as my information is already passed to airport security (my name, visa card number, what meal i had on the plane (true) etcetc) before the place has even had time to taxi down the runway.
I know that this will be flamed or trolled out becuase of the patriots within the slashdot crowd or i will have many responses based on the, but we are America and better, but bear in mind this is not supposed to reflect on the nation as a whole (paranoid although it is) or the poeple just a simple statement based on the privacy of the people.
A
Only used against 'terrorists' (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't suppose anyone's heard of the events this week surrounding Texas Democrats and the Department of Homeland Security [cbsnews.com], eh?
Long story short: all 51 Democrats from the Texas State Legislature ran to Oklahoma for 4 days to prevent the State from addressing some redistricting issue (there wouldn't be a quorum of legislators, and thus nothing could be voted on). Anyway, pretty much all the Republican legislators shit a brick, and somehow it seems the Department of Homeland Security got dragged into the search for the missing Democrats (yes, the same federal agency supposed purpose is to protect the entire U.S.A. from terrorists). Oh, and if that isn't enough, it seems that all Texas Department of Public Safety documents regarding the Department of Homeland Security's involvement in this fiasco were ordered destroyed [centredaily.com].
So, forgive me if I take a wee bit of convincing on this whole "TIA will only be used on foreigners" thing...
P.S.: Seriously, folks, it scares the shit out of me that the big news organizations aren't picking this story up and running with it.
Re:Only used against 'terrorists' (Score:5, Insightful)
Welcome to the nightmare...
Re:Only used against 'terrorists' (Score:5, Informative)
Or, my personal favorite:
"You're a Communist," in the McCarthy era.
Re:Only used against 'terrorists' (Score:5, Funny)
"We have found a witch. May we burn her?"
"Burn her! Buuuuuurn her!"
"How do you know she is a witch?"
"She looks like one!"
Re:Only used against 'terrorists' (Score:2)
just toss her in the fire, if she doesn't burn then she most certainly is a witch.
i heard they train terrorists to be able to resist electric chair!
Re:Only used against 'terrorists' (Score:2)
Re:Only used against 'terrorists' (Score:2)
It should read: "... the same federal agency whose supposed purpose is to
Paging Jack Bauer (Score:2, Interesting)
Trouble with statistics (Score:5, Interesting)
The police go to local stores and ask for records of anyone who purchased a red shirt and blue shorts. They get a list of 50 people. On that list, they find 10 black males. They cross-reference that list with a list of people who own revolvers. The resulting list has one person on it. The police go to his home and find $200 in cash.
Is the suspect guilty? Probably not. The way the police searched was practically guaranteed to pick out a good scapegoat. The real suspect, on the other hand, stole the clothes and gun, and never showed up on either list.
This, I suspect, is what TIA will be used for. When a heartbreaking national tragedy [kuro5hin.org] happens, the government will turn to TIA and search for a good scapegoat. The fourth amendment was meant to stop this sort of foolishness.
Naming (Score:2, Funny)
Right... (Score:3, Funny)
Operation Enduring Police State (Score:5, Interesting)
"corruption and racism" way, but far far worse in the "fascism and rogue
police state" way.
I now know how the Jews of Germany felt as they saw the vise-grip of
Nazism clamp down. Insiduously and calculatingly, the Nazi party coopted
and overran the legitimate elements of Germany's government. Nazism
failed only by the grace of God and because Hitler overreached, and
through sheer sacrifice by free people.
Tomorrow the world may not get off so easy.
Bush did not win the election. He remains the commander in chief
because his family and party connections illegally scuttled Gore's
contestation of the ballot-count. That illegal manoeuvering was effectively
cloaked in false legitimacy and hidden from public view, and amounts to a
successful coup de'tat against the legitimate government and sovereign
power of the United States of America.
These are dark times for the land of the free, the home of the brave.
As grave as that one issue is, I am not writing this letter in
condemnation of it alone nor is it the only Hitler-order threat to Freedom and
Democracy.
September Eleventh, 2001 has left a trail of unanswered questions and
betrayed trusts. The act of terrorism which took thousands of American
and foreign Human lives has been followed by events which to say the
least threaten the continued functioning and existence of our Democracy,
and point to a threat, possibly internal, which must be investigated.
These investigations have been called for and they have been impeded and thwarted
by the very entities which have fallen under suspicion.
These facts in themselves warrant a total investigation with all
urgency and priority as this Nation can muster. My belief in the just nature
and effective coordination of my Country, the United States, would
allay my suspicions and I would stand observant as established processes
assessed the facts and derived the truth, except this:
Bush has quietly gutted the very laws which make this nation Free and
Just, and openly pushed bills like the Patriot act I & II which put any
dissent into deep freeze or worse.
All these problems are beyond unnacceptable and it is in the character
and interest of the United States to meet them openly and with vigor.
The reality that our supposedly "liberal" media [questionsquestions.net] quietly ignore these
facts when they should be shouting them from every rooftop, lends ultimate
urgency to our problem: Our Nation, the torchbearer of humanity, is
under assault AND WE THE PEOPLE ARE LOSING.
The assault must be halted and routed if we are to prevent this
government and its' sacred values of Freedom, Liberty, and Justice for all are
not to perish from this earth. The defilers have craftily and
skillfully put up strong barriers to their prosecution but as a Nation WE CAN
defeat those barriers IF DARE. The mechanisms of our government are
being dismantled but the Nation is still fundamentally free; a well
performed campaign to bring the truth into the mind of every man and woman
must not fail, can not fail. The only failure is in not trying! And it is
our duty to those who died in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War,
every foreign war and to the victims of September Eleventh 2001 to Stand
UP for the Truth!
We have nothing to fear but fear itself. We have nothing to lose that
we will not lose if we do not Speak Out. We must marshal every resoure
at our disposal and launch the counteroffensive now; we have already
waited too long. The threat to our way of life, indeed to our lives
themselves, grows with each day. The threat fouled one election without
control of the White House -- in 2004, the adversary will not even need to
rig a single ballot. A second victory will cement their control. The
fall of the nation has begun and it wil
excerpt- clarification (Score:5, Interesting)
A point-by-point refutation of Mr. Ruppert's argument holds up well on the surface. Why? Because it is just that - a point-by-point refutation. Any one of these arguments, taken by itself, makes sense, particularly to a people who are still dumbstruck and grieving, a people who have been educated, both through the school system and through daily interaction with their friends and neighbors, to believe that the Americans are the Good Guys, decent and benevolent, right-thinking and honest.
And most Americans are just that. So facing people who are not that way sets up a clamor of cognitive dissonance that can be heard from from sea to shining sea. Into that cacophony of disbelief step the clean-up crews, the experts and pundits who emanate from government-sponsored think tanks, and participate in panel-style discussions such as the one with Mr. Ruppert. These "experts" are quick with the anecdotal counterpoints - and they seem pretty believable until - and unless - one takes the time to step back and take a longer view.
In an excellent piece entitled, "Uncle Sam's Lucky Finds," published by the Guardian Unlimited on Tuesday, March 18, 2002, Anne Karpf deftly navigates the scattered, pundit-tossed bread crumbs, and offers an extremely compelling view of American intelligence propaganda at its finest.
For while it is credible to assume that the various alphabet soup agencies that constitute our national security system might have missed India, France, and Russia chirping something about terrorist attacks as early as last spring, it is not credible to argue that these same agencies - who prior to September 11 could not find their arse with both hands - had, within weeks of the attacks, successfully identified all the hijackers. Following a trail of fortuitously placed flight manuals, Korans, "terrorist handbooks," (and please think about that one for a moment), and most amazingly of all, an unscathed fragment of Mohammed Atta's passport, the feds moved swiftly to construct a case implicating royal Saudi bad boy, Osama bin Laden.
It is possible, I suppose, that one of the hijackers would become careless and leave a flight manual lying around, or that the hand of some unseen deity would pluck Mr. Atta's smoldering passport out of the ruins of the WTC, (and then lay it gently at the feet of an FBI super-sleuth), but taken together, the improbability of such serendipity rapidly begins to become an impossibility.
Due to the enormity of the operation - and perhaps also due to the Pentagon's budgetary needs - shortly after the event, the terrorism experts began speculating about how September 11th could have been planned, financed, and perhaps even rehearsed, without arousing suspicion. They posited that underground cells of terrorists had lain hidden in sleepy suburban bedroom communities for perhaps as long as a decade, flying under the radar and waiting for their appointed hour to strike.
Again, taken by itself, this is a plausible explanation. But lay these stories next to the ones that tell us of devout Muslim suicide bombers preparing for a holy war by making a trip to Hooters, drinking heavily, and then leaving their apartments strewn with terrorist paraphernalia. That's when the official version begins to leak like a used condom. Are we to b
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Please explain (Score:2)
1) Freedom from surveillance pretty much means freedom from communicating with just about anyone else.
2) Things are bought and sold where there are concentrations of people.
3) Power comes from the barrel of a gun.
4) Individual targets are easier to take on than large groups.
My take on it is that most Americans are too cowardly or too "above that" to remind the government that
Spain - an example of the dangers of this stuff... (Score:5, Informative)
Many of you will probably be aware that in Spain there is a terrorist group called "ETA", that wants the Basque country (a bit in the North-West of Spain) to be independant. They are terrorists, no question, and they should be stopped. However, the current president of Spain (Aznar) hates that any of the regions of Spain wants independence, and is tending to brand anyone who wants independence as supporting terrorism. Political parties are being banned if they have members which are on a list of (several hundred) individuals which the state has decided are supporting terrorism. This means that practically any political party that is pro-independance for the Basque country is now banned. I believe this is obviously a real blow for democracy in Spain, and highlights the fact that a few terrorists can reduce the freedoms of a huge number of people if the government reacts in the wrong way.
Just my thoughts.
the more comforting the name... (Score:3, Insightful)
Never a better use of the term "Orwellian" (Score:3, Insightful)
Ohhh, then it's okay (Score:4, Funny)
The State will always try to get one over (Score:5, Insightful)
One has to assume that any politician is always seeking as much power as possible. It is not even a criticism - political systems specifically select those individuals who want power and are good at accumulating and trading it.
It's always cute to see how people are surprised when their "democratically elected leaders" turn out to have just the same tendencies as self-elected tyrants and dictators.
I believe the current tendency towards a centralization of power in the US is a self-defeating gambit, pushed by Ashcroft, but against the deeply ingrained beliefs of the political wing that put him into power, which has always distrusted big government. The attempts to turn "terrorism" into citizen control is a bit sad, really, since the minority views of the right-wing consituents in the US depend for their very existence on a open-minded and liberal democracy. Today, a register of information on everyone. Tomorrow, a national policy on morals. The next day: revolt from the conservative right-wing and fragmentation of the Republican party.
The point of democracy is not to elect the best leaders - this is a laugh - but to allow every policy, no matter how "vital to the State's interests" to be debated. Eventually such instruments will become the subject of discussion (allow 5 years for the Sept.11 trauma to wear off), and someone, somewhere, will be elected on the basis of protection of privacy. At which point we will see a swing back to smaller government and dissolution of the more blatant links between business and power.
Why not? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why not? (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's look at it like this. "Terror" is not a crime. "Terrorism" is not even a well defined act. When a person commits a "terrorist act," it could be a shooting, or a bombing, or a hijacking, etc. It's only someone's assessment of the motivation to commit the crime that labels that crime as "terrorism." So how is the database going to be limited to terrorists, or even potential terrorists, when all you need to have is a gun or some explosive material? That's a pretty wide group of people in the U.S.
And don't forget that drugs support terrorism. And don't forget that people with large amounts of cash are considered drug dealers. So if you carry large amounts of cash, you are supporting terrorism. So you're in the database simply because you cashed your paycheck and you don't like banks.
Terrorism can be redefined at any time. If you have private software on your machine which could have illegal uses, perhaps you're a terrorist. If you give to the wrong charity, maybe you're supporting terrorism. If you travel to a country "on the list," you're tagged as statistically more likely to commit a terrorist act. If your telephone records show calls to Colombia, you might be a terrorist. If you purchase a copy of the Koran, you are a potential terrorist. If you vote for the "wrong" party or person, you're a terrorist suspect.
THAT'S WHY NOT.
Re:Why not? (Score:3, Insightful)
Government abuse of a database? Never. (Score:5, Informative)
State Monitors War Protesters [oaklandtribune.com]
Re:Government abuse of a database? Never. (Score:5, Interesting)
"You can make an easy kind of a link that, if you have a protest group protesting a war where the cause that's being fought against is international terrorism, you might have terrorism at that (protest)," said Van Winkle, of the state Justice Department. "You can almost argue that a protest against that is a terrorist act."
Wow. And here I thought that we went into Iraq to Search For WMDs (tm)... I mean, Free The Iraqis (tm),
when will they learn... (Score:3, Interesting)
Really, do they not understand they need to root out the *reasons* people oppose the US politics, not just the *symptoms*?
"Terrorists" are not pissed off at the US out of envy of your economic wealth and civilian liberties, and even less so out of religious considerations -- they're pissed off because your wealth and freedom are maintained, in your name, at their expense... In this sense, the only Good Thing is Bush seems to stupid to cover it up, it's now out there or all to see. Or is it?
Curious, anxious, frightened, to see where all this will lead to..
The pentagon system exists... (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, everything I say is Chomskyist. [thirdworldtraveler.com]
So - what do we have here? We have the pentagon developing an incredibly sophisticated, expensive technology. No private sector entity could ever muster the resources - I mean expertise, not just the finances - to make a comprehensive project like this work. Not even Microsoft (they'd screw it up anyway.) ONLY the defensive department can do it.
I should qualify that - Total Information Awareness could be implemented as open source, if we had motivation to do so. However, that wouldn't serve the purposes of the administration's corporate backers, who's goals do not include clarity and transparency.
Technology much like this already exists in the hands of corporations ("unaccountable private tyrannies," the man can sure turn a phrase) but it is not sophisticated enough for their needs in predicting our behavior - almost everything you do has a commercial component, and would be of interest to someone business, so saying that this is restricted to commercial activities is facetious.
If your primary objection is to the government getting it's hands on the data in the first place, keep in mind that a host of completely unaccountable private organizations - international corporations - already have it. In order for the government to develop such a technology, they need the information in question - so they need new legal powers to get it. The same is not true of corporations, who can and do simply trade the information with eachother.
Once the technology is developed, however, it absolutely will become available as a tool for use by the private sector, who already have the information needed to make it work.
Psychology of surveillance (Score:5, Informative)
"Foucault focused on Bentham's prison model, or the Penopticon as Bentham called it - which literally means, that which sees all. The Penopticon prison, which was popular in the early nineteenth century, was designed to allow guards to see their prisons, but not allow prisoners to see guards. The building was circular, with prisoner's cells lining the outer diameter, and in the center of the circle was a large, central observational tower. At any given time, guards could be looking down into each prisoner's cells - and thereby monitor potentially unmoral behavior - but carefully-placed blinds prevented prisoners from seeing the guards, thereby leaving them to wonder if they were being monitored at any given moment. It was Bentham's belief that the "gaze" of the Panopticon would force prisoners to behave morally. Like the all-seeing eye of God, they would feel shame at their wicked ways. In effect, the coercive nature of the Panopticon was built into its very structure."
Full text is here [slashdot.org] and also on my personal website [skilful.com].
I am also using this strategy. (Score:3, Funny)
I will also be using this strategy.
I will be robbing banks under the "Terrorist Defunding Program."
I will be growing and selling drugs under the "Terrorist Mellowing Program."
I will no longer be paying any tax under the "Emergency Funds Caching Against Terrorist Activity Program".
Welcome, Big Brother! (Score:4, Funny)
Feh.
Isn't it the same with every new anti-terror law? (Score:3, Insightful)
Already done to non-US citizens! (Score:3, Interesting)
Quoting one article:
Oddly, this has received absolutely no coverage in the US press.US already buys non-US citizens' personal data (Score:3, Informative)
Quoting one:
Oddly, this has received absolutely no coverage in the US media.Re:Unbelievable (Score:4, Insightful)
There are things worth sacrificing human lives for. Liberty is one of them. I know that goes against every value we Americans have developed over the last 50 years, but it's true.
Given the choice between living in a country where I have a chance of being shot, bombed, gassed, anthraxed or otherwise killed by terrorists, or a country where some government agency records my every word and deed and carries people it considers "dangerous" off in the middle of the night to secret trials and secret prisons, I'll take the terrorism. Accepting a little personal risk is the least I can do to respect the memories of people who died to establish a nation of relative freedom.
TIA may put a damper on terrorism, it may not, but either way I think the cure is worse than the disease.