Pentagon to Track American Consumer Purchases? 91
Anonymous Nerd writes "I was looking at Fox News today and came accross this gem of a story . It seems the Pentagon wishes to create a massive database of every transaction made in America. I wonder how they plan to track purchases made with cash?"
I know... (Score:3, Interesting)
Outlaw cash transactions..... Credit Card/Debit from now on only.. or else the terrrorist have won (tm).
(just a joke...)
Club Cards (Score:2)
Re:Club Cards (Score:1)
Re:I know... (Score:5, Funny)
Precisely why from now on I will NEVER use my credit card when making crack purchases.
Re:I know... (Score:3, Funny)
But if you don't use your credit card, you're missing out on the Cash Back! And the Bonus Miles!
Why get just crack, when you could earn credit towards a trip to Bolivia?
Re:I know... (Score:2)
Re:I know... (Score:5, Interesting)
Simple. Require that an I.D. (such as a driver's license) be presented when making cash purchases. This will be done in the name of preventing counterfeiting.
No more cash (Score:5, Informative)
Outlaw cash transactions.
I wish that that were actually funny. I'm assuming that we'll start to see just that, with certain types of purchases (such as airline tickets) only being allowed through some electronically trackable means. This administration means business and they have repeatedly shown that they are entirely willing to do things that would have been dismissed as ludicrous less then a year ago.
Yeah, yeah, "Good for all debts public and private". Whatever. Stop thinking that your standards are theirs or, in fact, that illegality or irrationality make something impossible.
The Homeland (yeah, right) Security Act has plenty of provisions that most of us would dismiss out of hand in any other context.
The White House is very, very serious indeed and they are the progeny of Iran-Contra, the Watergate break ins, and a hundred other proofs that, yes, they can get away with it.
No games anymore, folks. Simulation is over and this is certainly not a drill.
So, any estimates on how soon they go after any successor to Beanz and the like for being too transferrable and not trackable enough? Any predictions on how many anonymizers for purchases we're going to see? Since credit card anonymizers for porn are under attack [nytimes.com] the game is already under way.
I predict a system cropping up where you can walk into a storefront and buy a "corporate credit card" with an anonymous name or equivalent and a predeposited balance. Say, a $500 card made out to Joe Foobar with a confirmable balance. Use up the balance and either throw it away or go to any branch and put more cash into this identity. No questions, no ID needed, no fuss, no muss. I'm betting that one of the pawn shop companies currently going national (there are several) will get into this and that they will start having spammer-style constant swapping to new Visa or MCd providers. I'll also bet that this will become illegal within three years and keep existing under a succession of forms. Further, I'll bet that we're going to start seeing a serious increase in Americans with foreign bank accounts that come with credit cards. Sure, I've got a Visa; Bank of Rome, thank you very much.
Yes, cyberpunk is ever more real by the day and I fucking HATE IT. But I'm not going to be stupid enough to deny that it is happening.
Rustin
Re:No more cash (Score:1)
1. Legitimate offshore credit card accounts are all secured. You put your money down, usually 1.5 times your credit limit, pay a processing fee of hundreds of dollars, suffer a brutal interest rate and fee structure and generally wait many months for your secured deposit to return to you upon closing the account.
2. There are many unsecured (no deposit necessary) credit card offers, but they're illegitmate, fraudulant, multi-level marketing scams, etc. International banks will not issue an unsecured card to non-citizens of their country.
3. Internet only credit card accounts are an option. They've got fees, high rates, etc., but offer anonymity. kind of a more accepted PayPal.
For the sake of privacy, it seems quite difficult to obtain an offshore credit card without spending a lot of money, making such options attractive only to the paranoid, rich or criminals. Thus, like gun control, where most crimes are committed with stolen guns, most terrorists would likely pay the fees and go with offshore accounts if there was government tracking.
--gary
TAXES (Score:1)
Yeeeeeehaw!
Cash? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually (Score:4, Funny)
(I also pay in cash alot, so nyeh!)
=Smidge=
If you really oppose this law (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:If you really oppose this law (Score:1)
yeah, I'm already gettin into the habit of paying cash anyway, since stuff from shops like "UK Hydroponic Systems" might look a little questionable.
Maybe I'll buy some mundane stuff like helal meat [cos its nice, I'm not religious] , wholesale fertiliser, petrol [gasoline], small electrical bits, etc., on my card, cos they wouldn't get in a twist about that sorta stuff, right? ;-)
Ali
Re:If you really oppose this law (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that that's what you should do if you want to practice civil disobedience by encouraging them to spy on you for no good reason. I don't agree that that's what you should do if you want practical privacy.
Observe the following technique:
And then gosh, they can't track your actual purchases. They can still decide that you're one of those freaks who deals in cash and needs spying on, but there's no way to avoid that judgement unless you either don't work or work under the table, and there's likely to be too many of those to practically spy on quite yet anyway.
Re:If you really oppose this law (Score:1)
I cannot possibly be as subversive as someone that has all day to spend thinking about it - we need someone out there to be subversive for us, someone that we can fund to add noise to the system.
Who volunteers to paint a target on their head?
Lazy, lazy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If you really oppose this law (Score:1)
1060 West Addison St, Chicago, IL 60613 [yahoo.com] is one of my favorites.
Try this when you can get a good look at the screen and see how many different "Jonathon Shade"s come up in their database.
Really. Go on. Try it.
Re:If you really oppose this law (Score:3, Funny)
Re:If you really oppose this law (Score:2)
Putting fake data in these databases is pointless, because no one ever notices except you.
Re:If you really oppose this law (Score:1)
I already do subscribe to 2600 with my CC, and fuck them if they don't like it. When it becomes 'subversive' in the US to subscribe to a magazine that I can walk into Barnes & Noble or the neighborhood newsstand and pay cash for, something is seriously wrong in this country.
Duplicate (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Duplicate (Score:2, Informative)
At the 11th hour the proposal got tacked on to the Homeland Security bill about to clear Congress, despite vocal protests from parties ranging from the EFF to William Safire.
It's too late to stop this from becoming law now. To borrow a phrase from LBJ, this bill is going through Congress like a dose of salts through a widow-woman.
kuro5hin (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:kuro5hin (Score:2)
How soon before the aggregated data gets to... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ordinary law enforcement? Obviously someone with any sort of transaction at a known head-shop must be handling illegal drugs.
Deranged crackers? After all, it's aggregated data, and could be useful for stalking, or other purposes.
Terrorist crackers? Find themselves, learn how they were found. Teach the next batch how to avoid those mistakes.
Collecting the data is bad enough. Creating this aggregate is even more dangerous. Making use of it for other than protection from terrorists seems to me to be downright unconstitional. Some would argue that the whole thing is. OTOH, now that it exists we're unlikely to be able to find out how extensive it is, or what uses are being made of it, terrorism related or not.
Looks like its time to.... (Score:1)
make random, sudden, large withdrawals and deposits in your accounts
(large being a relative term in my case)
barter. I'd like to see them track "traded three chickens for a
bale of hay and running some CAT-5" &until barter becomes illegal)
Re:Looks like its time to.... (Score:2)
Sorry, barter is already illegal.
Well, it is if you don't declare it to the IRS.
Cash (Score:4, Interesting)
Fox News can go to hell.
Re:Cash (Score:2)
Really? That's very interesting. Now how do you know that? Have you interviewed all terrorists?
Re:Cash (Score:1, Insightful)
Anyway, I think privacy advocates are wasting their time -- it's a lost cause. There are already video cameras everywhere. In the U.S., they are mostly in private buildings, but it won't be too long before the FBI starts buying feeds from these and using face recognition to track people's movements. Purchases are already being tracked by corporate interests (and the FBI/Pentagon has just as much access to this info as do the telemarketers).
And such monitoring does not by itself do any harm! For this reason it is much more critical to focus on the potential for corruption and abuse of the power that surveilance gives the authorites. (And, at the risk of flamebaiting, you desperately need to work on making your government more transparent and more genuinely democratic instead of being just a meritocracy of wealthy lawyers and businessmen.)
Re:Cash (Score:1)
I think your post just maxed out the NSA's internet keyword scanning software. Expect a knock on your door right...about...NOW.
Well, maybe not the part about the prostitutes.
Orwell anyone? (Score:5, Informative)
it just gets worse and worse ever day...
Also, look who is working on it...someone really really trustworthy with all of my information:
Rear Adm. John Poindexter, former national security adviser to President Reagan, is developing the database under the Total Information Awareness Program. Poindexter was convicted on five counts of misleading Congress and making false statements during the Iran-Contra investigation.
Re:Orwell anyone? (Score:1)
Re:Orwell anyone? (Score:1)
What else in the name of "War on Terror"? (Score:3, Insightful)
Like any experienced traveller (Score:1)
A terrorist with an economically sound attitude will anyway buy a return ticket (usually much cheaper then one-way) and then toss the return coupon.
I trust technology (Score:1)
Of course such a system would have to be connected to the rest of the world through some medium, to be able to collect data, and if it's on a large network, it can and will be cracked. So perhaps it's not such a good idea after all...
Re:I trust technology (Score:1)
What DOESN'T the pentagon want? (Score:2)
It's a good thing they're not in charge.
Re:What DOESN'T the pentagon want? (Score:2)
You forgot the GPS tracking collars with remote control shocks for inappropriate behavior.
If they work for Fido and for felons, they can work for you!
Et tu, art department? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Et tu, art department? (Score:2)
Re:Et tu, art department? (Score:1)
OTOH, I'm not too crazy about this Poindexter-headed initiative in the first place, so if they're constantly harrassed by a mob of paranoid conspiracy theorists, so much the better. Maybe we should write up a grant proposal to create them a new logo!
Thanks to Homeland Security (Score:2)
In the past two weeks there has been talk of this in the New York Times [nytimes.com] (registration blah blah blah), The Washington Post [washtimes.com] and
Harper's weekly review [harpers.org], to name a few. NPR's All Things Considered [npr.org] had a commentary on this [npr.org] (RealAudio) the other night.
Last week was the time to prevent it, now it's probably too late -- it's law.
Lets face it kids...the terrorists have won (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lets face it kids...the terrorists have won (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Lets face it kids...the terrorists have won (Score:2, Insightful)
Summary Of Editorials (Score:2)
Every AMERICAN CITIZEN??? (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you think they're going to limit it just to American citizens, or was that just a weird inaccurate description used by the reporter?
Hrm. If we're so worried about foreign terrorists (as well as domestic), you think they'd broaden the scope of the database
Re:Every AMERICAN CITIZEN??? (Score:1)
But I doubt that's what the author meant.
I hate it when reportage is confusing.
Re:Every AMERICAN CITIZEN??? (Score:1)
What I meant to say: if they said "every citizen" and the gov't was actually tracking "every person" then the article in its current manifestation would still be true.
Okay. Final post on this subject. Signing off.
Re:Every AMERICAN CITIZEN??? (Score:3, Interesting)
instead, people were more interested in clinton's penis, the amazing efficiency of private industry (how efficient were they really?), and buying suv's.
no one was all that interested in protecting freedom - maybe their pet freedoms but no one elses.
as far as i can see, things haven't changed much.
and actually, come to think of it, the us gov't does track a lot of my activity. eschelon is alive and well and has been for years. sounds like domestic american citizens will be getting a taste of what the rest of the world has gotten. if it feels invasive and wrong, keep in mind that unlike the rest of the world you guys have a say.
but as usual, you're not saying much.
Re:Every AMERICAN CITIZEN??? (Score:1)
Is this really an accurate thing to say to the Slashdot crowd? :)
Re:Every AMERICAN CITIZEN??? (Score:2)
the current us administration is shredding the bill of rights so quickly i swear they've drafted in fawn hall as a shredding consultant. and as for american foreign policy it has in the past (and quite definitely now) leaves a lot to be desired.
i grew up in kansas, and america has an impressive progressive history. blemishes along the way for sure, but its a history of progress overall. that achievement is not well represented externally and i find that disappointing.
so whoever you are, you can take your politically motivated, uncritical and dare i say unpatriotic "-1 flamebait" and shove it down your ass.
Total information web (Score:2, Informative)
every transaction
1. credit card
2. phone call
3. email
4. vacation
5. any bought
go into a massive database.
From what I understand this has now passed into law!
The funny part is that the sponsor of this part of the bill is the same dude who master-minded the iran-contra affair.
Anyway, what's funny is that there was a small outcry in the nytimes "You are suspect"
you can read it here
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/opinion/1
anyway, I'm surprised no one else has mentioned. Perhaps it was one of those 'They couldn't, could they?" reactions to the whole idea that know paid serious mind to it and now its law.
ACLU Petition (Score:3, Interesting)
--Ben
I'm a terrorist (Score:3, Funny)
My paycheck is direct deposited, but other than that I deal almost entirely in cash, so I make "large" withdrawals every week. Three times this year I've purchased a one-way rail ticket for a 300 mile journey to meet up with friends and travel back with them by car. I've rented a car once this year. I have a collection of firearms.
Yep. Terrorist.
Big Bust (Score:2)
Oh, brother... (Score:2, Funny)
Oh, brother.
Big Brother, that is.
EVERY purchase? (Score:1)
What can we do? (Score:1)
Not all that sinister (Score:3, Interesting)
NOT ALL THAT SINISTER?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
As information is linked together the potential of that information is raised exponentially. It is only the fact that there is relatively little collaboration between the various government and corporate entities. The implied intention in linking our data together is that one will be able to predict who will be a terrorist and who will not. This is the stuff of Orwell, folks. Public libraries know I'm reading "Civil Disobedience" by Thoreau. The government knows I'm registered with some leftist party. I have a registered gun. All of those pieces of data are currently kept with people who need to know them to do our job. Political organizations need to keep mailing lists. Credit card companies need to keep their bills. Libraries need to keep track of their books, and so on. However, it is the mere combination of those pieces of data that causes us to transgress into the realm of oppression. Now, we have men or machines trying to connect the dots, to presume me guilty before I even commit a crime. That's one of the fundamental beliefs of our country, isnt it? Innocent until Proven Guilty? That is totally incompatible with the type of terror we are facing. This war on terror, although it started off with the gunning down of a few hapless, pissed off fundamentalists, must by nature totally consist, from here on out, of catching criminals before they commit crimes. That is the common theme of the government's reaction to 9/11: we should have caught them before they comitted the crime. That means that all advances in this war on terror must come about by knowing more about YOUR life, what YOU buy, and trying to determine whether or not YOU are a terrorist. Unchecked efforts to capture criminals before they commit crimes is the cornerstone of oppression, the very mechanism by which all political distopias create their horror in the reader.
The parent post is totally missing the danger in this advancement. It's very easy to point and laugh and make dumb cracks about tin foil hats, but your liberties are being steadily eroded.
Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither.
moving (Score:1)
When they took the Fourth Amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs.
When they took the Fifth Amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent.
When they took the Second Amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun.
Now they've taken the First Amendment and I can't say anything.
I have a friend who has this in his signature:
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
Re:moving (Score:2)
I have a friend who has this in his signature:
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
Only this time, of course, I am replying
to a poster who had a friend who had as
his signature that quote that I was about
to put into my signature.
Justification? (Score:2)
borrowing 'mein kampf' (Score:1)
biometrics (Score:2, Interesting)
In the works for US currency soon:
Next year, the phase out of old greenbacks and new "colored" money. One of (several of the) the scams being promoted is cash that "times out". That's right, spend it by a certain date or it gradually loses a % of value down to zip.
In the works for US people soon, the implantable chip, pretty soon mandated. They'll do prisoners first, dangerous released felons on parole, "sex offenders", etc. then high risk medical patients. then normal prisoners. then "the chidrenz" so they don't get kidnapped. Proly need a few more high interest media feeding frenzy staged "kidnappings" for this to take hold. Then the military in general. The goal there is total robot cyborgs, this can just be seen now, they aren't even hiding it. Then, everyone gets the chips with no saying "no" because "we need good universal ID that can't be faked" (easily),most likely combined with a massive (again, staged on purpose for effect) bioterrorist attack so they can "keep track of who got the shots (and implants) and not.
government works on these three principles, create a problem, get the reaction you expect, off the solution. They'll have people lining up begging them for the chips(with the medical 'cure' and food and etc that will go with it), with few exceptions. Tracking cash is not going to be that hard, IMO. they don't have to track all of it, just most of it, like they track most of what happens now or have the ability to do so.
And they just voted "yes" yesterday to start doing all this stuff, more or less, I mean, they aren't being coy about it.
..ANOTHER fucking repeat (Score:1, Informative)
So whose more retarded - Michael or Timothy?
HA! YOU BUY PORN!!! CAUGHT YA!!!! (Score:4, Funny)
Rear Adm. John Poindexter is going to spend a buttload of money to build a supercomputer when a phone call would do - yep, I dig porn. I hope that satisfies your curiousity. I stop in the adult book store occasionally. And he's going to log all of my web hits? Mostly porn sites. You want a back door to my computer? Just to save you the effort it's full of porn. Go figure.
So by everyone just speaking up and admitting they dig porn, perhaps we won't need to build this computer. Maybe we can save some tax money and spend it on KILLING THE FUCKING TERRORISTS!!!!!
I mean, for christ sake! Logging everything the CITIZENS of this contry do and say and buy! Hey, why not track who we fuck? What we eat? Stick our DNA in there for good measure! How we vote! Record every one of our phone calls and store them!
I know you're a bit freaked out after Sept. 11, but TRACKING THE CITIZENS of this country doesn't make much sense when the attacks were carried out by NON-CITIZENS!!! Track them! Prove it by tracking one! Just one. Track OBL and snuff him!
Wanna make a difference?? CONTROL OUR FUCKING BORDERS and reform the INS!
PS - Being that the supercomputer and database are likely to exist already, and the law was just a nice formality, then I imagine this message will actually make it's way to you. I hope it provides you with some amusement, being that I am just a pion, insignificant. Just an American.
Gotta go, Big Brother! Gonna eat a cheeseburger and watch the Victoria's Secret show. You probably knew that already, but I'm just making sure.
Re:HA! YOU BUY PORN!!! CAUGHT YA!!!! (Score:3, Funny)
[...]
You want a back door to my computer? Just to save you the effort it's full of porn.
In light of your internet activities, I must say, the choice of words here is quite fitting
Re:HA! YOU BUY PORN!!! CAUGHT YA!!!! (Score:2)
As opposed to a baryon, lepton, meson, or quark?
How much data are we talkiing about? (Score:1)
I'm not so worried (Score:1)
Besides, is your life really that interesting?
Would't it just.. (Score:1)
Bin Laden (Score:1)
Poindexter, huh? (Score:1)
Well, I guess there is something to be said for putting a traitor in charge of looking for bad guys. Presumably he'd know where to look - under rocks, in seedy dives, at the Pentagon.... I wonder if the database will include illegal arms sales and defense contractor kickbacks, or does it just cover run-of-the-mill privacy invasions like what I bought at the corner store?
Considering the government's IT record... (Score:1)