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The Web's Longest Disclaimer
Posted by
timothy
on Mon Nov 04, 2002 03:52 AM
from the that's-gotta-be-a-joke dept.
from the that's-gotta-be-a-joke dept.
An anonymous reader writes "American Airlines are nominated for the 'longest website enduser agreement' category with customers requiring to accept this mammoth 'I accept' dialog before using their site. The tale of the tape includes: 181 paragraphs; 3482 words; and
22411 characters. However even mentioning this is probably in violation of the text."
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Wow! (Score:5, Funny)
toilet paper printer? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Hide the Real Stuff (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hide the Real Stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, the company may consider it important to let you know that you're forbidden to sell their content. However, they may consider it an unimportant footnote that by entering you grant them power of attorney.
Parent
Re:Hide the Real Stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
Even worse, malicious companies can abuse paraphrasing to hide important information. For example, the shortened EULA for Kazaa (etc) can tell the user what can be done with the software (share and download "files"), but conveniently leave out the legal issues ("files" means only non-copyrighted material). You'll either end up with a bunch of innocent people in trouble with RIAA, or a mess of lawsuits between Kazaa and RIAA because they trick users into clicking "I agree" to an over-simplified statement without explaining the laws in full to the user.
Parent
Re:Hide the Real Stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, one clause "By using the Site, you represent and warrant that you are 18 years of age or older and possess the legal right and ability to enter into this Agreement and to use the Site in accordance with all of the terms and conditions of this Agreement" could cause more than a number of problems. Say someone under the age of 18 purchases a ticket from them online...now what? are they legally obligated to actually provide a service to this person, even though said customer is technically not allowed to use the site?
The rest of the agreement seems to be pretty standard web-related agreements. Agreeing not to upload/download files (1) to a national or resident of or into any country the U.S. has embargoed, including without limitation, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Syria, or Yugoslavia; (2) to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's Specially Designated Nationals list, or (3) to anyone on the U.S. Commerce Department's Table of Denial Orders.
And then at the end of it all, there's the biggest CYA: You may not: S. Engage in any other conduct that is, or that American Airlines deems to be, in conflict with this Agreement.
Moreover, then there's the liability agreement for the agreement at the end:
American Airlines may alter, change or improve the Content at any time and without notice.
Then their privacy policy regarding information they take from you. Although this is a bit of a mind-puzzler:
American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.
First company I've seen doing that...Wonder why.
And then, the final straw: You agree that Texas law governs this Agreement's interpretation and/or any dispute arising from your access to, dealings with, or use of the Site, without regard to conflicts of law principles.
Ouch.
The last paragraph, however, is the greatest laugh-inducer:
If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision.
So, they could essentially put "You must name your first child after American Airlines", have it be struck down as idiotic, but the rest of the agreement still stands...nice
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Re:Hide the Real Stuff-EULAS (Score:5, Insightful)
If any provision of this Agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, then the invalid or unenforceable provision will be stricken from this Agreement without affecting the validity or enforceability of any other provision.
So, they could essentially put "You must name your first child after American Airlines", have it be struck down as idiotic, but the rest of the agreement still stands...nice
You must get a lot of laughs then, because I've seen that clause in a LOT of online and offline agreements. Basically if the law says a particular clause doesn't hold up in court the rest isn't invalid. IANAL of course so I can't say how legal that position is.
Parent
Re:Hide the Real Stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's look at a few examples:
Engage in any other conduct that is, or that American Airlines deems to be, in conflict with this Agreement.
Now this one is the killer. Notice the OR in there. This one simply says that any conduct which they dislike is in violation of the agreement, whether such conduct is prohibited by the agreement itself or not. In effect this single statement renders the rest of the text meaningless.
American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines.
Nonsense ! By putting up a website they implicitly allow linking to it. If they don't want people to link to it, they can take it down. "Provide reference" is even more ridiculous. Does this mean it's forbidden for me to tell anyone where to find the site ? If not, what does it mean ?
American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose. Again nonsense. They assert that simply by accessing their website, I have to consent to their "agreement". What stops me from sending them "communications" with a similar assertment in it ?
You understand that American Airlines owns any and all information or material that you post on a Forum. You agree that you waive all of the rights you have to any information or material that you post on a Forum. American Airlines has the right to do whatever it wishes with that information or material, including but not limited to deleting or editing for any reason any posting by you.
So they own everything, yet in the next paragraph they say that whatever you post to the site is fully your responsibility and they have no obligations whatsoever. Now, which will it be ? Is it *their* material or *my* material ?
You agree to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless American Airlines and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, demands, proceedings, suits and actions, including any related liabilities, obligations, losses, damages, deficiencies, penalties, taxes, levies, fines, judgments, settlements, expenses (including legal and accountants' fees and disbursements) and costs (collectively, "Claims"), based on, arising out of or resulting from your use of the Site,
This says that (among other things) if you buy a ticket on the site, and they make a profit, leading to the need to pay taxes, you need to pay those taxes for them. Really. Read it again !
It goes on, but I think further commenting is needless, the "agreement" is clearly bunk, and I'd like to believe it'd never be upheld in any court in the world. Possible exception for the USA, I recommend people unlucky enough to live there to seek asylum elsewhere.
Parent
Re:Hide the Real Stuff (Score:5, Informative)
You agree to indemnify, defend, and hold harmless American Airlines and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, demands, proceedings, suits and actions, including any related liabilities, obligations, losses, damages, deficiencies, penalties, taxes, levies, fines, judgments, settlements, expenses (including legal and accountants' fees and disbursements) and costs (collectively, "Claims"), based on, arising out of or resulting from your use of the Site,
This says that (among other things) if you buy a ticket on the site, and they make a profit, leading to the need to pay taxes, you need to pay those taxes for them. Really. Read it again !
I say
AARRGGH!! No it freaking doesn't. This is one of the most standard clauses in any contract anywhere, and it says that if _I_ incur penalties, taxes, etc as a result of using AA's service, then AA are not responsible.
I'm not a lawyer, but my job is to provide technical advice on legal contracts that are software and technology related, so I get used to this kind of language. Please try to be accurate...
Parent
Re:Hide the Real Stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
If I cut out some of the synonyms from the clause (which seems like it should be OK, as I'm only making it say less, not more), I get:
You agree to [...] indemnify [...] American Airlines [...] from and against any and all [...] taxes [...] resulting from your use of the Site,
It still seems to me that the earlier poster's interpretation is consistent with the clause: If I use the site (to buy a ticket), and taxes arise from this use of the site (as they would) then I agree to indemnify [dictionary.com] (compensate) American Airlines for those taxes.
If that's not what it means, then it is not very clear ...
Parent
Re:Hide the Real Stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you sure? You'd better read it again.
It's still okay? Well, you'd better read it again tomorrow, just to be sure.
From the agreement:
After reading this far, I came to the conclusion that there's no point reading any further, since they can change the agreement at any time, and you agree to let them.They could conceivably have changed the entire text of the agreement between the time you get the original text and the time you post your acceptance. (This is especially likely given the amount of time it would take to read and understand the entire agreement).
I don't know about your experience with these things, but this looks like about the most offensive language I've ever seen in a set of terms and conditions like this.
Parent
Heh (Score:5, Funny)
Heh... (Score:5, Funny)
Clicking "i do not agree" still brings you to the same page...
From the Website.... (Score:5, Funny)
Probably the first time in history that an airline had to close down due to slashdot.
Slashdotting Forbidden ! (Score:5, Funny)
O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure.
Re:Slashdotting Forbidden ! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Disclaimer (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Disclaimer (Score:5, Funny)
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it is a violation! (Score:5, Interesting)
taken from the disclaimer:
American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site, unless you are allowed to do so under a separate written agreement with American Airlines
so yes, you did violate a portion of it
Re:it is a violation! (Score:5, Informative)
Does this mean Google is infringing?
Since when are you bound to a contract by reading it?
" If you do not intend to be legally bound by these terms and conditions, do not access and use the Site [aa.com]. "
The obvious solution would be to use [216.239.51.100]
the google cache instead if you want to find out if it's legal for you to go to the Site [aa.com] at all.
Parent
This article is probably illegal :) (Score:5, Interesting)
If you cant even display it, how is it legal to even review the agreement?
Re:This article is probably illegal :) (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
"So don't accept... (Score:5, Funny)
So I can still book a flight without agreeing to donate my firstborn to their catering department.
Andrew
Re:"So don't accept... (Score:5, Funny)
At least maybe then the food would be edible.
Parent
I miss one paragraph (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I miss one paragraph (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
They wrote it for a reason (Score:5, Insightful)
I decided to scroll around it for a minute and happened upon this gem:
I mean, that's stupid. If your incompetent network admin leaks the travel schedules of me and 10,000 other Americans, we "voluntarily" waive the right to sue you?
If I was me (and I am), I would simply choose another airline who doesn't want to try and hoodwink me into something I will regret.
Re:They wrote it for a reason (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
The Highlights (Score:5, Funny)
American Airlines specifically denies you permission to hyperlink or provide references to the Site
Oops. Sorry Slashdot.. You've been bad
American Airlines will not treat as confidential any communications you send to us by electronic mail or otherwise. American Airlines has no obligation to refrain from publishing, reproducing, or otherwise using your communications in any way and for any purpose.
Thank You for respecting my privacy
------------
An example of lawyers that don't understand technology
Download or upload files that may damage the operation of another's computer, such as computer viruses, corrupt files, or similar software
When was the last time you downloaded something that hurt a website
Ohh.. I'm sure there's more intresting stuff in there... And I'm also pretty damn sure it's not the longest EULA...
Re:The Highlights (Score:5, Funny)
>When was the last time you downloaded something that hurt a website
Um, about 10 seconds ago. It's called the slashdot effect.
Parent
The law is lacking (Score:4, Insightful)
From the company's standpoint, EULA's could be a real headache, because the company has to hammer out pages upon pages of legalese to cover its own arse.
From the consumer's perspective, ever-expanding EULA's are just as much a nuisance as a potential pitfall when not read properly. It becomes impractical to read them, yet the less you read them before agreeing, the more you expose yourself to being taken advantage of.
The solution is more laws and better laws, and this is where the government CAN do good. If most things that are common sense can be nailed down in public law (i.e. we're not responsible if you scald yourself with hot coffee, we will not spam you, etc.), then EULAs could be trimmed and focused on the unique essentials of a particular situation. That would benefit both consumers and corporations. The only losers in this situation would be all the parasitic lawyers and the sneaky folks with dubious EULAs (*cough* Microsoft *cough*).
What's wrong with it? (Score:5, Interesting)
Likewise, [...] this agreement will be considered broadened to the extent needed to permit [...] third parties to operate within the terms of a written agreement they have entered into with us.
In other words, this policy you have to agree to is only valid as long as it doesn't interfere with agreements AA has and will make with 3rd parties. Which basically means, you're agreeing to anything that AA and its partners agree to.
It reminds me of a lot of EULAs/policies where there is a long list of who the company might and might not share information with and may seem very stringent, but at the very end of the list is a short give away line to the effect that they can share the information with anybody.
Also, it would be illegal according to the terms of the agreement to post this policy here, as in their policy you agree not to "copy, display, distribute, download, license, modify, publish, re-post, reproduce, reuse, sell, transmit" any of their HTML code or "the content of the Site" for public or commercial purposes.
You're not allowed to look at the site anyway.. (Score:5, Funny)
Or how about the fact that you must not: O. Take any action that will or could impose an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our site infrastructure. So no posting on Slashdot either!
In related news... (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, an analysis of stupid e-mail disclaimers [goldmark.org].
Mimed by Airhostesses? (Score:5, Funny)
"Our trademarks and logos are protected *here* and *here*
That way everyone could click on the "I accept" after ignoring the whole thing with a clear conscience!
Classic, funny disclaimer... (Score:5, Funny)
This product is meant for educational purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. Do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment. Postage will be paid by addressee. Subject to CAB approval. This is not an offer to sell securities. Apply only to affected area. May be too intense for some viewers. Do not stamp. Use other side for additional listings. For recreational use only. Do not disturb. All models over 18 years of age. If condition persists, consult your physician. No user-serviceable parts inside. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. Subject to change without notice. Times approximate. Simulated picture. No postage necessary if mailed in the United States. Please remain seated until the ride has come to a complete stop. Breaking seal constitutes acceptance of agreement. For off-road use only. As seen on TV. One size fits all. Many suitcases look alike. Contains a substantial amount of non-tobacco ingredients. Colors may fade. We have sent the forms which seem right for you. Slippery when wet. For office use only. Not affiliated with the American Red Cross. Drop in any mailbox. Edited for television. Keep cool; process promptly. Post office will not deliver without postage. List was current at time of printing. Return to sender, no forwarding order on file, unable to forward. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to perform. At participating locations only. Not the Beatles. Penalty for private use. See label for sequence. Substantial penalty for early withdrawal. Do not write below this line. Falling rock. Lost ticket pays maximum rate. Your canceled check is your receipt. Add toner. Place stamp here. Avoid contact with skin. Sanitized for your protection. Be sure each item is properly endorsed. Sign here without admitting guilt. Slightly higher west of the Mississippi. Employees and their families are not eligible. Beware of dog. Contestants have been briefed on some questions before the show. Limited time offer, call now to ensure prompt delivery. You must be present to win. No passes accepted for this engagement. No purchase necessary. Processed at location stamped in code at top of carton. Shading within a garment may occur. Use only in a well-ventilated area. Keep away from fire or flames. Replace with same type. Approved for veterans. Booths for two or more. Check here if tax deductible. Some equipment shown is optional. Price does not include taxes. No Canadian coins. Not recommended for children. Prerecorded for this time zone. Reproduction strictly prohibited. No solicitors. No alcohol, dogs or horses. No anchovies unless otherwise specified. Restaurant package, not for resale. List at least two alternate dates. First pull up, then pull down. Call toll free number before digging. Driver does not carry cash. Some of the trademarks mentioned in this product appear for identification purposes only. Objects in mirror may be closer than they appear. Record additional transactions on back of previous stub. Unix is a registered trademark of AT&T. Do not fold, spindle or mutilate. No transfers issued until the bus comes to a complete stop. Package sold by weight, not volume. Your mileage may vary. Known as Hellman's east of the Rockies. Beware of greeks bearing gifts. Beware of gifts bearing greeks. This side up. Don't take any wooden nickels. Don't take candy from strangers. Void where prohibited. Caveat Emptor (Buyer beware) Caveat Vendor (Beware of street people). Donde esta el bano. Beware of DOS. Look both ways before crossing the street. All your base are belong to us. Always wear safety belt. Always wear deodorant. Don't forget to breathe. If you park, don't drink...accidents cause people. This supersedes all previous notices.
This modified disclaimer may not be copied without the expressed written consent of whoever I stole it from.
Re:Classic, funny disclaimer... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Jesus, enough already! (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, some fucknut tort lawyers would have to get real jobs, but I promise to lose 10^-30 seconds of sleep over that one.
Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming. Is that my alarm clock?
No web crawlers? (Score:5, Interesting)
[You shall not] Monitor or copy any Content by using any manual process, or any robot, spider, or other automatic device, without first obtaining American Airlines' prior written consent.
However:
$ wget http://www.aa.com/robots.txt
--10:23:00-- http://www.aa.com:80/robots.txt
=> `robots.txt' Connecting to www.aa.com:80... connected!
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not found
10:23:01 ERROR 404: Not found.
So they've not got a robots.txt file. Do they expect web crawlers to read and understand this also??
Holy Bullets Batman! (Score:4, Funny)
You know the EULA is too long when on a "you will not" clause, the bullets go all the way to the letter S
Anecdote... (Score:5, Interesting)
The sooner people realise that documentary complexity and volume doesn't gain advantages the better. It would be great to see a shift in opinion about such treatise requiring that the document be taken as a whole - and considered void in it's entirety should it contain anything redundant, unnecessarily convoluted or not legally binding. If this doesn't happen, I can only envisage licenses plummet further towards their own obsolescence.
Editors....do your job! (Score:4, Informative)
There is nothing at all newsworthy here, for nerds, or anyone else. Come on, editors...don't accept junk like this.
here's the kicker. (Score:5, Funny)
Mailorder privacy (Score:5, Insightful)
Airmail, anyone?
Verisign has them beat... (Score:5, Informative)
Why this story made it to /. (Score:5, Funny)
Run! /. has violated the agreement (Score:5, Funny)
Interesting read (Score:5, Funny)
PayPal TOS Much Longer (Score:5, Informative)
Re:probably makes it the most useless agreement (Score:5, Interesting)
What I'm not understanding is why don't we DOS their lawyers, by asking a LOT of technical questions about this "agreement." Like call the 800 number and tell them you have a question about para. 14, line 8 in the online agreement, and you'd like some clarification. Then send certified mail asking the same thing.
It wouldn't acomplish much, but it would make some poor schmuck's day at the office more miserable. Schadenfeude or whatever you call it. It would also be cool to know if there could be such thing of a write-in slashdot effect.
By the way, did you know that when you call AA to book a flight, you could be talking to a prison inmate? [africana.com] I feel warm and fuzzy just thinking about telling convicted felons the exact dates I won't be in my home.
Parent