Slashdot Log In
Gartner Survey: Consumers Don't Want Crippled CDs
Posted by
timothy
on Mon Oct 28, 2002 02:26 PM
from the ask-if-they-want-bunions-or-acne dept.
from the ask-if-they-want-bunions-or-acne dept.
robkill writes "According to GartnerG2, 77% of consumers believe they should be allowed to copy CD's for personal use in another device. 82% believe they should be allowed to make personal backup copies of CD's. Let's hope Senators Hollings and Berman are paying attention. More details can be found in this PC World article."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Hilary Rosen discovered this first hand (Score:4, Interesting)
A brief but detailed summary can be found here: http://tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk/~nick/UnionDebate/
Re:Hilary Rosen discovered this first hand (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Hilary Rosen discovered this first hand (Score:5, Insightful)
If a CD won't rip to MP3 I won't buy it, because I won't be able to listen to it the way I prefer to (on iPod). There are millions others like me.
Parent
Um... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
The RIAA is doing better than I thought (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The RIAA is doing better than I thought (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you have a graph or some history showing the increased popularity of the inability to copy cd's AND have solid proof it's the RIAA... I'll attribute the other 23% to other factors as well as the riaa.
-s
Parent
Re:The RIAA is doing better than I thought (Score:5, Insightful)
Not necessarily. My guess is that the majority of the 23% that said nay simply didn't care. Turn on the TV and watch some Jerry Springer - do you think people of such intellectual caliber would even know how to make a copy of the CD? If they don't even know how to make copies, why would they even care if they can make one or not?
Parent
Re:The RIAA is doing better than I thought (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
In other news, 99.92% of all customers don't want their products broken, according to a recent survey.
and around 99.99% of all citizens don't want to pay taxes...
Parent
Another survey question... (Score:4, Interesting)
Somehow I venture to believe the respondents might answer somewhere closer to 100%.
Re:Another survey question... (Score:4, Insightful)
Or
"Do you believe that businesses should be allowed to distribute media that prevents the illegal copying and re-distribution of their content?"
With art as in politics, it's all in where you draw the line.
Parent
Re:Another survey question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Another survey question... (Score:5, Insightful)
The questions I asked were posed to demonstrate that surveys tend to use loaded questions. In the case of the parent poster, the question is obviously loaded in favour of the 'consumer's rights' cause. The questions I proposed were obviously loaded in the other direction, and yet phrased in such a way that answering 'yes' doesn't appear disagreeable.
As for my first question. I understand fair use rights. I think they're good. However they do pose a problem, and that is what my first question is pointing to.
And I have no problem with them trying to prevent illegal copying and distribution, so long as it doesn't infringe on my legal copying.
Then you have a problem, as that is exactly what they are trying to do.
Parent
Re:Another survey question... (Score:4, Funny)
Q: Do you believe you are entitled to fair use of copyrighted works as provided under US copyright law?
42% What the hell is fair use?
27% Ernest Hemingway
18% Uh, are you guys with Elimidate?
7% Da na na na-na - HEY!
4% You know, I always fast forward through the FBI warning, so I really can't say
2% Yes
Parent
Crippled CDs? (Score:5, Funny)
They prefer to be called "digitally challenged" CDs.
Thank you.
Who are these people who answered otherwise? (Score:5, Funny)
82% believe they should be allowed to make personal backup copies of CD's.
In other news, 18% of consumers are thrilled that their new computer came with a retractible cup-holder.
My guess (Score:4, Interesting)
"Do you think you should be able to make backups of your music CDs to other media?"
"Well uh... no, I really don't care about that."
I'm sure there are some who have succombed to the propaganda, but probably not all, or even most, of the "no" people.
Parent
Consumers? (Score:5, Insightful)
When will the RIAA learn (Score:5, Insightful)
Case Study:
My mom comes by my appartment once in a while to say hi, and drop off a basket of fresh home baked muffins (thanks Mom). She hears, and likes the celtic songs playing on the stereo and asks who the artist is.
"It's a mix of artists I downloaded from the internet." I reply. Then burn a copy of the mp3s to a cd, and give it to her.
About a month later she has become hooked on a couple artists and has bought their cd's.
Variations of this scenario have played out a couple times and my mom has complained that every time I give her a CD of MP3s she ends up spending 100 bucks at A&B Sound.
I believe this is a common scenario. People download a bunch of songs and then every once in a while a particular artist strikes the right chord and they look for more music from that artist. The problem with the internet is that there is a lot of junk, and it is nearly impossible to download a whole album from one artist and get decent quality for every song. So many of us go out and by the CD.
Parent
How many people actually know about this issue (Score:5, Interesting)
Crippled CDs.. (Score:5, Funny)
I'm all for respecting peoples' various levels of abilities, but if they think I'm going to build a small ramp to my CD tray just so their crippled CDs can play.. well they've got another thing coming.
I'm calling the ACLU (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
No, really? (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you prefer:
1. CDs that you can listen to however/whenever you want
2. CDs that destroy your CD-ROM's firmware
Here's a wakeup call for Hollywood and all of the Software firms: when an American buys something, even a CD, movie, or program, he/she thinks that they now own it. that's how it's always been. That's how it still is with books. That's how it's going to be with your products once people get tired of your DRM antics.
18%? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm hoping the other 18% checked the 3) I don't understand this question option.
If 18% of the public believes they shouldn't have the right to back-up their own software, we should begin to panic.
Then again, 18% of the public probably believes in Santa Clause, including G. W. Bush, the Lesser.
Talisman
I also believe (Score:5, Insightful)
let's see, who do you think will have more influence - a poll that shows roughly 80% of constituents don't want a certain 'feature' (half of those constituents will likely be democrat, half republican. halve that again for the actual numbers that will vote..)
OR
the HUGE amounts of contribution money donated by industry to congressional representatives to ensure their voice is heard fairly.
In order to clear up consumer rights issues, you must first clear up congressional responsibility issues. Stop allowing corporations to be treated as more important citizens than the actual voting citizens first.
What consumers want...? (Score:4, Interesting)
Polls are not news; information that moves polls is. There was a day when journalists shunned polls, now they are the basis for a story.
It's a minor issue to most voters (Score:5, Insightful)
The vast majority of voters won't care a bit. Yes, they'd like non-crippled CDs, but that won't sway their voting. People usually vote based on whether someone is Republican or Democratic - the stance the candidate takes on important issues is (depressingly) unimportant to most people.
The real question... (Score:4, Interesting)
Voting (Score:5, Insightful)
RIAA has a tough time of counting the votes. If you buy crippleware, that counts as a "yes" vote for crippleware. If you don't buy crippleware, it's not really a "no" vote for crippleware, because any "no" votes are considered piracy.
An honest comparison would be the sales of otherwise identical albums, selling the crippled and uncrippled side-by-side for the same price. Until that happens, it's really like Saddam running against nobody in the Iraqi "election".
Parent
Pay for something that's free? (Score:5, Interesting)
BOTTLED WATER
Two words for you! (Score:5, Insightful)
LEAD PIPES!
Come to NYC and drink the tap water that has been sitting in 100 year old lead pipes before it comes out of your faucet. You will LOVE bottled water. Plus, you actually don't get free water unless you are sucking up the scummy lake or river water filled with parasites. Tap water is paid for by taxes. No matter what, "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."
Parent
Re: (Score:5, Insightful)
Backup? (Score:4, Interesting)
One thing that the synopsis fails to include is the like:
60 percent said they should be able to give copies of CDs to members of their families.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the RIAA and their heavy handed tactics, nor of the major media companies that are wringing every last dime out of the transaction at the expense of the artist and the consumer. But, by the same token, if no one is buying cds anymore, what impetous is there for your favourite band to bother making one?
Me. (Score:5, Insightful)
I do.
Really. I own two collector's editions of some very obscure music and I'd much rather play the backups than the original disks. So I make exact backups of them and then safely put the originals away.
I don't give them away to friends, I don't share them online through a P2P service, I don't do anything like that. I make a copy for the car and that's that. I want to keep the originals nice and safe; I use a copy for the car and Ogg for the computer.
When I buy a video game that requires me to use the CD, I try and use a copy as well, since I'd much rather risk accidently destroying a copy of my Warcraft III Collector's Edition (yeah, I know, Vivendi=Evil - quiet) then the original disk itself.
If I can figure out how to make a copy of UT2003 I'd do it to so I can let the original disks sit out of harms way (especially with the stupid "must have CD in the drive" shenanigans that often have disks out on top of the case during the burn of another disk or the install of something else - the joys of being a software developer under Windows - *sigh*).
Copy prohibition is only annoying for the legitimate purchases of content. The developers for UT2003 understood that and have admitted it in interviews. It's too bad that the publishing houses haven't figured that out yet and that I'm forced to have the stupid CD in my computer just so UT2003 can be convinced that even with a valid CD key I'm not some evil pirate.
When I buy music, I want to make an Ogg on my computer and a copy for my car. I then leave the disk safely away for potential future re-ripping and encoding to Ogg2 or the next great codec.
When my Dad buys a CD, he uses Roxio Easy-CD Creator to encode it to MP3 and then makes mixes of them for his car. My mother also encodes every CD she wants for easy access (although I don't know exactly what program she uses).
But notice that in these cases, we all legitamitely have the CD! I bought my copy of UT2003 and would be much obliged if Atari would trust me enough to use the game without the CD in the drive.
I have yet to see any of these restrictions doing anything to harm pirates. It just harms the honest consumer. I still buy CDs (a full four this year - and I haven't illegally downloaded anything else - and of those four, only two were through RIAA members) and support the companies that make games I like to play. But I still see the tracks available online, and know people who make copies of "copy protected" CDs simply to prove it's possible. And I'll bet all the real pirates of content and still happily selling their illegal $2 CDs out on the black market, laughing at means that only serve to force the honest user to either spend more money on additional CDs or give up functionality they've come to expect from their computers.
It annoys me.
Parent
Just a question... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why should the artist, who performs a song once, get paid every time someone wants to hear that song? They expend no additional effort regardless of how many times a CD is copied or their music is played.
Consider programming, for example. Most programmers are paid to produce something, and very few, if any, receive royalties every time their programs are run. Why should it be any different for "artists" - who like programmers, are creative, but considerable better compensated considering the actual amount of work they do.
Notice that I'm not saying that performers shouldn't be compensated, but rather that they aren't entitled to be compensated for doing nothing. I have no problem with paying to see an artist performing live, because in that case, they are actually working. But how am I depriving an artist of their "fair share" if I copy a CD that I wouldn't have paid for in the first place? What if I don't buy CD's, but rather just listen to the radio? Am I stealing then? (I enjoy the music, but I didn't pay for it!) What's the difference?
What it comes down to is plain and simple greed. The record companies and artists want to be compensated for doing nothing.
I'm not saying that a musician's life isn't hard, but no one forced these people to become musicians. A career in music is not an entitlement. If you can't make a living as a musician, actually performing live, then maybe you shouldn't be in the business.
Parent
Re:Backup? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think audio CDs should be backed up. If I had done proper backups, a certain rare CD which is no longer produced would not have been destroyed when the CD changer machine broke down.
Similarly, would you leave your original CDs in a car? I woudln't. That is why I burn copies of the legally purchased originals and play them in the car.
Parent
Not likely to help (Score:4, Interesting)
1. Ignorance. Most people don't know that there are people in Congress being payed to take those rights away from them. That would involve complex actions like searching out information (hey, it's not like the major media outlet owned papers are covering this issue in depth). It might even require the average American to read at a high school level, and we all know that's a pipe dream. And thus they won't find it out till it's too late. Which leads into..
2. Apathy. Nobody stands up for their rights any more. Especially when it's a little thing like copying a CD. Then having chips implanted into their TVs to prevent them from deviously recording the show they'll be missing while working the second job to pay for all their new compliant electronics. Then having to pony up tax money for the much needed "Buy Jack Valenti a gold plated limo every six months" fund when even those measures don't save the entertainment industry from the greed, idiocy, and fraud of those running it. Then having the FBI wiretap all communications, open all mail, and sneak hidden cameras into every home to make sure no piracy is occuring. Well, that's the ones who don't get drafted for our wars to fight terrorism in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Western Europe, China, Mexico, Canada, and New York.
From the pages of Duh Journal. (Score:5, Funny)
The way of CD-copying in Denmark (Score:5, Informative)
This, of course, has caused tons of contreversy, but the fact is, that the Danish government has recognized the right of the individual to manipulate, compile and even share legally purchased music...
I am not sure if this harms the music industry, and there has been talk about putting a small price on getting CDs from the library, but for now, it is totally free, and totally legal.
Oh... btw - artist of course get the regular royalties from people getting their CDs at the library... so they DO earn some from it.
- Tha Lamer, Tha Bunny...
Completely flawed premise (Score:5, Insightful)
>The copy-protected CDs limit users options--preventing them from making a copy of the CD to play in their car, for example, as one could with a cassette tape.
this is 100% BS.
Copy-protected CD do NOT stop someone from making a copy of the CD to play in their car, for example.
There is NO CD that can stop you from doing this.
1. Get a 1/8" to 1/8" cable from Radio Shack
2. Plug one end into a CD player that the CD plays in
3. Plug the other end into your computer
4. Hit "play" on the CD player at the same time you hit "record" on your computer's audio recording program.
99% of people will NOT be able to tell the difference when listening to the "unmakable" CD in their car.
They will, also, be able to make mixes.. that is, they can put tracks from MULTPILE "copy protected" circular-shiny-thingies-that-only-play-in-older-c
The only copy-protected music CD is the one that doesn't play in ANY CD player.
There is no way to stop me from copying the information from a media which allows me to hear, see, smell or taste. At least, not a copy which is "close enough" for me not to care that its a "perfect" copy.
Re:Completely flawed premise (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Why I haven't been buying CD's (Score:5, Insightful)
2. I can get (sometimes) lower quality stuff from free via P2P.
3. I'm afraid that it will be crippled
Combine #1 and #3 and #2 is the only choice left for me.
Some business models are just not meant to survive forever. The Recording Industry should have begun to realize this 4 or 5 years ago, when MP3's first began to become popular, but instead they missed the boat, and decided to fight anyone that got on the boat. Hurt your consumers. Hurt your musicians. Given the fact that many people see the Recording Industry as dishonest (anyone remember the fact that they were recently found guilty of price fixing?), it's no wonder why we don't feel the least bit guilty about downloading from Kazaa, Morpheus, etc.
Nevertheless, most people prefer to be honest, overall. If the music industry starts selling new MP3 songs for $1/song and old ones for $0.25/song, they would likely see their profits higher than ever before, and kazaa would simply become a fringe group of people.
Gartner Group... (Score:4, Funny)
Finally some solid numbers... (Score:5, Insightful)
I recently discovered that some of the MP3's I've ripped from CD's which I own now have just barely audible clicks and pops in the background. At first, I chalked it up to scratches, but upon observation of the original CD in perfect condition, realized that I had become a victim of the Cactus Data Shield.
So I've decided that I won't buy another CD until it's mandated by law that Copy Restricted CD's be clearly labeled. And then, I won't buy copy restricted CD's.
Quite frankly, I understand why people download music for free and don't believe it to be "theft" - they grew up listening to the radio, and expect free music. Even when they want to do the "right thing" and pay the artist, they find that what they get on the CD is wholly inferior to what they can download on the 'net for free. Why should someone pay for something that they aren't sure will even work with their audio equipment? Why would anyone spend money for something that might work with their system, when they can get the same music of better quality for free?
I can't help but wonder how many others have simply stopped buying CD's because they find that they can't listen to the music in the manner of their choosing.
They had to do a STUDY to find this out? (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Cost the same, most likely more than current CD's, which have increased in price even as the cost of production has decreased.
2. Have lower audio quality (if watermarked, ala SDMI) than current CD's.
3. Won't allow them to do as much as current CD's.
It's a lose-lose-lose for the customer. I'm shocked that they got a sample THAT HIGH that would put up with them.
In Other News: (Score:5, Funny)
A local Best Buy retailer was inundated with a crowd of screaming teenagers and adults who couldn't wait to get their hands on a new CD containing the latest in digital restrictions management technology.
"It's so amazing how far music has come in the last 5 decades.", said 18-year-old Tricia James, clutching her copy of the new CD, a reissue of Three Dog Night's 1970 release, Naturally.
"It's always the consumers who drive initiatives like this.", commente Hilary Rosen, chairperson of the RIAA,at a press conference this Wednesday. "Our customers demand stringent limitations that prevent freeloaders from getting out of paying for another CD if their original store-bought CD becomes too scratched to play, and we deliver them. It adds value to our product."
"And this is just the tip of the iceberg", interjected the MPAA chairman, Jack Valenti. "This same technology can be applied to television, food, and even movies. I can't believe that in the 100-or-so years film has been around, theater operators didn't realize that people have TWO eyes, effectively giving them two identical copies of the same movie, one of which isn't being paid for. We are developing a simple, fair solution for this: either the theater patron will pay double the normal price of a movie, or they will be forced to wear a pirate-like eye patch."
"But aren't pirates the people you are trying to get rid of?" inquired a skeptic reporter from the Philadelphia Observer. Hilary Rosen quickly and conclusively answered this one by saying "Ha ha, yeah, I guess that's a little ironic isn't it? Yaarrgh, maytee!".
However the teenagers at the Grassy Park Best Buy aren't quite THAT optimistic. "Eye patches? I mean I'm all for some more rights management, but it'll be som endeaver to pull it off" said an unsure 15-year-old named Brian Coqueville. "Maybe if they start putting cool corporate logos on the patches, I'll be interested."
Jill Holmsworth, 21 still too giddy after the purchase of her new crippled disc to talk about anything else. "It's like almost an S&M thing for me. You no, like when someone ties you up and you're like No! No more! but deep down inside you love that stable,predictable feeling that the restraints give you. DRM is just like that, only they're DIGITAL restrictions, which are like ten times as good!"
99% won't change behavior (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah but 99% of consumers will be totally unaware whether the CD in their hot little hands at Best Buy is "crippled" or not. Nor will they care enough to put it back if you pointed out the warning label. It's one thing to ask a question and to have people agree in principle...and quite another to gague the extent to which such an agreement might influence actual behavior. My guess is that it won't influence it enough to deter the RIAA from making a good go of crippled CDs.
"Personal Backups" (Score:5, Insightful)
Since I'm already paying a hidden fee that the RIAA's been building in to the cost of cds since the PMRC hearings in the '80's, and I'm paying an extra tax built into the cost of the CDR discs thanks to RIAA lobbying, they're already gouging me twice for the privelege of doing something to which I'm legally entitled anyway.
With the advent of these "copy-proof" cds, I have yet to see any mention of either of those taxes going away. As far as I can tell, I'd still be paying both those premiums, even if every cd on the market was 100% copy-proof. God bless America.
Re:And in recent news, (Score:5, Funny)
My, aren't we quite the optimist today?
Parent